Raymond Davis Case: American Government officials confirm CIA status - New York Times

[American Eagle]

You got it right Tin Man! Thanks for this post.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Then pray tell me, who would do it?. Would you rather have terrorists roaming free?. Someone had to do it.

It was worth giving it a try. But now, I personally favor a "fortress America" approach. That is, concentrate on stopping terrorists from entering the USA and on uncovering plots that are emerging, rather than power projection into the Muslim world. The corollary is we have to stop believing that we must protect Israel at all costs. Israel has to take responsibility for making its own way in the world. And the same for the Muslim nations. Let China be the world's policeman for the next century.

 

[American Eagle]

If you folks haven't noticed all us "Western" writers here on PDF have had the "approval" signature to click in the lower left hand corner of each posting removed, that it remains there on the negative naysayers blamers of all the world writers on this same site.

Talk about fixed, uneven, unfair journalism.

 

[forcetrip]

Yes, and International Law, Vienna Convention, and Treaties which Pakistan signed are "the law" which you seem to not understand.

The enemy is the terrorists, not NATO.

Get really mad at the radical heretics to true Islam and get after them and this will be over that much quicker.

Do you feel that the Vienna convention backs CIA spies to operate with Diplomatic visa's and gather intelligence without the knowledge of the security forces of that country? It also clearly mentions in the Vienna convention you speak of that any grave crimes are not protected under this rule. Now the only regrettable thing is that you consider the killing of two criminals and an innocent man not being a grave crime, just an unfortunate accident.

 

[Awesome]

From what I'm hearing, the espionage charges are going to be levelled in the LHC. Kerry was assured by the federal government that, that won't happen, and the SHO in charge refused to file that charge in.

The SHO has been summoned by the LHC to explain his behavior - probably in accordance with the law, he will get a ruling to register the case.

Espionage case would mean he doesn't get released even if the families agree to blood money. He'll be Pakistan's enemy then.

 

[American Eagle]

Your views are appreciated and your civil style of writing them.

From 1963-1965 I was stationed as a young regular Air Force Lieutenant in the US Embassy then in Karachi. My office was inside the Country Team Chief for the CIA in Pakistan. I was not "in" the CIA. My higher HQ was the commander, a full Colonel, USAF, at the then USAF Security Service Communicaitons Intelligence Base at Badabur, just outside Peshawar. Pakistan was our ally then, under both SEATO and CENTO.

Until the 1965 India-Pakistan War I and we had excellent relations with the GOP, the Pak Military, all services, and I had many native Paksitani friends in all walks of life there in Karachi.

I had a Top Secret Crypto Clearance, which was about the highest level of clearance any USAF personnel could be awarded after an exhaustive background investigation from the day I was born to the day the Air Force gave me my clearance.

This a lot of self braggadocio, but rather than speculate on what you nor I know for sure about the duties and responsibilities of Mr. Davis, I will offer this comment as a former experienced field hand as I have just described myself. Mr. Davis was known to the ISI and the GOP if , I repat if, the ISI wanted the GOP to know of him and his job in Lahore. The ISI in my distance view from here in America now, not in the field there in Pakistan, knew full well he was in Lahore and doing a mission that most likely tightly wove into and complimented their mission as much as the ISI mission there likewise complimented ours.

Heavy speculation about rogue ISI relations with terrorist elements some say terrorists are now in Lahore and other major cities to avoid being ferreted out in the FATA, Baloch, and related areas, Swat, etc., but this is not knowable to me or you for a fact. It is mere speculation.

You are certainly entitled to your views but as a former US intel hand there in the 1960s who later continued my 31 year active and reserve USAF career in related reserve duties stateside, I think each of us has a civil right to differ. I simply based on my old and some more recent experiences in the 1990s when I did some short active duty tours for the JCS feel and see that the issue is not what we are talkiing about so much the last few week...but simply is over Davis being cased by and then a failed stick up attempt against Mr. Davis by the two robbers he reacted against when his life was threatened by them pointing pistols at him.

I won't waste time over made up bunkum from alarmists and people who are of the true enemy of the US and Pakistan, Taliban and al Qaida types, to deal in made up factors intended to erase the hard fact that two now know with a police and court record crooks, robbers, failed in their last armed robbery attempt.

As was ultimately the case in 1965 when I was still in Pakistan after the 1965 war began in Jan., 65, I understand the boiling hatred, confusion, and blaming...the blaming process is a bad characteristic for a feudal still very backward in terms of political maturity nation which has elements within it's own GOP, miliary, and ISI pulling against each other, let alone on occasion pulling agains the NATO allies. That sort of internal bickering and uncoordinated pulling against each other with the Paksitan system itself was just as bad in 1965 as it is today, which says something about a huge failure of folks within all parts of Pakistan not being treated equally and thus many are not loyal to the nation of Pakistan per se, which is a bad state of affairs.

The death of the third man by a Pakistani hired driver of a US Consulate vehicle is regrettable, I addressed that in detail in this thread a few hours ago. It is not, repeat not, a capital crime against two US diplomatic immunity folks who were not the driver of the vehicle they were riding in. I hope that is clearer said a second time. I wrote along list of things the US Embassy should do for that innocent victum's family that you can tab back to read. But his death was a simple traffic accident, not anything else.

