Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[American Eagle]

What many of us here in the West ask, and I ask as one who served nearly two years with the old Karachi based US Embassy in the 1960s...and I was wounded in the Rann of Kutch by Indian tank fire blowing a truck coming towards our Land Rover into us...why do you not understand that Mr. Davis was faced with armed robbery and defended himself. Pure and simple.

Pakistan and the US are supposed to be allies...but I see a great many folks on this site who say openly they hope such events as the Davis failed stick up will cause the Government of Pakistan to fall.

All this tells me, as an "old" Pakitani hand (I am age 71 now) that rivalries between ethnic and economic strata inside Pakistan leaves it as a nation dividedn within itself.

Diplomatic Immunity is a matter of Internation, not national, law and treaties which the GOP until now has refused to admit to or honor. When any nation ignores and refuses to abide by international laws then how and why would anyone anymore want to do business or help Pakistan?

Personal and national dignity have nothing to do with a failed stick up by known robbers. This is all about causing trouble to try to break up the nation of Pakistan...my view, which as one who has lived and worked there...I am entitled to.

Please see separate Thread under Current Affairs regarding misuse of illegal arms all over Pakistan, to see that I for one find it "amazing" for anyone to fault Mr. Davis for bearing arms which are required by the US Dept. of State as part of his diplomatic duties and responsibilies, which the US Embassy and US State Dept. fairly and reasonably communicated over three months ago to the Pakistani Foreign Office...which has admitted that they took too long and failed to reply to acknolwedge Mr. Davis entire status as one with full Diplomatic Immunity.

Your post from Bangladesh does not indicate you have inside Pakistan first hand knowledge but you still have access to this site and more importantly to the whole world's media in this matter of failed attempted armed robbery by two armed Pakistanis in Lahore of Mr. Davis...shortly after same two robbers successfully robbed two Pakistani gentlement of their cell phones and a large amount of cash.

When you choose to make up your view point but ignore the facts of record with the police and as offered factually by the US Department of State you come across as oblivious of the hard facts and merely wish to find faulty or place blame. A failed stick up is a very serious matter of lack of law and order.

Have a good week and good luck in Bangladesh where IMF, Wordl Bank, and US fiscal support continue to help you in perhaps the poorest nation in the world at this time. I and we wish you better days and a healthier, happier, and more economically successful future.

 

[American Eagle]

It was a simple case of attempted armed robbery by two documented Pakitani crooks/robbers which went astray when Mr. Davis dared to try to denfend himself.

This ISI stuff is pure fiction. Whoever in the world started it simply wants to confuse the fact that a US diplomat with full Diplomatic Immunity defended himself from guns pointed at him attempted armed robbery.

Let's not waste time with the ISI stuff as there is no finding by any media worldwide or inside Pakistan to that effect. Just trouble mongering to bring up the ISI in this context.

 

[Developereo]

why do you not understand that Mr. Davis was faced with armed robbery and defended himself.

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense that they tried to hold up Davis -- even after the police report has refuted the claim?

Even if we grant you that they were robbers -- a charge not proven -- it still does not prove Davis' claim that they threatened him with a gun.

 

[American Eagle]

...a judge ordered the man's detention extended for 14 days and asked the Pakistani government to clarify if he has diplomatic immunity.

It would be helpful if folks pay attention to the fact that the court there has from day one required, as in ordered, the GOP Foreign Office to do it's job and state it's position on the US Department of State, US Ambassador and Mr. Davis claiming Diplomatic Immunity...which is based on Davis factually having a US Diplomatic Passport, a proper Paksitan VISA good until June 2012, and upon International Law and Treaties as outlined many times by the US State Department officially.

I believe, as I have been saying all along, that ALL sides need to calm down their rhetoric, and wait for the process to play out in a rational manner. The stakes are high no doubt, but adding frenzy to the mix will not achieve anything useful for anybody.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@Eagle= U dont trust us, u act like a bully, u sactioned us nany times , u have a Discriminatory Policy with reguards to us ............ nd u call us an ally.

Thanks u very much..... We r better off without being ur ally.

 

[American Eagle]

But it is a fact that the two robbers failed in their guns drawn attempt to rob Mr. Davis. The paramount fact, then, is he properly claimed and claims Diplomatic Immunity, which the courts want to have their own GOP verify, as if DI is understood then Mr. Davis has to promptly be removed from Pakistan for good, which would be the legally appropriate under international law conventions and treaties in his case.

I repeat these facts as there are newer contributers hourly and daily who either don't know the basic facts or who want to whip up a lynch mob mentality which of course Pakistan does not deserve as an outcome.

 

[American Eagle]

Below quotes are from the NEW YORK TIMES, Sunday, Feb. 13, 2011 and reflect the facts vs. various contradictory statements from Pakistani and Lahore officials:


A lawyer for Mr. Davis, Hassam Qadir, asked Judge Aneeq Anwar Chaudry of the Municipal Court to adhere to the principles of diplomatic immunity and release Mr. Davis. The State Department has repeatedly said that he is protected by diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention and must be released immediately.

