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Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

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Let me again point out that three shots were fired INTO the Amerian's windshield, photos of record in # 241, 242, and in the Friday, Jan. 28, 2011 LONDON GUARDIAN photo of car with back window blown out...from the bullets that passed through the windshield and out through the rear window of the same car.

Mr American Eagle.
There is a armature camera footage showing David trying to escape in his white civic after the shoot out hitting other cars, while a traffic warden is trying to stop him.

The main point to notice is that, the rear windscreen of the car is intact, not a single scratch on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJQ5BxgL37I
Look yourself @0.08 to 0.20

This is footage is of while he was escaping, the other videos show the car parked with the rear windscreen broken. What mysteriously shattered the rear windscreen?

P.S there is another video from a cctv camera of a nearby building aired on a news channel today, which shows him speeding away after the incident and the crowd trying to stop him. In the end he escaped.. Point to be noticed again is the rear windscreen was intact.
I will try to post the video later, when it is uploaded on youtube.

Give your expert and unbiased comments on this video evidence.
 
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I am interested that anyone and everyone has self opinions or self created versions which may or may not pan out under official investigation.

My views are unchaged. Shots thru front windshield took out the rear window of the American's car.

Also, as an aside, his name is Davis and I suspect he is a Protestant, since even that topic has been attempted by arm chair kids writing here from inside Europe and Canada
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Let the facts clearly speak for themselves and folks here stop trying to know it all when they don't.

There are enough conflicting opinions, none are facts, to gag a mule here.
 
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if those were killed were robbers than to fire back and kill those was infact a favour for us

Totally agreed thats what I've been saying to people all along. If that's proven to be true, he should be acquitted of murder and still be charged and fined for carrying an illegal weapon and also given a criminal record for it.

I mean imagine if one of our own had done this; he'd probably been given a gold medal for killing robbers. Even an article i read claimed the police had been looking for these 2 named people for a while which gives me more reason to believe the poor guy did indeed act in self-defense.

But let's wait and see. I read today that according to police, he has had some military training on his background and is able to communicate in Urdu, so that's something more to be suspicious of his intentions.
 
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Who believes what they read in any newspaper?

How about people in North America for starters? Hollywood, CNN, foxnews and other biased, prejudiced forms of media are the source of info for the typical northern American. Its true dude.

But don't get me wrong I want this guy to have a fair and just trial without pressure from the families of those killed
 
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The major difference between worldwide free world media and this specific site's baloney writers is that when worldwide media has photos and videos of what has or has not happened, it is not talked to death contrary to the visual facts all the public can see.

EXAMPLE: A writer here today claims the American car rear window was in, then was out. I looked at the video and pix currently avaiable on line here, on this Thread, and this is simply not true.

The bullet holes in the windshield match up 100% with the bullets having passed through the car, blowing out the rear window.

False allegations of "you can see on the video the car still had it's rear window" are absolutely untrue, as in false. Rear window is gone, shot out, a few shards of rear window, very few, are visible around the edges of the rear window. With various angles on the rear window one shot has you looked through the blown out rear window into the the NOT blow out but several bullet holes in the windshield.

No one can fake this one. Clear cut situation of terrorists, others refer to them as robbers,
point is they were not innocents and the Pakistani Police had arrest warrants out for both for questioning before this shooting event.

Leaping to conclusions here has been disgraceful when contrasted with the paucity of condoling the day before when suicide bomber killed and maimed many right there in same city, Lahore.

It just boggles a honest persons mind how some people can just defy obvious visual facts, make up lies, or create after the fact witnesses who are suddenly of record but weren't there when events first unfolded on the scene. False witnesses are criminals in and of themselves you know.
 
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sorry but i have to respond to this. some people are making up 'facts'

:blink::blink: he was carrying against the law. No foreigner can carry arms.

Wrong. As long as they are authorized by local government (which some are) they can carry, but again they need that special permit.

Secondly the bullets from his weapon killed three Pakistanis are a banned ITEM by International rules. He also failed to produce the license of the weapon neither any document

He killed two. The third was killed by reckless driving of other americans coming to his aid.

Thirdly the two bikers which he killed were carrying licensed weapon as per Punjab Law minister speaking on TV. SO now tell me who the heck will use licensed arms for robbery or any other crime?
How about to posses the weapon in the first place? You seriously dont think there has never been a case of criminals using registered weapons in a crime. Do you think carrying a registered weapon is justified to approach someone with it? Not that it justifies the American carrying an illegal weapon.
 
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US consulate official handed over for six-day physical remand

US Consulate official, who shot dead two motorcyclists in Lahore, was produced in a court on Friday which handed over the accused to the police on six-day physical remand.

Raymond Davis, the man involved in the shooting, has been described by the US embassy in Islamabad as a consular official working for the US Consulate in Lahore. "The US embassy is working with Pakistani authorities to determine the facts," the US embassy statement said.

