Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[r3alist]

No, you only request that with Pakistanis. Sometimes with justification, but you're not a teacher, so stop behaving like, we have mods who do a good job here. Either that, or you are trying to score brownie points, please do that in another space, or change the flags by your name.

 

[MastanKhan]

[
Look, there are national/social issues involved if they were to use the armed version in the U.S. As a matter of fact, Americans jumped hard on that 'weapons of mass destruction' theory; however, it was a false intelligence. Where was the regret from the people who supported it?

In conclusion, don't mix social issues of a country to a geopolitical situation.

Hi,

why don't you tell it to the families of the innocent children and the families of the rape and sodomy victims----.

SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside.

The people and the world judges us and our character from what we do to our own and dear ones---that is what the world knows us by---and when an international issue comes up----all this dirt and that we have burried in our backyard---comes to the surface.

Nations look at us us and look at the legal precedence that we have setup in the past---the analysts will dig out all the dirt that they have about our legal system and throw it at our faces and let the world see it for itslef.

Social issues and geo-political issues sometimes are extremely close to each other than what one may want to admit.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Exactly, which is why Senator Kerry has said RD will face trial in the USA where he is under jurisdiction properly.

I find that claim by Kerry to be disingenuous, as was Obama's that the US is not being 'callous about the loss of life'. The US is being callous about the loss of Pakistani life, because we haven't heard a peep about investigating and punishing the driver of the vehicle that killed an innocent bystander, and even Kerry's offer to investigate Davis came after weeks of tensions, threats and bullying from the US.

Were the US really not being 'callous' about the loss of life, the first statements from the US would have been statements offering regret/apologies for the three dead, promises of investigations into the incidents, and then stating that they believed that Davis had diplomatic immunity and should be handed over to US authorities for investigation into the incident.

Instead, US statements and the US attitude in the days and weeks after the incident made clear that the US is callous about the loss of Pakistani life at the hands of gun toting (illegally) American officials running around Pakistan, and also exactly how the US views Pakistan - a country that it can threaten, insult and bully into complying with its demands.

 

[Solomon2]

Ok now the azzhole is being reffered to as an ambassador ... mindblowing .. !
The fact is , hes not even a Diplomat and his immunity is now being engineered, how come the US can change its image if it dosent supports the very laws which it dictates the politicians of pakistan to follow .
He was a spy being tracked and the azzhole killed those men when he was unable to shake off his tail... !
BTW what could be be the max punishement if hes proven a diplomat and then sent to US for his trial there , i m pretty sure he wont even be tried there. No matter what the guy wont enjoy such support when hel ultimately appear before GOD on the day of ressurection, If you do bad and get away with it,GOD does make sure ,it eaqualls out in the end.

"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." Neal Stephenson (Cryptonomicon)

Cute. But even sixteen-year-old Pakistanis choose their path in life. Will they choose the craven and easy path of immoral deception in the cause of slavery, or the brave yet difficult path of fighting for truth and freedom?

This thread strongly suggests to me the former, rather than the latter. Whether sixteen or sixty, what Pakistanis who refuse to realize the injustice of Davis' current imprisonment have to be proud of I don't know.

 

[Hulk]

I find that claim by Kerry to be disingenuous, as was Obama's that the US is not being 'callous about the loss of life'. The US is being callous about the loss of Pakistani life, because we haven't heard a peep about investigating and punishing the driver of the vehicle that killed an innocent bystander, and even Kerry's offer to investigate Davis came after weeks of tensions, threats and bullying from the US.

Were the US really not being 'callous' about the loss of life, the first statements from the US would have been statements offering regret/apologies for the three dead, promises of investigations into the incidents, and then stating that they believed that Davis had diplomatic immunity and should be handed over to US authorities for investigation into the incident.

Instead, US statements and the US attitude in the days and weeks after the incident made clear that the US is callous about the loss of Pakistani life at the hands of gun toting (illegally) American officials running around Pakistan, and also exactly how the US views Pakistan - a country that it can threaten, insult and bully into complying with its demands.

AM the key missing point in this whole argument is right or wrong, we all do wrong things. If you are looking for them to abide by norms, someone you have to do the same. They will also find something similar which will not be comfortable to you. No one is saint.

 

[Solomon2]

The document shows that Davis gets $ 0.2 million per annum as salary.

Not a U.S. government document. Not a pay slip, either. It could be Davis' invoice to the government for providing his services under contract. I imagine this would have been presented months ago to the Pakistani Foreign Office as part of the U.S. government's process of establishing his diplomatic credentials.

Do Pakistanis really understand why a man like Davis has to have full diplomatic immunity to do his job? Because he has to protect ambassadors and their staffs and must have license to use deadly force to do so. The immunity has to be full so that the sending country's enemies can't be tempted to capture and compromise the security man when he is by himself.

Davis' story appears less interesting the longer I consider it. Stations in Pakistan have long been considered among the U.S. State Department's most dangerous posts. It isn't surprising, then, that security is by a more-skilled-than-usual contractor rather than a State Dept. employee.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I was referring to extreme positions taken by some Pakistanis who live in the west. It was not necessarily referring only to this particular subject but did include it. It was made in context of some posts made by other members.