As for the two robbers, their families have certainly suffered emotionally and deserve condolences and repatriations. But the two who were killed died in the "line of duty" they chose as public robbers with a known to the Lahore police record. This is tough but has to be seen over and over...they made Mr. Davis their victum when they tried to rob him at gun point. All made up excuses and wording to avoid this sad but true fact is useless in the face of Diplomatic Immunity. Your opinion of how Diplomatic Immunity works and which sections and clauses apply is sincerely misguided.

 

[American Eagle]

That is pure baloney. Allies are not enemies. Diplomatic Immunity check mates all these unsound theories some keep writing freehand here.

 

[PeacefulIndian]

Sorry if a repost - but this is an interesting development for me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/world/asia/22pakistan.html

Several American and Pakistani officials said that the C.I.A. team with which Mr. Davis worked in Lahore was tasked with tracking the movements of various Pakistani militant groups, including Lashkar-e-Taiba, a particularly violent group that Pakistan uses as a proxy force against India but that the United States considers a threat to allied troops in Afghanistan. For the Pakistanis, such spying inside their country is an extremely delicate issue, particularly since Lashkar has longstanding ties to Pakistan’s intelligence service, the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI.

If RD was indeed spying on LeT, then probably it explains Pakistan's anguish over it since probably this is the first time US was doing something directly in India's interest. The message to the US is pretty ample clear - " You dare not touch our assets that we use against India. We have already given up on our former friends that were trouble in Afghanistan, you do whatever to them, kill them with drones wherever you want. But LeT & other groups - no way - we have them reserved for India & our strategy of using these groups as a state policy will not be compromised. "

This is a new angle altogether & I really wonder how India factor chips in here. More to look forward to.

 

[forcetrip]

I think you are suggesting that the ISI had prior information about him roaming around armed in the middle of the city, also with the material that got confiscated from his person. I am pretty sure that Raymond got jumpy and reacted thinking the robbers were extremists coming to cut his head off. Well let me know what Central "used" to do when a mission went "stray". You cannot ask a country where you are operating black-op's to ignore rules and regulations because he was on a mission. Your country is busy making diplomats pay traffic and parking tickets, but when someone else tries to do the right thing its not respecting international law.

 

[American Eagle]

My replay remains that a failed stick up attempt by two known by history robbers resulted in their untimely deaths. Trying to build a spy novel around an plain second attempted but failed robbery same afternoon, same to robbers, just ain't true. Davis has DI and Pakistan is breaking International Law right now by detaining Mr. Davis, who if you haven't noticed, is pending the Court Order to the GOP/FO for their statement on his DI standing. That is the only legal action in play right now from the day of the robbery. And even that as handled by the police and GOP has been illegally handled. The day has yet to come to the free world that we blame victums of failed crime attempts.

 

[forcetrip]

My replay remains that a failed stick up attempt by two known by history robbers resulted in their untimely deaths. Trying to build a spy novel around an plain second attempted but failed robbery same afternoon, same to robbers, just ain't true. Davis has DI and Pakistan is breaking International Law right now by detaining Mr. Davis, who if you haven't noticed, is pending the Court Order to the GOP/FO for their statement on his DI standing. That is the only legal action in play right now from the day of the robbery. And even that as handled by the police and GOP has been illegally handled. The day has yet to come to the free world that we blame victums of failed crime attempts.

I do not think you can wave the diplomatic immunity flag when you kill two criminals and run over a pedestrian in broad daylight. It is strange you cannot do a lot of things under diplomatic immunity, such as spying and discharging weapons.

 

[6642.CN]

US officials have provided fresh details about Raymond Davis, the CIA agent at the centre of a diplomatic stand-off in Pakistan, including confirmation that he had worked for the private security contractor Xe, formerly known as Blackwater.

US gives fresh details of CIA agent who killed two men in Pakistan shootout | World news | The Guardian

what remains to be known whether the mission of which he is only a single part among many others, is against the state.

 

[Majnun]

Yes, and International Law, Vienna Convention, and Treaties which Pakistan signed are "the law" which you seem to not understand.

The enemy is the terrorists, not NATO.

Get really mad at the radical heretics to true Islam and get after them and this will be over that much quicker.

Of course one should go after them. But that doesn't justify this man's actions, he has murdered two men. And if Pakistan's reaction has been somewhat slow against the radical heretics, as you say, that doesn't justify the attitude that get rid of them and we won't send these men into Pakistan, or get rid of them and we'll stop drone attacks in your country. That is the attitude I understood you to be justifying, please ignore this post if I was mistaken.

 

[Majnun]

Sorry if a repost - but this is an interesting development for me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/world/asia/22pakistan.html



If RD was indeed spying on LeT, then probably it explains Pakistan's anguish over it since probably this is the first time US was doing something directly in India's interest. The message to the US is pretty ample clear - " You dare not touch our assets that we use against India. We have already given up on our former friends that were trouble in Afghanistan, you do whatever to them, kill them with drones wherever you want. But LeT & other groups - no way - we have them reserved for India & our strategy of using these groups as a state policy will not be compromised. "

This is a new angle altogether & I really wonder how India factor chips in here. More to look forward to.

Is India trying to become the centre of attention and portray itself as the victim again?

 

[Majnun]

There was a column in Dawn, I cannot find it now, that was talking about how this was the same Hillary Clinton who wanted diplomatic immunity to be revoked for diplomats in US who had parking violations, and yet somehow she insists that this man should have diplomatic immunity.