A third person was also run over and killed by a vehicle of the US consulate carrying Davis's colleagues as they rushed to his aid, police and witnesses said. Police said that the foreigner contacted his colleagues for help immediately after the shooting. "The third person killed was run over by the vehicle as it sped to his aid" said a traffic police official who saw the incident.

Police registered a case against Davis on after a protest in front of the Lytton Road police station for murder under Section 302. Following the incident, a large number of motorists and locals gathered outside Lahore's Old Anarkali police station and blocked the road by burning tyres. They chanted slogans against the police and demanded immediate arrest of the accused US official.

Raymond Davis told the court that he had fired his gun in self-defence. Mr Davis is said to have told police that the two men riding on motorcycle had been trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint. Pakistani investigators have said the two men were probably robbers, although their relatives dispute this.

A senior police official Faisal Rana said it had been confirmed that the US Consulate official had withdrawn money from an ATM before the incident. He said it also implied that the motorcyclists having pistols were chasing the US Consulate official.

Lahore's police chief, Aslam Tareen said that Davis was employed on security duties in the consulate. According to Pakistani authorities, he did not have diplomatic immunity and was not one of the foreign security personnel allowed to carry firearms.

One of the shot motorcyclists has been identified in the Pakistani media as Faizan Haider, who was thought to be in his early 20s. Observers say that the incident could inflame anti-American sentiment in the country.

The issue of American diplomats or their security detail carrying weapons inside Pakistan was a hot subject in local media last year. The issue was even raised by opposition parties in the parliament, after some armed US officials were stopped by the police.

However, most of western diplomats travel with armed guards in many parts of Pakistan because of the risk of terrorist attacks.

US consulate official handed over for six-day physical remand - The Times of India
 
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sorry but i have to respond to this. some people are making up 'facts'



Wrong. As long as they are authorized by local government (which some are) they can carry, but again they need that special permit.



He killed two. The third was killed by reckless driving of other americans coming to his aid.


How about to posses the weapon in the first place? You seriously dont think there has never been a case of criminals using registered weapons in a crime. Do you think carrying a registered weapon is justified to approach someone with it? Not that it justifies the American carrying an illegal weapon.

sorry but i have to respond to this. some people are making up 'facts'
Care to name those "people"?

Wrong. As long as they are authorized by local government (which some are) they can carry, but again they need that special permit.

And he did not have nor seek special permit, BTW this special permit request is usually "ignored" by Min. Interior and only provided to US State Dept BDS(Bureau of Diplomatic Security/Secret Service/or DOD Assets escorting VIPs on are-determined route.

Furthermore the list of officials travelling "Hot" are to be submitted to SSP Special Branch, SSP Security Police and CCPO Office. Another list is shared with the military and civil intelligence agencies on a need to know basis.

PLEASE NOTE:

There is a reason we have Diplomatic Security Police / DPD, there is a reason the U.S. Counsulate has clear SOPs that are designed to be followed.

There is a reason why all movement of "official" staff should be communicated to the RSO: Regional Security Officer and cascaded to the local law enforcement system.

This area of Lahore is "Off Limits" to Officials. Let me just share something to enlighten you:

Tips on How to Avoid Becoming a Victim

General Safety:
· Maintain a low profile and avoid wearing clothing that labels you as an American
· Situational awareness and common sense are imperative for your personal safety
· Avoid the appearance of carrying large sums of money
· Avoid high-risk areas, crowds, and civil disturbances
· Don’t be time and place predictable and always vary your routes
· If you feel that you are being followed or threatened in any way, immediately procede to a safe place such as a government building or police station

Driving safety tips:
· Whether you are driving or riding as a passenger, use extreme caution, expect the unexpected, and drive defensively.
· Expect others to ignore road signs and traffic lights.
· Proceed through these intersections with caution.

Hotels and Lodging:
· As of March 2010, the Avari Hotel is the only RSO-approved hotel for USG personnel to stay in Lahore
· Other hotels are approved for use of restaurants and services
· Personal security is paramount
· Valuables should not be left in rooms
· U.S. government personnel are advised to stay on lower floors in a hotel as fire fighting resources are severely lacking

Police Response

The police services in Pakistan are below the professional standards in the United States due to low levels of training, resources, and salaries. However, the Punjab Police are among the most professional in Pakistan. The U.S Consulate Lahore maintains an excellent relationship with local police who provide unrivaled support.

Road Safety

The roadways in Lahore continue to improve, although the traffic in the city and the lack of highway traffic patrols have littered the streets with vehicular debris. Driving is also made dangerous by:
· Typical lack of experience driving on the left side of the road
· Poorly trained and unskilled local drivers
· Pedestrians, horse carts, and cattle walking in the road without concern of oncoming traffic

The majority of Consulate staff utilize the Motorpool drivers for daily driving. The roads have limited markings and are poorly lit for night time driving. Because of this, driving at night outside the city is prohibited without approval of the Regional Security Office (RSO).

