Rawalpindi | Gentlemen, it’s time

[fatman17]

And you really think that is going to change anything... Does it ever


Joining the discussion late, so now that we are supporting the army whole-heartedly, any updates on what it has been able to achieve — the press is briefed by the ISPR every day but there is there any statement on the collective toll. If the Taliban in total are round about 7,000 and they kill on an average 150 Taliban every day, can one expect a 10 per cent reduction in their strength in the last week alone?

Don't want to be an instigator here or dissolute this discussion but what exactly is the army telling us... I doubt its operations in the Frontier province. How can one of the most highly-trained armies not take over a rag-tag army made of illiterate and untrained men (that's my view, which I gather has been echoed a gazillion times on this forum but see no harm in iterating it).

Fatman 17 why won't the army be disclosing its movements or formations. It does release images of its movements everyday, some which seem staged. Secondly, this situation has moved from push to shove. Futile attempts to win the government's writ back or win the battle to win the hearts and minds of the hundreds thousands displaced. When they were unable to nip the evil in the bud can they now use strength to achieve the same?

you seem to be so sure of whats going on - so why do you need me or any one else to update you on whats going on.

does the US disclose its movements or formations? does any army? does any army disclose its details of ongoing operations?

this is not a fast-food war we get to see in the movies - over in 2 hours! its a long haul!

all we get from you are questions! provide us some solutions!i can take your smartness, your self-assurdness but not your arrogance!

 

[Elmo]

you seem to be so sure of whats going on - so why do you need me or any one else to update you on whats going on.

does the US disclose its movements or formations? does any army? does any army disclose its details of ongoing operations?

this is not a fast-food war we get to see in the movies - over in 2 hours! its a long haul!

all we get from you are questions! provide us some solutions!i can take your smartness, your self-assurdness but not your arrogance!

@ fatman17:
You seem to be so sure of whats going on - so why do you need me or any one else to update you on whats going on.
I am not sure at all — what made you think that. As for updates from you or others, I feel no there is no harm in asking — I can be wrong or right, I can find out things that i didn't know about, discover viewpoints that are interesting... I treat it as a learning process.

does the US disclose its movements or formations? does any army? does any army disclose its details of ongoing operations?

I like saying this on PDF: I am as civil as any civilian can get. No links to the military whatsoever and have little idea about its combat strategy or operations.

So thanks for letting me know that no army discloses details of its ongoing operations. That would have sufficed

this is not a fast-food war we get to see in the movies - over in 2 hours! its a long haul!
This "haul" sir-ji we have been witnessing since the operations in Waziristan in 2005. "Long" is an underestimation of its duration.

all we get from you are questions!

Because what I don't know I ask.

provide us some solutions!

I have absolutely no authority/expertise/license to dispense solutions. Hence refrain from doing that.

i can take your smartness, your self-assurdness

Thanks for the compliment!

But not your arrogance!

I had absolutely no intention to come across as arrogant — in fact, my humility is something I am proud of

 

[blain2]

Because what I don't know I ask.

Trust me, none of us know it all, yet there are ways to ask and learn. I doubt your intentions are as such. Please feel free to post what ever you like to, but do not assume others to be fools by making statements such as above specially when there are many here who have seen quite a bit in their lives.

I rarely see FM get annoyed and the fact that he is from your constant harangues about the incompetence of the Army and these patronizing statements such as "so now that we are supporting the army whole-heartedly" - well no you are not and even if you are, big whoop! You are not doing the Army any favours...in actuality you are doing yourself a favour by supporting the Army during these operations. So please spare us and the Army from such graces.

I am all for an objective analysis of the situation instead of sugar coating it, yet I refrain from stating/speaking of things about which I do not know much. At this time, aside from the commanders and troops on the ground, nobody knows...so lets wait for the information to be released which the Army deems appropriate. There are casualties on our side and that should be a reminder that there is quite a bit of shooting and killing going on (27 KIA on our side is not a small number by any means).

