Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[VCheng]

Obama's opinions means squat to us. American justice system means squat to us.

This has now taken the shape of a people's movement. Perhaps now you'll only see Taliban as the people of Pakistan, but that won't be anything new, in fact such stereotyping is quite American.

We have actual evidence of guilt, we have no presentation of immunity papers from the Pakistani FO, we have only demanded he go to trial, and expose all these hair brained theories of ours as false and uphold the truth, justice and American way!

If your man is immune, then present those papers. If your man is innocent then fight in court. There is no door #3 where you can say "We say he is immune and he's innocent and he won't go to court".

All I can say here, once again, is that the two week delay is a good thing to allow cooler minds to prevail!

 

[Pak_Sher]

Pakistan has ratified the Vienna Convention in 1972.

In other words, the Vienna Convention IS Pakistan's law too.

See post # 3570. We are using Vienna Convention as toilet paper for people who think Pakistan as trash.

 

[iPhone]

The due process of law entails the hard fact that Raymond Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. Period.

Beyond that a legal process exists in the US whereby the US Dept. of Justice that will determine what the facts of the incident were and are, objectively, honestly, and fairly, without cries of "hang the bum" from overseas Pakistanis who are not even living and working inside Pakistan to help build the currently weak democracy there into a strong, robust democracy.

Therefore, politely but strongly meant, some of you who continue to jump on the theme of bash Mr. Davis are out of sequence in your level of understanding and are very premature.

Mr. Davis has to first be removed from Pakistan via Diplomatic Immunity, as vouched for by none other than President Obama on live TV interview this week now ending here in the US.

Diplomatic Immunity has nothing to do with your misconcepts or self version of how you would wish Mr. Davis to be handled and treated.

that's all fine and dandy but what about the victims being robbers part?? honestly, if you went into a courtroom and you told the judge this guy is a robber or a burglar because it was in the newspaper the judge is gonna look at you like you have 9 heads. I'm not trying to be a smart*** here but let me tell you a little about the law, what's reported in press conferences, newspapers or online forum boards has no bearings whatsoever in the courtroom. Police does investigation and share findings with the prosecutors and defense lawyers, who in return do their due deligence to see if the investigation was done properly and the case goes to court.
Trust me, if these guys were indeed robbers, there is no way the police or anyone can cover it up because the criminal records are public. Somebody would've made their criminal background public by now, if they had any, it doesn't take that long.

 

[Awesome]

Pakistan has ratified the Vienna Convention in 1972.

In other words, the Vienna Convention IS Pakistan's law too.

And read the Pakistani law that states that the determination of immunity rests with the federal government. The Federal government has said it will present the case and have it decided upon by the Judicial system as per Pakistani law.

So... so what? The entire debate started off when the Americans and the American loyalists tried to circumvent the Pakistani law.

 

[The HBS Guy]

And read the Pakistani law that states that the determination of immunity rests with the federal government. The Federal government has said it will present the case and have it decided upon by the Judicial system as per Pakistani law.

So... so what? The entire debate started off when the Americans and the American loyalists tried to circumvent the Pakistani law.

You're not getting it. The matter of diplomatic immunity doesn't rest with the courts. It rests with the FO.

Why is taking your FO so long to confirm or deny such a simple matter as diplomatic status of a person?

You're trying to hide the failures of YOUR foreign office.

 

[Awesome]

The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan judge orders arrest of U.S. car driver

The arrest warrant could add to the tensions surrounding the case of the shooter, Raymond Allen Davis. The U.S. insists he was acting in self—defence against robbers and qualifies for diplomatic immunity because he worked for the embassy.

A judge on Friday ordered the arrest of the driver of a U.S. vehicle that struck and killed a Pakistani while rushing to help an American detained in a pair of fatal shootings, a lawyer for the victim’s family said.

The arrest warrant could add to the tensions surrounding the case of the shooter, Raymond Allen Davis. The U.S. insists he was acting in self—defence against robbers and qualifies for diplomatic immunity because he worked for the embassy.

The odds of Pakistani police detaining the people in the U.S. car are low. Authorities say they do not know who was in the vehicle, and the Americans have said little on the matter, other than admitting the car was driven by U.S. Embassy staff.

The judge’s order could be a means of pressuring the U.S. to produce the driver, who has not been identified. But it’s highly unlikely that any Americans involved in the traffic accident are still in Pakistan. Employees of the U.S. mission who get into trouble are typically on the first plane out of the country.

It’s also possible the driver was a Pakistani. U.S. Embassy spokeswoman Courtney Beale on Friday declined to comment on the order other than saying the vehicular incident “is under investigation.”

Lawyer Asad Manzoor Butt said the family of the struck bystander, Ibadur Rehman, filed a petition with the Lahore High Court seeking to bring attention to his death, which has received far less scrutiny than the deaths of the two men shot earlier January 27 in Lahore.

The court’s chief justice, Ijaz Chaudhry issued the arrest order, Mr. Butt said. On Thursday, the same court gave Pakistan’s government three more weeks to determine if Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity as America claims.

Government in a tough spot

The Pakistan government is in a tough spot. If it releases Mr. Davis, it risks angering violent elements in its population - including the Taliban, who have threatened to attack any official involved in letting Mr. Davis go. The ruling party also risks further alienating voters already unhappy with its performance.