The government of Pakistan is proactively countering the indigenous and transnational terrorist threat in Pakistan, with continued military operations in NWFP. Terrorist cells have been aggressively targeting official facilities in Punjab Province in retaliation. Because of this, the government has implemented tough security countermeasures and precautions to protect officials, diplomats, and areas frequented by westerners.

Source: OSAC Crime and Security Report Lahore 2010
https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=9210

American officials in Lahore and Islamabad are instructed to restrict the frequency and to minimize the duration of trips to public markets, restaurants, and other locations. Depending on ongoing security assessments, the U.S. Embassy places areas such as hotels, markets, and/or restaurants off limits to official personnel.
Source: Warden Message: Issued by the Islamabad Embassy.
Available at: OSAC.gov


Now tell me, there is line upon line of protocol designed to avoid this sort of thing, tell me was it not a BREACH of protocol designed to PROTECT people like him?
 
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This American suvaar should be hanged to death for carrying a weapon and cruising in a car with a fake license number.

I heard one victim's was about to get married in a few month.
 
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@ ranger. Read my entire posts and also see who they are quoting. I never suggested this guy had authorized weapons, but you didnt read it.
Try not to react emotionally. Anyways I found an article of interest. I think it explains our governments reaction to the American diplomats which they describe as "harassment"

Also it's doubtful that this post is reliable in claiming the US government is pressuring Pakistan to hand over this chap. I doubt Americans would sacrifice their interests over one individual. Already their sending theyre soldiers to die in Iraq and Afghanistan and many suspect they killed their own people on 911 to invade Afghanistan so why should this guy matter?

Anyways here's the article

Will the American be handed over to US?

ISLAMABAD: Islamabad is under pressure to hand over Raymond Davis, an American who killed two Pakistanis in Lahore, to US Embassy for his early return to the US, it was learnt.

Informed Foreign Office sources confided to The News here late Friday night that the foreign ministry was under tremendous pressure from Washington to free the killer of two Pakistanis. The US State Department is seeking diplomatic immunity for Raymond Davis though the Pakistani Foreign Office does not recognise the killer as a diplomat.

These sources said that in a top level contact between the US State Department and Pakistani foreign ministry, the former sought for consular access as well as diplomatic immunity for the killer.

The government authorities have stated that the law of the land would be followed in the case. The Foreign Office has informed the federal government that the American was not a diplomat who did not enjoy diplomatic immunity. The FO also stated that Raymond Davis has violated the law of the land by carrying a weapon within the territorial limits of Pakistan, it was learnt.

Sources in the Prime Minister’s Secretariat said the interior minister had been briefed by the Foreign Office on the subject and had been told that even diplomats were not allowed to carry licensed weapons outside the premises of their respective embassies and consulates.

Raymond Davis, who killed two Pakistani youth in broad daylight on Thursday in Lahore alleging that they were robbers while the third young man was crushed to death by a US Consulate jeep, initially told the Lahore police that he was a technical adviser but later it turned out that he was in Pakistan on a “business official” visa.

He holds a diplomatic passport but not a diplomatic visa, which guarantees diplomatic immunity under the UN conventions. The last page of his passport has the State Department’s endorsement that the officer is on a diplomatic assignment but Pakistani Embassy in Washington did not issue him a diplomatic visa.

The Foreign Office is said to have clearly told the interior minister that the American does not enjoy the status of a diplomat. Police suspect that Davis is an undercover agent. While Davis surrendered himself to the police after he was caught red-handed by the mob at the site of the killing and was stopped from escaping, the Punjab government approached the US authorities here to hand over the vehicle and the driver, which crushed the youth to death while trying to reach Davis, violating the traffic laws and driving on the wrong side of the road.

The vehicle could not reach Davis but succeeded in driving away and took refuge in the American Consulate. Last year, when two Dutch diplomats were caught red handed while carrying weapons, including hand-grenades, in Islamabad they were allowed to go scot-free despite Foreign Office spokesman’s clear statement that no foreign diplomat, whether American or Dutch or belonging to any other country, was permitted to carry weapons within the territorial limits of Pakistan.

On that occasion, the Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit was quoted to have said that those diplomats who were still carrying weapons were behaving inconsistently with the law of the land.

Interestingly, in the last year’s Dutch diplomats’ case, the Secretariat police formally lodged the complaint against them besides nominating in the report a US embassy’s local employee, Sunny Christopher, for unnecessarily intervening into the Dutch diplomats’ episode.

Some newspaper reports suspect a Dutch-US connection. Some allege that the Dutch were transporting the weapons to the US Embassy. However, US Embassy spokesman had denied these reports.