The Army stinks at PR because this is how the Army is. They do the best they can, however to expect glitzy media coverage with the maps and actual coverage of dead bodies is asking for too much. Maybe the Army will show some of it and maybe it won't. But that is just the way it is so get used to it.

 

[fatman17]

^^^Nadja jee - east is east and west is west - never the twain shall meet! lets leave it at that!

Blain2 - thanks for your very logical answers!

S-2 - well he's just what he is S-2!

 

[All-Green]

And you really think that is going to change anything... Does it ever


Joining the discussion late, so now that we are supporting the army whole-heartedly, any updates on what it has been able to achieve — the press is briefed by the ISPR every day but there is there any statement on the collective toll. If the Taliban in total are round about 7,000 and they kill on an average 150 Taliban every day, can one expect a 10 per cent reduction in their strength in the last week alone?

Don't want to be an instigator here or dissolute this discussion but what exactly is the army telling us... I doubt its operations in the Frontier province. How can one of the most highly-trained armies not take over a rag-tag army made of illiterate and untrained men (that's my view, which I gather has been echoed a gazillion times on this forum but see no harm in iterating it).

Fatman 17 why won't the army be disclosing its movements or formations. It does release images of its movements everyday, some which seem staged. Secondly, this situation has moved from push to shove. Futile attempts to win the government's writ back or win the battle to win the hearts and minds of the hundreds thousands displaced. When they were unable to nip the evil in the bud can they now use strength to achieve the same?

Taliban are not as rag tag as our public tends to believe...
I am sure you have some idea about what happened to Russia in Afghanistan...similar rag tag army was able to humble Russia.
Not that i am saying i do not believe PA can beat TTP but i do not think it was that simple considering what has been simmering since good 2 decades.
Thanks to the Afghan war there was a very big risk which to our horror came true...it is the mistake of our past leadership to realize the threat associated with militants fed on the indoctrination of holy warriors and running in parallel to the state itself!

The fifth column support of TTP and the US actions in Afghanistan gave the TTP some sort of silent support at the time when they were not directly bombarding the local populace with suicide attacks.

The TTP have been engaging in hit and run attacks but many times they have mustered enough numbers to hold territory and outnumber the Army and FC.
However more recently in the tribal areas the operation was more forceful...

Militarily it is not an impossible task for our Army but when you throw in public sentiments and silent support to a farce being played in the name of Islam, then it is not very simple.

In red mosque the militants used human shields, who is to say they do not do it still...every child, woman or unarmed civilian which dies in an engagement gives them more legitimacy since most of the observers focus their attention on the Government operations and the collateral...no one will believe that many houses the terrorists hide in are actually inhabited by families who are either silent supporters of a cause they are deceived into associating with the Taliban or because they have been forced to do so....
We lost many good men in such house raids as well who held back in face of civilians...

An associate of mine was crippled for life from the waist down when he let the 5-10 people in a mosque pray on encountering them on a routine patrol and was in turn shot by them when he passed them by.

You see the TTP fights dirty and the Taliban brand had massive support after US invasion and prior to the suicide bombing.
This is a key factor which you should keep in perspective when analyzing past army operations and grilling a force which has lost more than a thousand proud sons of Pakistan!

Even in swat, despite using heavy mortars, RPGs etc. the TTP's killing of civilians are not being paid any attention but the Army is being blamed for using excessive force and not knowing how to make War...this force is all that the TTP is afraid of...nothing else...what gives us the right to question the military at this stage of a critical operation?

Let us hope that this nation has the will to see this war through and emerge victorious over the thugs who have all but hijacked our very identity.

 

[Elmo]

Trust me, none of us know it all, yet there are ways to ask and learn. I doubt your intentions are as such. Please feel free to post what ever you like to, but do not assume others to be fools by making statements such as above specially when there are many here who have seen quite a bit in their lives.

I rarely see FM get annoyed and the fact that he is from your constant harangues about the incompetence of the Army and these patronizing statements such as "so now that we are supporting the army whole-heartedly" - well no you are not and even if you are, big whoop! You are not doing the Army any favours...in actuality you are doing yourself a favour by supporting the Army during these operations. So please spare us and the Army from such graces.