And my point is that those 'extreme positions', depending on the issue (currently on the Raymond Davis issue) are shared by many Pakistanis resident in Pakistan. Many of the anti-Western commentators and journalists who allegedly contribute to 'anti-western sentiment', reside in Pakistan, and most polls that illustrate a deep dislike and distrust of the US are also conducted in Pakistan, not amongst overseas Pakistanis. So I fail to see any justification in your argument, especially in the current case of Raymond Davis.

Now what is true is that often the contributors on online Pakistani fora are overseas Pakistanis, but that is likely the result of that particular demographic being more comfortable communicating in English online, and seeking out such platforms. The only way to substantiate your argument would be to perhaps provide polling data on certain issues that illustrates a disconnect between the views of Pakistanis resident in Pakistan and those resident overseas.

The argument is as follows. Some have argued here that Pakistan must be willing to burn bridges with the U.S. and that the economic & other costs, if any of such action is somehow worth it. My point was that such comments opens a non resident Pakistani to the charge of being duplicitous since such sacrifices are not shared directly by them. Some(NRP'S) here who take extraordinarily extreme positions should be asked why they don't walk the talk & stand by their convictions. This is true on this subject as well as on those advocating more stringent religious laws.

You could argue that they are being disingenuous, but at the same time many of these positions are shared by many in Pakistan as well, as is indicated by the polling data showing a majority of Pakistanis in favor of 'Shariah Law' (however they define it) and ending the relationship with the US. So one could argue that the overseas Pakistanis advocating in favor of such positions are doing so because they share the same ideology, political and religious views as many resident Pakistanis, and therefore focusing on the resident status of overseas Pakistanis does not advance the discussion in a constructive manner.

I have made no comment on the merits of this particular case except to suggest very early on this thread that Pakistan must not rush headlong into a unwinnable battle which in the end would only serve to exacerbate internal fissures. Have stayed out of this argument since. I have no issues with the merit of the positions taken by many Pakistanis(you included) on this case except for the practicality of such a position.

Comments on the practicality of any position being advocated are fine, but given that there appears to be no disconnect between the views of a majority of resident Pakistanis and overseas Pakistanis, accusing OSP's of being duplicitous is an irrelevant argument.

Btw, your last comment on focusing on the argument & not on the person making them would have carried more weight if you hadn't said this.

I am afraid what I said is the truth - it is almost always Indians who raise this canard of 'OSP's being more nationalistic' on various issues, ostensibly to discredit the arguments being made by painting those making them as some sort of distant, out of touch elite, residing overseas where they are immune from the consequences of their proposals and positions. It is a distraction from the actual argument itself, and is only a valid point to make if you have evidence supporting your position that the 'overseas Pakistanis' are advocating a position that many resident Pakistanis would not support.

I have made these same arguments dozens of times since I started actively commenting on Pakistani affairs, almost always in response to Indians, which is why I pointed that out.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM the key missing point in this whole argument is right or wrong, we all do wrong things. If you are looking for them to abide by norms, someone you have to do the same. They will also find something similar which will not be comfortable to you. No one is saint.

Feel free to point out when Pakistan does wrong on the relevant thread - I believe many of us have done that on various issues, such as the GoP's positions on Blasphemy laws, Ahmadis etc.

This thread however is on the Raymond Davis issue, and Obama declared that the US was 'not being callous about the loss of life'. Pointing out exactly how he (the US) is being callous, and calling him and Kerry out for their disingenuous claims given the facts, is relevant and appropriate.

 

[VCheng]

I find that claim by Kerry to be disingenuous, as was Obama's that the US is not being 'callous about the loss of life'. The US is being callous about the loss of Pakistani life, because we haven't heard a peep about investigating and punishing the driver of the vehicle that killed an innocent bystander, and even Kerry's offer to investigate Davis came after weeks of tensions, threats and bullying from the US.

Were the US really not being 'callous' about the loss of life, the first statements from the US would have been statements offering regret/apologies for the three dead, promises of investigations into the incidents, and then stating that they believed that Davis had diplomatic immunity and should be handed over to US authorities for investigation into the incident.

Instead, US statements and the US attitude in the days and weeks after the incident made clear that the US is callous about the loss of Pakistani life at the hands of gun toting (illegally) American officials running around Pakistan, and also exactly how the US views Pakistan - a country that it can threaten, insult and bully into complying with its demands.

You make some good points Sir.

I agree with you that the matter should, and could, have been dealt with with much greater sensitivity and compassion from both governments, specially with regards to the families, and in particular, the poor young lady who chose to commit suicide. That alone speaks volumes as to how badly the situation was handled. Your criticism in this matter is absilutely justified.

The outrage being shown is quite justified too, but that comes from the bruised dignity of a proud people. I know, I was once one of them, and I can perfectly identify with them still.