Although, the latest Lahore “adventure” of the US officials/diplomats is very serious, there have been repeated incidents of American officials/diplomats carrying weapons in public. According to an intelligence report, published by The News, on June 23, 2009 a double cabin vehicle coming from the NWFP side passed through a police checkpost at Golra where the police tried to stop it for checking but it did not stop. The police passed on a wireless message to the next checkpost considering it a suspicious vehicle. It was intercepted at a check post at Khyber Chowk, G-9/4.

The report said that three American diplomats namely Jeffery, Jeffdic and James Bill Koeen and a driver named Charlie Benzic belonging to Regional Security Section of the US Embassy were found in the vehicle. They were wearing Shalwar Kameez, had beards, were in Pathan get-up and carrying four M-4 machine guns and four 9 mm pistols. The report, however, said that on the intervention of the then SP Sadar, the vehicle was allowed to go.

In yet another incident, according to the report, on August 5, 2009, Inspector Hakim Khan of Islamabad Police was passing through a checkpost near the US Embassy along with his wife in a private car, he was stopped by a US security official John Arso and was abused. Once the police inspector told the US official that the latter could not check vehicles on a public road, the US diplomat took out his pistol and said that he could do anything anywhere in Pakistan.

Hakim Khan later formally reported the matter and lodged a complaint with his superiors. No criminal proceedings were initiated against the American but he was sent back to Washington.

According to a media report, it was considered to get John Arso declared persona non grata and the matter was also referred to the Foreign Office but before the FO could proceed on the matter, the Islamabad Police high ups and the US Embassy resolved the matter by reaching a compromise.

In yet another incident, on August 12, 2009 a young Pakistani boy, living in the Diplomatic Enclave, along with his two friends was passing through a private security checkpost near the US Embassy on a Suzuki car when a US Marine, who was jogging along with his wife, on the same road, stopped the car and broke it side mirror by kicking at it.

The Marine, the report said, also abused the boy and the host country too. The young boy and his friends protested following which the US Marine got them detained by the local security guards present there. They were allowed to go after 40 minutes of detention but only with caution that they would never drive again on that particular road.

In another incident, on August 26, 2009, one Mohsin Bukhari, owner of Shell petrol pump, Sector F-6 (Super Market) was stopped by two US nationals at the traffic signal on the Agha Khan Road, near Marriot Hotel after some routine road driving tension. He was asked to show his identity and then taken to his petrol pump and questioned for 30 minutes after a team of security staff from the US Embassy also joined the two Americans.

According to the intelligence report, Bukhari is the nephew of Syed Nayyer Bukhari, the Leader of the House in the Senate.

In yet another incident, the report said, on August 28, 2009 at about 14:00 hours, two vehicles of US Embassy (one five door Prado and one double cabin) were intercepted by the local police on the Kashmir Highway near Peshawar Mor. The vehicles had fake number plates. Initially, the passengers of the vehicles resisted checking but later following the arrival of some security officials, they were requested to allow the police to check them as per the law of the land.

Upon checking, four Americans, who were identified as Pickel Robin Kenneth, Lister Douglas Michael, Clen Denen Jason Robert and Steele Jr Richard Earl, introduced themselves as US Army officials. They were carrying four M-4 rifles and ammunition with them. They did not have any license or authority letter for carrying these weapons.

Upon inquiry, they told that they were working with the Frontier Corps, NWFP, but failed to produce any evidence in support of their statement. They were accompanied by one Ahmedullah, an Afghan national, who is said to be living in the US Embassy without any valid travel document or passport. He just carried a letter from the US Embassy.
 
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It is a well known trick in the US to put a knife in the victim's hands after you shoot someone. That way you can claim self-defence.

This Rambo here is a professional. After he shot the two guys, he calmly went over there, took out the guy's gun and put it in his hands to make it seem as if he had drawn it, and then photographed it as evidence.

I suspect he is too smart to leave his prints on the victim's gun, but it would be worth checking anyway.
 
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It is a well known trick in the US to put a knife in the victim's hands after you shoot someone. That way you can claim self-defence.

This Rambo here is a professional. After he shot the two guys, he calmly went over there, took out the guy's gun and put it in his hands to make it seem as if he had drawn it, and then photographed it as evidence.

I suspect he is too smart to leave his prints on the victim's gun, but it would be worth checking anyway.

How much did you pay for viewing it live on your crystal ball?
 
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Its time for some good Pakistani leather chitrool for US official..what a taste he will take back home to remember for life! I wish i could gift a bottle of fresh olive oil to concerned police station to add some flavor to chitrools!
 
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How much did you pay for viewing it live on your crystal ball?

No need for crystal balls. This is a well-known tactic by professionals.

I am not saying he did it, but the fact that he calmly walked over there after shooting those two people, and methodically took photographs shows he is a professional in this matter.
 
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