I am all for an objective analysis of the situation instead of sugar coating it, yet I refrain from stating/speaking of things about which I do not know much. At this time, aside from the commanders and troops on the ground, nobody knows...so lets wait for the information to be released which the Army deems appropriate. There are casualties on our side and that should be a reminder that there is quite a bit of shooting and killing going on (27 KIA on our side is not a small number by any means).

The Army stinks at PR because this is how the Army is. They do the best they can, however to expect glitzy media coverage with the maps and actual coverage of dead bodies is asking for too much. Maybe the Army will show some of it and maybe it won't. But that is just the way it is so get used to it.

Oops, the cat is out of the bag! I don't support force and that's how it is.

As for harangues, well I can't really deal with pomp and show either.

Just for the record, I am not anti-army.

 

[blain2]

Oops, the cat is out of the bag! I don't support force and that's how it is.

As for harangues, well I can't really deal with pomp and show either.

Just for the record, I am not anti-army.

Ok that is fine. No problem here if you do not support force, but why not come out and say so clearly instead of hiding behind this muted critique of the Army? When has the Army ever been an open book for them to reveal everything now just to satisfy our curiosities about an ongoing operation?

Also for the record, I am not calling for bloodshed. Its better (and the most likely outcome) that these folks are broken up and dispersed so they do not remain as a group capable of challenging the GoP. The more that are killed, the bigger the problem of badl at a tribal level. I recognise that afterall these are our own people as such the ideology has to be challenged by way of education etc. and not arms.

 

[Elmo]

Ok that is fine. No problem here if you do not support force, but why not come out and say so clearly instead of hiding behind this muted critique of the Army? When has the Army ever been an open book for them to reveal everything just to satisfy our curiosities about an ongoing operation?

Also for the record, I am not calling for bloodshed. Its better (and the most likely outcome) that these folks are broken up and dispersed so they do not remain as a group capable of challenging the GoP. The more that are killed, the bigger the problem of badl at a tribal level.

Scared of the vilification — don't want the entire forum zooming in on me. I have already been called anti-Pakistan, anti-army, US agent besides being called a snob, and now also arrogant.

I realise that a large chunk of users here are pro-army or have military backgrounds, don't want to rub them the wrong way. I like being here — survival matters.

Yes, the last para is true. Speak to the FC soldiers and ask them for their reason of low morale, they invariably reply that they fear their families will be vindicated for them fighting on part of the government. The khasadars are in a much worse situation. Just yesterday, a subehdar major's house was ransacked and looted in Mohmand/Bajaur area. The Taliban laid siege to his house for more than two hours. Luckily, he had shifted his family to Peshawar so no one was hurt, but the man was shaken.

I don't support force because I don't like bloodshed and in this case we can't even distinguish the enemy. You soldiers are doing a great job laying down lives, but that should not go in futility. In the end you aren't even getting any praise, the locals despise the army/FC for enforcing curfews, restricting movement and also blame them for the displacements they have to go undergo. And whether we like it or not, there are many of our own people who inadvertently lose their lives in between. And what for — Solomon has a point in the other thread, why should we support the army.

I question the validity of the military's actions, muted here and not-so-muted elsewhere.

 

[jeypore]

question the validity of the military's actions, muted here and not-so-muted elsewhere.

What do you mean by that statement nadja? now reading thru this thread, i am really getting confused of what the Pakistanie are thinking. Several are saying the army's starting action against the taliban (which is a good sign), you are saying the army is doing it the wrong way, and one more person is paranoid that army has been bought out by foreigners. There is not singularity amongst the thinking of masses, it is all plaurality. Can some one explain.

Thanks.

 

[Elmo]

What do you mean by that statement nadja? Know reading thru this thread, i am really getting confused of what the Pakistanie are thinking. Several are saying the army's starting action against the taliban (which is a good sign), you are saying the army is doing it the wrong way, and one more person is paranoid that army has been bought out by foreigners. There is not singularity amongst the thinking of masses, it is all plaurality. Can some one explain.