In a statement on Friday night, the senior American official posted to Lahore, Carmela Conroy, who heads the consulate there, described the shooting as “a tragedy.” At the same time, she criticized the Pakistani authorities for ignoring what she called eyewitness accounts and physical evidence, including the police statement that one of the assailants carried a loaded gun. Mr. Davis was entitled to “full immunity from criminal prosecution,” and under the rules of diplomacy should be freed immediately, she said.

Please be aware that this same court has an Order outstanding to the Foreign Office of the Government of Pakistan for them to tell him their view of the US State Dept. claiming fully Diplomatic Immunity for Mr. Davis.

Here is a partial quote from the WASHINGTON POST Sunday, Feb. 13, 2011, which gives further information:

The men's bodies were found with five cell phones, two pistols and currency from Pakistan, Japan, Oman and the Philippines, according to the report, which does not indicate where those items came from.

The men's bodies refers to the two robbers who put upon Mr. Davis with their pistols drawn against him.

 

[Solomon2]

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense that they tried to hold up Davis -- even after the police report has refuted the claim?

Which police report? The first one in which the police immediately asserted they killed men were known robbers, or the police report in court after the incident had become politicized so no official dared stand up for the Americans out of fear of violence or a maimed career? Isn't this similar to what happened after Mumbai, when the local Pakistani police quickly determined the home village of the surviving attacker (link) but were then compelled to clam up for months?

...Diplomatic Immunity is a matter of Internation, not national, law and treaties which the GOP until now has refused to admit to or honor -

Perhaps now these Pakistanis feel that now they have nukes they can ignore such things, or make their own rules, or re-write the existing ones? I consider this evidence they don't think like free men but are stuck in a master/slave mentality. The powers-that-be in Pakistan must be very arbitrary and corrupt for people to think this way. Rule of law, as I see it, started decaying in the very first years after Jinnah passed away.

To the Pakistanis here, I'll say this: principles are what you fight for. A forum discussion is a kind of verbal battle. The principles Pakistanis demonstrate they are upholding are not kind or pleasant or just ones. When Benjamin Franklin emerged from the Philadelphia Convention and was asked what kind of government the new United States of America would have he answered, "A Republic, if you can keep it." Doing so demands a lot more from a citizen then merely marching with a mob to uphold the latest Five-Minute Hate; it requires the willingness to argue, justify, and strive for democratic leadership by contesting the will of your peers. Messy, but if you can't do that either out of fear or modesty or temper, then either you don't have what it takes to be a good citizen or your institutions are structured incorrectly and need revision. How many of you have held up the principles of international law which demand Davis' release?

 

[Developereo]

Which police report? The first one in which the police immediately asserted they killed men were known robbers, or the police report in court after the incident had become politicized so no official dared stand up for the Americans out of fear of violence or a maimed career? Isn't this similar to what happened after Mumbai, when the local Pakistani police quickly determined the home village of the surviving attacker (link) but were then compelled to clam up for months?

Your penchant to divert into unrelated cases is getting tiresome. By your logic, since OJ Simpson was acquitted of murder, we should write off the entire American judicial system.

If you have no information relevant to this case, please say so and avoid derailing the discussion. Questioning the integrity and professionalism of the police officials may win you cheap accolades with some people, but it only serves to highlight your racism and disdain for the Pakistani nation.

As regards this case, the first police report only repeated Mr. Davis' statement as such. The latest police report, delivered after investigating Mr. Davis' allegations, pours cold water over his self-defence claims. Regadless of whether these guys were robber, ISI agents or office clerks, there is no evidence that anyone threatened Davis with a gun.

Just because some people keep repeating this mantra like some sort of religious chant, will not make random facts appear out of thin air.

 

[Punjabbi Munda]

Popular Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, 37, was detained at the Indira Gandhi International Airport here on Sunday for allegedly carrying a huge amount of undeclared foreign currency. The Bollywood playback singer is a nephew of Pakistani singing legend Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. “We are questioning Rahat Ali Khan’s event manager to get to the bottom of the matter and after getting all the facts, we will decide on the future course of action,” said RK Sharma, additional director general, Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI).

Khan was taking an Emirates flight to Lahore when DRI officials intercepted him. Khan allegedly didn't declare the foreign currency at any immigration counter, a senior official said. Both Khan and his manager were detained and questioned at the airport by DRI and customs officials.

“Both Khan and Maruf were carrying $50,000 (R23 lakh) each in their check-in baggage and Maruf’s cabin baggage also had $24,000,” said the official. “Apart from this, they also had $18,000 worth of bank cheques,” he said.

According to the Customs Act, passengers arriving in India can bring back $5,000 in cash and $5,000 in traveller’s cheques or drafts without having to make any declaration. Thus the total amount that can be brought in without requiring declaration is $10,000.

If a passenger carries more than this amount, he or she has to prove that it's been acquired through legal means.

Singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan held at Delhi airport with $50,000 - Hindustan Times

___________________________________________

The detention of Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan at the Delhi airport has caused concern back home in Islamabad. Pakistan Interior Minister Rehman Malik has stepped in personally to look into the singer's detention over undeclared foreign currency.