But to keep Mr. Davis in prison is to anger the United States, which provides Pakistan with billions in aid but also needs its cooperation to take on militants who use its soil to plan attacks in Afghanistan and the West.

The U.S. has begun curbing diplomatic contacts and threatened to withhold aid if Mr. Davis is not freed, with President Barack Obama stressing the importance of upholding agreements covering diplomatic immunity.

Mr. Davis faces potential murder charges. He is in a Pakistani jail and is on a list barring him from leaving the country, officials said.

The U.S. says Mr. Davis is part of the embassy’s “administrative and technical staff.” That indicates he might have been a security official and helps explain his possession of a gun. Pakistanis have focused on him being an ex—Special Forces soldier who helps run an American “protective services” company.

The U.S. says he is an embassy employee but was on temporary duty at the consulate in Lahore. That has added to the confusion about his status since employees assigned to consulates do not always get the same level of diplomatic protection as those assigned to embassies.

 

[Bang Galore]

so what about the killer driver who ran away? does dplomatic immunity extends to crushing people to death and then running away from the scene too?

I wonder why more people aren't focused on that. Davis may or might not have a self defence explanation, the two guys killed may or may not be innocent but there is little doubt that the third person who was the victim of a car accident was innocent & the driver should at the very least be hauled up for that death. Absconding after a deadly hit & run is a serious offence which needs someone to be answerable for.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the Pakistani courts will determine whether this consultant/tech. advisor had immunity in the first place;


it would be prudent for the U.S. to extend the ''cooperation'' they initially assured to Pakistan. The fact of the matter is, 3 people are dead. Self-defence argument has already been ruled out --though the capable and applicable courts can confirm that, not members of PDF.

it's always good to practice what you preach; If there is a hit and run involving vehicular manslaughter in DC or Miami or anywhere else in the US --it is a felony. A serious crime.

most likely, the operators of that vehicle have been priority rushed out of the country......flight from justice before he/they could even be remanded or questioned.

the davis case has proven to be a mockery of justice; as every day passes, the U.S. is harming its relations with Pakistan --especially the common man Pakistani.

and it's a shame, given our history since independence and given our partnership during the cold war. I'm not smiling gleefully, this incident is quite frustrating and quite saddening.

I do trust our courts though. Quite amazing (amusing?) that Davis has access to a jail superintendant every time he throws a tantrum and uses curse words --as he gets his food and even mineral water (a commodity not afforded by many)









Pearls before swine!!

 

[Awesome]

You're not getting it. The matter of diplomatic immunity doesn't rest with the courts. It rests with the FO.

Why is taking your FO so long to confirm or deny such a simple matter as diplomatic status of a person?

You're trying to hide the failures of YOUR foreign office.

The foreign office already determined and stated there is no immunity...

The only problem is US loyalists fired him from the position.

If you can understand urdu, he says it loud and clear

So really why are they taking so long? It takes time to fire one guy after he said so on TV and then they need time to create fake papers!

 

[The HBS Guy]

the Pakistani courts will determine whether this consultant/tech. advisor had immunity in the first place;

And that's where you break the law in the first place.

Diplomatic status is decided by the FO and not by the court. What's so difficult to understand here?

 

[American Eagle]

You are factually mistaken.

The claiming of Diplomatic Immunity is exactly why the process inside Pakistan is on hold. Pakistan knows what full diplomatic immunity means and President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton have made clear the US position which cannot be disallowed under the Vienna Convention and several Treaties involved with that topic, DI. Mr. Davis is covered by Diplomatic Immunity.

Overseas writers, and let's be clear, I am one, an American who both served in and was wounded in Pakistan in January 1965 at the time of an early Rann of Kutch dust up between Pakistan and India...all of us overseas writers are either following the International Rule of Law or defying it to ask for any other legal actions without first observing DI.

DI works well in that the US will investigate through the US Justice Dept. all matters involving the Davis issue and honest, not stacked justice will then be done, up or down.

Meanwhile,how is the Pakistani Army and Frontier Forcess battle in the Northern areas going to try to dislodge and defeat major headquarters of the Taliban?

What are the people of Lahore doing to help the hundreds of families of those blown to bits and others maimed for life by the terrorist bombings of late in the City of Lahore?

It may be more focused and helpful to address domestic terrorism than to try to blame the victum, Mr. Davis, over a failed stick up attempt by known robbers.

Have a good weekend.

 

[The HBS Guy]

The foreign office already determined and stated there is no immunity...

Thid argument of yours has no locus standi.

The individual in the video was not the foreign minister at the time he made the statement. If he so truly believed what he's saying now, he should have stated this during his tenure as the FM.

No use saying it now.

It's useless until the FO gives an official statement.

AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

And that's where you break the law in the first place.

Diplomatic status is decided by the FO and not by the court. What's so difficult to understand here?

MoI in conjunction with FO would be answerable to said courts as well

 

[The HBS Guy]

MoI in conjunction with FO would be answerable to said courts as well

Pakistani Courts are an internal matter of Pakistan. The matter of diplomatic immunity holds between two govt. and not between a court and a govt.

 

[VCheng]

MoI in conjunction with FO would be answerable to said courts as well

With all due respect, these are the same courts that started to look into missing persons cases, that led to CJ Iftikhar's dismissal and then his reinstatement, with nary a peep from him about it since then.

The real powers-that-be lie elsewhere Sir. All the courts in Pakistan will reliably toe the line when the time comes I am sure.