Thanks.

There are three kinds of opinions floating here: those who support the army's action, those who don't and then the third category is one which is unsure or just doesn't know enough.

Why I think the army is doing it the wrong way — because they haven't done it the right way in the last seven years.

Such massive movement to consolidate the Frontier province is mind-boggling. How could we let 7,000 Taliban lay control of large swathes in the first place. Keeping in mind the spillover effect from the Waziristan agencies, Talibanisation has been a local phenomenon.

People want peace, that's it. Malakand division (comprising of Swat, Buner, Lower and Upper Dir, Chitral, Shangla and Malakand) is one of the poorest regions in the province. for those people day-to-day survival is the most of their problems. When they had to contend with 10-day long curfews, which were relaxed for a mere six hours, there patience was tested. Most of the division in any case relied on tourism, which has been badly affected.

One and all agree this action should have taken place earlier.

and yes, different views on the subject are bound to abound...

 

[Patriot]

Government cannot afford to loose government writ in NWFP and sit in their offices without doing anything...For God Sake Pakistan is a country with nuclear weapons and imagine if it does not have control over half of it's territory.Nadia would you live under Shria Law imposed by Talibans?Bloodshed is unavoidable.Why are you not blaming the Talibans for death of civillians.It's not the Army which broke peace deal.

 

[Elmo]

Government cannot afford to loose government writ in NWFP and sit in their offices without doing anything...For God Sake Pakistan is a country with nuclear weapons and imagine if it does not have control over half of it's territory.Nadia would you live under Shria Law imposed by Talibans?Bloodshed is unavoidable.Why are you not blaming the Talibans for death of civillians.It's not the Army which broke peace deal.

I don't support army action because you need solid ground intelligence for that. It's counter-insurgency that we are talking about here, not a war against another country. How do you differentiate between a Taliban and a local? They both share the same ethnicity.

The writ started eroding in 2002 when the US invaded Afghanistan and these extremists came in (that's another debate though). It's not something out of the blue or unexpected.

Why am I not blaming the Taliban for civilian death, well because the government is to be blamed. Ever watched videos of decapitations, available on the net and on this forum as well. How could those beheadings be allowed — why was no action taken against those barbarians. You nip the evil in the bud, not let it rear its head and then expect people to support you.

 

[jeypore]

There are three kinds of opinions floating here: those who support the army's action, those who don't and then the third category is one which is unsure or just doesn't know enough.

Why I think the army is doing it the wrong way — because they haven't done it the right way in the last seven years.

Such massive movement to consolidate the Frontier province is mind-boggling. How could we let 7,000 Taliban lay control of large swathes in the first place. Keeping in mind the spillover effect from the Waziristan agencies, Talibanisation has been a local phenomenon.

People want peace, that's it. Malakand division (comprising of Swat, Buner, Lower and Upper Dir, Chitral, Shangla and Malakand) is one of the poorest regions in the province. for those people day-to-day survival is the most of their problems. When they had to contend with 10-day long curfews, which were relaxed for a mere six hours, there patience was tested. Most of the division in any case relied on tourism, which has been badly affected.

One and all agree this action should have taken place earlier.

and yes, different views on the subject are bound to abound...

So what is the final solution now, that army should do nothing!!!! First of all, it is more of supression of an idelogy then the actual battle that will win. It should have gone hand and hand with the military action, but looking at the Gop and Army from outside perspective it lacks the motivation to finish the job. Not more so, because they are our own people, but lack of actually fighting!

This actions are only taken to cure the area, but not once have I seen prevention of the diseases. There currently no planes for prevention, but all plans for emergency action. One just needs to read the pakistanie news to reliase this.

 

[blain2]

Scared of the vilification — don't want the entire forum zooming in on me. I have already been called anti-Pakistan, anti-army, US agent besides being called a snob, and now also arrogant.

I realise that a large chunk of users here are pro-army or have military backgrounds, don't want to rub them the wrong way. I like being here — survival matters.