Malik called up the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi and spoke with the envoy, Shahid Malik.

The minister asked for details about Rahat's detention at the Indira Gandhi International Airport. He has also asked the Pakistani High Commissioner to monitor the matter closely.

As per a statement issued last night, the Pakistan Interior Minister had said that he was looking into the matter.

Rahat was held at the Delhi airport on Sunday night for illegally carrying undeclared currency worth US $ 1.24 lakh. He had arrived at the national capital on a flight from Karachi when he was intercepted by personnel from the Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI).His manager Chitresh Srivastava was also held.

The foreign currency was not declared to Customs officials after the immigration checks, a DRI official said. The troupe was on in its way to Lahore via Dubai by an Emirates flight, the official added.

"The DRI officers found altogether US $1, 24,000 which is equivalent to about Rs. 60 lakhs. US $24,000 were found from the baggage carried by Rahat while the remaining US $50,000 each were found from the baggage of two troupe members," Central Board of Excise and Customs Chairman S Dutt Majumdar said.

The recovered foreign currency included US $10,000 and US $8,600 in demand drafts and some Travellers Cheques, a DRI official said.

The singer will be produced in court today.

He was earlier too involved in a controversy when organisers of a concert in Gurgaon filed a police complaint against him in July last year for his failure to turn up for a show.

Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, the 37-year-old nephew of legendary Pakistani singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan has crooned several Bollywood chartbusters including the song 'Dil To Bachcha Hai Ji' from the movie 'Ishqiya' for which he won the Filmfare Award for Best Male Playback Singer this year.

Pakistan steps into Rahat Fateh Ali Khan's detention case

 

[Solomon2]

Your penchant to divert into unrelated cases -

You do not deny that both Mumbai and Davis are politically hot cases so why would you claim they are unrelated as to how the Pakistan's justice system functions in each?

By your logic, since OJ Simpson was acquitted of murder, we should write off -

Non-sequitur. OJ did not have any form of diplomatic immunity so there was no doubt that a murder case belonged in the courts.

there is no evidence that anyone threatened Davis with a gun.

What do these contested facts have to do with diplomatic immunity? Nothing at all, yes?

 

[Developereo]

You do not deny that both Mumbai and Davis are politically hot cases so why would you claim they are unrelated as to how the Pakistan's justice system functions in each?

Because they are unrelated. Just because you make up random connections to divert attention doesn't mean its valid.

Like I said, if you have facts to back up your claims, please provide them. If there is evidence that Davis' life was in danger, I wll change my mind. So far it doesn't appear to be the case.

Non-sequitur. OJ did not have any form of diplomatic immunity so there was no doubt that a murder case belonged in the courts.

What do these contested facts have to do with diplomatic immunity? Nothing at all, yes?

My statement, and your response, was about Davis' life being in danger, not diplomatic immunity. Nice to see that you are dancing to change the subject.

 

[American Eagle]

My statements are all 100% from latest major US press reports on the Raymond Davis Diplomatic Immunity cause.

Another writer makes comparisons to the Mumbai episode. He is as valid to discuss that parallel example as you or anyone else being free to bring up ISI or other topics which to me are a diversion.

 

[MastanKhan]

Being subjected to two armed men trying to hold Mr. Davis up is grounds for self defense. He was as part of his job required to have a gun, and obviously it was used in self defense, which would be the simple reason he had and use it when faced with two armed robbers.

Forgotten in over a week of dialogue here is the fact that Davis had just gotten a large amount of cash from a Lahore bank ATM, which obviously was observed by the robbers who then tailed him and tried to hold him up at gun point.

Sir,

Mr Davis's job may have been what it maybe---he maybe authorized by the U S to carry a gun----but what it comes down to is----he had no authority to carry one in pakistan---.. U S laws are not superior to pakistani laws---only in show of power.

He was an illegal---and all this issue about diplomatic stuff is an after thought---.

Setting that aside---the man was on a subversive mission in pakistan---or in search of al qaeda oper---a single operator---basically working on his own authority---without a team---casually dressed in a regular checkered shirt and faded jeans---must have been real confident to operate on his own---must have been doing what he was doing for awhile to have that kind of confidence to be all alone in a totally hostile environment---which proves that he was no ordinary operator.

Now---coming down to the shooting---two criminals---ultimately they met their match.

Should Raymond be let go---in due time---all this chest thumping by pakistanis is not good---Like Ch Shujaat says to Nawaz Sharif---"GIVE SO MUCH PAIN SO THAT WHEN IT IS YOUR TURN TO TAKE IT---YOU DON'T SQUIRM"---.

Pakistanis must remember---because out of habbit----in a few days---you won't give a sh---it about it---neither you have the resolve nor you have the tenacity to make something out of yourself---.

So----make your trade and let Davis go to his home and you get whom you want---.

 

[jahangeer yousaf]

now whatever the case punjab police is gonna sui him...they have proved that it was purely attempt murder case ....... and none of the lawyer is gonna fight for davis .......and now about immunity after the statement of x-foreign minister...that was all in favour of pakistan