However, the sad but painful truth is that the dignity of the nation has been long sold down the river over decades. So when you write " a country that it can threaten, insult and bully ", what you really should say is " a governance apparatus that it can threaten, insult and bully ". I am truly sad to say that the reason for this perceived behavior of the US government is the Pakistani elite, who are beholden lock, stock, and barrel (including illegal foreign accounts, offshore properties, green cards for children and siblings etc. etc.) to their masters.

What you are complaining of is merely the master coming to collect his dues. Nothing more.

That is why I have said all along, the time to sort is all out is after this matter has been resolved according to the present rules of the game. We all need to go home, regroup, and then work hard over decades so that when the next match comes, as it inevitably will, the rules can be different.

We do have that potential, but it is up to us to realise it.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Cute. But even sixteen-year-old Pakistanis choose their path in life. Will they choose the craven and easy path of immoral deception in the cause of slavery, or the brave yet difficult path of fighting for truth and freedom?

This thread strongly suggests to me the former, rather than the latter. Whether sixteen or sixty, what Pakistanis who refuse to realize the injustice of Davis' current imprisonment have to be proud of I don't know.

What immoral Deception, The guy killed two people and ramed the other one to death and one of the victims wife commited sucide just beacuse of one man, Forget Viena conventions I fail to understand upon which moral grounds is Mr Davis imprisionment is being declared unjust. Is this what they teach you guys back in US, that you hypocrytically stick to laws when they provide even a slightest corridor to dodge, Are there no moral ethics , no human values , This thread should strongly suggest that Americans are enslaved to follow the hypocrytic trends under the man made laws to even deny the slightest of moral values , or should they be bold enough to accept whats wrong and have the courage to say the wrong Wrong and resort to slightest of moral ethics,but i fear theyl stick to the former.
America Despite being an un matched super power cannot afford to let go a murderous act by a person who bears no sanity speaks volumes of immoral Deception and distortion of truth under the blanket of blind hypocrycy ... This cant be a Super power.
Davis will be realeased but what good does it brings to America instead of public hatered, You dont win hearts and minds by sending in retard mercanaries who just kill innocent people in broad daylight and yet get away with it,GOA has shown its true colours under the blind support of Mr Davis while ignoring the legitimate concerns of masses of Pakistan, that what measures its willing to take to even save a criminal act of an american while chanting about the talibans beating up women while zipping there mouths when it comes to afghan druglords encapsulated in a puupet gov in afghanistan. Certinly people can now easily point out the parallels btw the alikes of taliban and alikes of those who treated people at gitmo and abu gharib worst than dead pigs....!!!

 

[Solomon2]

just wanted to say one thing here...

truth is not always what USA believe in....

Sure. When shown wrong we change our minds. What do you do, sir?

...also immunity to Davis need to be confirmed by FO and Court now -

By treaty the court system is not involved when a diplomat has immunity. Since Davis IS in jail, don't you consider it more likely that Pakistani officials are trying to obscure his immunity rather than (1) admit to their lack of competence and (2) expose themselves to attacks, verbal or otherwise, by extremists?

.... say thing what ever you want to but the FACT IS HE KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE IN LAHORE

The police at the scene of the killing did not believe that. I'm not sure that even the higher-ranking police officials who call for a murder investigation (to hide their own cravenness or incompetence) make such a sweeping claim.

That was three things! What you really meant to say was, "I want to make my claims without being contradicted" is that not so?

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Letter to Mr.Hussain Haqqani (Pak Ambassador in Washington)
Sir if I'm not wrong, you have the same or even more immunity in US as claimed by the American dude Davis who shot 2 people in Pakistan.
Forget Killing someone, just go and Slap the person next door.
and see how vienna convention works in Washington.

 

[Solomon2]

What immoral Deception, The guy killed two people and ramed the other one -

Whoa! Nitro, has your anger made you blind? Davis killed two people. The third was killed by somebody else.

Forget Viena conventions I fail to understand upon which moral grounds is Mr Davis imprisionment is being declared unjust.

It is Davis' imprisonment in Pakistan that is unjust because under the Vienna convention the U.S. has jurisdiction. If it really believes Davis committed a crime the GoP can kick him out of the country and insist he be prosecuted in the U.S. Pakistani police can present evidence there.

We really do have a good court system in this country. I understand, however, that the Pakistani press is really bad and has played a major role in shaping your perceptions. How are Pakistanis supposed to learn better if you don't keep an open mind and make an effort to discover and promote true facts yourself?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As far as I can tell, Obama did not even offer 'regrets', let alone an apology, at the loss of life:

"“Obviously, we’re concerned about the loss of life. We’re not callous about that, but there is a broader principle at stake,” Obama said."​

And the one basic rule of communications, when it comes to sincere apologies, don't add a 'but'. So we have an expression of 'concern', and then a 'but', which amounts pretty much to 'callousness'.

 

[Solomon2]

Letter to Mr.Hussain Haqqani (Pak Ambassador in Washington)
Sir if I'm not wrong, you have the same or even more immunity in US as claimed by the American dude Davis who shot 2 people in Pakistan.
Forget Killing someone, just go and Slap the person next door.
and see how vienna convention works in Washington.

And what will that slap do for you, Nitro?