Yes, the last para is true. Speak to the FC soldiers and ask them for their reason of low morale, they invariably reply that they fear their families will be vindicated for them fighting on part of the government. The khasadars are in a much worse situation. Just yesterday, a subehdar major's house was ransacked and looted in Mohmand/Bajaur area. The Taliban laid siege to his house for more than two hours. Luckily, he had shifted his family to Peshawar so no one was hurt, but the man was shaken.

I don't support force because I don't like bloodshed and in this case we can't even distinguish the enemy. You soldiers are doing a great job laying down lives, but that should not go in futility. In the end you aren't even getting any praise, the locals despise the army/FC for enforcing curfews, restricting movement and also blame them for the displacements they have to go undergo. And whether we like it or not, there are many of our own people who inadvertently lose their lives in between. And what for — Solomon has a point in the other thread, why should we support the army.

I question the validity of the military's actions, muted here and not-so-muted elsewhere.

What you do is no different than representing the other side of the coin and there is nothing wrong with it. Feel free however I would take issue with some of the baseless critique of the Army.

It should not be news to anyone that support for this action is split half and half. So I am not surprised if you do not support the actions, however why is the critique only reserved for the Army? Army withheld a major offensive because the political support was not forthcoming. There is a consensus at the political level in Pakistan currently and it was the go ahead from the GoP which led Army to move.

I don't support force because I don't like bloodshed and in this case we can't even distinguish the enemy. You soldiers are doing a great job laying down lives, but that should not go in futility. In the end you aren't even getting any praise, the locals despise the army/FC for enforcing curfews, restricting movement and also blame them for the displacements they have to go undergo. And whether we like it or not, there are many of our own people who inadvertently lose their lives in between. And what for — Solomon has a point in the other thread, why should we support the army.

I agree its a thankless war however as of late there is some realization in the public that a showdown was inevitable given the stance taken up by the other side. All of the other issues that you refer to (curfews etc.) are bound to happen in such a situation. All one can hope for is that these operations are over sooner than later and that some semblance of peace and normalcy returns in the lives of the Swatis.

 

[Kasrkin]

"And what for — Solomon has a point in the other thread, why should we support the army..."

Well, maybe because if we don't our children and nation won't have a future and all that we know will descend into chaos, anarchy, violence and war. Pakistan is a great nation with more than 170 million people, we need to think about their prosperity and long term prospects too and not just the short term convenience of a million or so Swatis who would undoubtedly be better off without the Taliban in the long term as well.

At the end of the day, it is your decision and no one here is offended by your views. Most of us think that our nation’s security should not be jeopardized because our leaders are indecisive and cowardly when it comes to making hard decisions. We believe that the TTP and others are a bad enough threat to merit just decisions, you obviously don’t. The very ideals of ‘non-violence’ and ‘peace’ that you use to condemn the Army’s attempts to establish order and justice within the borders of our country are obviously not shared by those who initiated this civil war because of their hunger for conquest in the first place. These ideals of ‘law’ and ‘order’ and ‘justice’ need to be protected, even if it requires the use of force which is an inevitable aspect of human nature. Islam and International Law give the respective Armed Forces of sovereign states that authority and responsibility because we live in a far from utopian world where not everyone prefers to be a peaceful, self-less, constructive contribution to society.

But ofcouse in Pakistan we have people here who label both the policeman whose job it is to protect society and the criminal whose job it is to benefit himself at the cost of society, ‘inhuman’ and in the same league because they both happen to use a gun. Whenever the Army has been compelled to overthrow a civilian dictatorship, we have Pakistani ‘liberals’ ranting themselves hoarse about concepts like ‘law’ and ‘constitution’ and ‘democracy’ but ironically now that the Army is fighting and dying for the very same ideals, the same liberals can be found falling over each other’s feet to make an exception for the terrorists. Why? Just because it is the ‘hated’ Army that is trying to oppose them. Some people will be unhappy with everything, it is their opportunistic nature and thus they are nothing but a thankless burden on society.