Rage: The emotion an Indian experiences on a visit to China

[timetravel]

I know how many have been lifted and how many would be lifted. I don't need any links from you for that. If you are happy with just this much, it is your choice. I want my country to perform much better than this. And when I see China, I can help being envious and angry. And it is not just China, many other countries have performed better in HDI growth than India. While all Indian govt delivered are promises, like they would turn Mumbai into Shanghai!

And don't tell me to stop talking about poverty. If you don't have the balls to stomach your ills, don't come online and call others crap.

India is already the second fastest growing economy in the world for last two decades? What more do you want.

Other things will come with time. Have to wait, there is no magic wand to increase economy from 2 trillion to 10 trillion overnight.

and poverty alleviation is going on fine. I already gave you link. So obviously there should be no need to harp on it again and again.

 

[Kloitra]

India is already the second fastest growing economy in the world for last two decades? What more do you want.
Other things will come with time. Have to wait, there is no magic wand to increase economy from 2 trillion to 10 trillion overnight.

Because I feel that since independence, govt has taken many wrong decisions. India had far more potential. But the policies killed all. Tell me one front where govt has done an excellent work, where you are satisfied with the govt. I am not pro-China/anti-India. But I have to admit that Chinese govt has done an excellent job of running the country. Their growth was systematic. They created a base. Health, education, infrastructure, streamlining of bureaucracy.

Than they made the country self sufficient. Tell me a single product not made in China. Its not that it was all pragmatism of CCP. The model existed. China followed. And see where they are. Development was well planned, directional. Not hap hazard as India's. Tell me how many cities have Indian govt developed? It is now that they have woken up and doing some big investment in infrastructure. Had it not the economic crisis of 92', India still would have been operating typewriters, and people waiting in que of those 'ration' stores.

It is as the title says, rage, against the inept clowns running the country. And this is where I admire China. They always kept country first. Their entire growth is based on country first. You can slam it as oppression, but it yields results. For Indian politicos, country is probably in the bottom of their priority.

 

[Okemos]

But the ccp did implement the ban. who knows and who doesn't is a different matter.

ccp is blocking out even such trivial thing like a blind activist, so no wonder that all that the Chinese people get to know is manipulated version of information on every important aspect of China.

"Chen is an outspoken advocate against China's "one child" policy and use of forced sterilization and abortions. He was arrested and jailed for four years in 2006, and he's been under house arrest since"

Jailed for 4 years and house arrest for 2 years..total 6 years jail.. why? did he do theft or burglary or did he sell drugs. NOOOOO.
Just for Opposing One China policy...not 1 week, not 2 weeks bloody god damm 6 years.. just for saying that One Child policy is wrong...omg

http://mashable.com/2012/04/30/china-dissident-search/

and this is not one time incident, but state policy and applies to 1.2 billion Chinese on permament basic for the last 50 good dam years. anyone who opens his mouth becomes a victim of the 100+ billion internal security programme. I would never want to live in a country with such extreme restrictions on freedom whether it is China or USA.

So please while China has done good economically, I prefer India for doing good economically but also allowing its citizens freedom at same time.

I don't know what you are talking about. There are prominent scholars that have written articles opposing one-child policy. In fact, I am opposed to one child policy and there are lots of people that voiced concern in public. There are also a group of mothers that have lost single child and are protesting.

1st of all, Mr. Chen's treatment is not orchestrated by the party or central government, but was caused by some village and county level officials. He definitely not just wrote articles or voiced his opinion. Otherwise, my family would be in jail too. Everybody in China knows that some local officials, esp. in backward places, are not the law abiding citizens. What makes Mr. Chen's case special is his plea to other countries escalated from domestic grievance into diplomacy crisis and were being used by certain country as leverage. Then it also became a face-saving issue and we all know some nutcases in the party highly value this vague "face."

The saddest part is that a mishandling incident by some petty officials escalated into a diplomacy issue and the central government had to interfere. Nobody is denying that China has lots of improvements to be done on freedom of press. But I feel that the South China newsgroup, the trumpet of democracy in China and harsh critic of government has done more harm than good. To be honest with you, I don't want gullible citizens to be instigated by some newspapers or any media. I cannot imagine what will happen if China totally opens its door to foreign media. For example, during Japan's Fukushima incident, lots of nutcase Chinese rushed to stores and bought up all salt because they read in news article that salt would protect them from radiation. Can you imagine 1.3 billion people get swayed by foreign media? We would have 5 Arab springs! scary.

It might be easier for India to have total freedom of press since India's poor people are not interested in newspaper, (am I right here?) oh well but you still see so many misinformed Indians here. While in China, most citizens do read newspaper and watch TV, even the poorest. Lots of them have never been outside their hometown so they are very easily manipulated by news articles.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I don't know what you are talking about. There are prominent scholars that have written articles opposing one-child policy. In fact, I am opposed to one child policy and there are lots of people that voiced concern in public. There are also a group of mothers that have lost single child and are protesting.

1st of all, Mr. Chen's treatment is not orchestrated by the party or central government, but was caused by some village and county level officials. He definitely not just wrote articles or voiced his opinion. Otherwise, my family would be in jail too. Everybody in China knows that some local officials, esp. in backward places, are not the law abiding citizens. What makes Mr. Chen's case special is his plea to other countries escalated from domestic grievance into diplomacy crisis and were being used by certain country as leverage. Then it also becomes a face-saving issue and we all know some nutcases in the party that highly value this vague "face."

The saddest part is that a mishandling incident by some petty officials escalated into a diplomacy issue and the central government had to interfere. Nobody is denying that China has lots of improvements to be done on freedom of press. But I feel that the South China newsgroup, the trumpet of democracy in China and harsh critic of government has done more harm than good. To be honest with you, I don't want gullible citizens to be instigated by some newspapers or any media. I cannot imagine what will happen if China totally opens its door to foreign media.

Can I ask a question, from your signature, do you support the KMT?

 

[timetravel]

To be honest with you, I don't want gullible citizens to be instigated by some newspapers or any media. I cannot imagine what will happen if China totally opens its door to foreign media.

so 1.2 billion Chinese are gullible.

But I thought they had high IQ and high IQ people are supposed to be intelligent and not gullible. isn't it.

though nice excuse by ccp to take away all freedom from the life's of billion people.

 

[timetravel]

Because I feel that since independence, govt has taken many wrong decisions. India had far more potential. But the policies killed all. Tell me one front where govt has done an excellent work, where you are satisfied with the govt. I am not pro-China/anti-India. But I have to admit that Chinese govt has done an excellent job of running the country. Their growth was systematic. They created a base. Health, education, infrastructure, streamlining of bureaucracy.

Than they made the country self sufficient. Tell me a single product not made in China. Its not that it was all pragmatism of CCP. The model existed. China followed. And see where they are. Development was well planned, directional. Not hap hazard as India's. Tell me how many cities have Indian govt developed? It is now that they have woken up and doing some big investment in infrastructure. Had it not the economic crisis of 92', India still would have been operating typewriters, and people waiting in que of those 'ration' stores.

It is as the title says, rage, against the inept clowns running the country. And this is where I admire China. They always kept country first. Their entire growth is based on country first. You can slam it as oppression, but it yields results. For Indian politicos, country is probably in the bottom of their priority.

why are you harping on 1950 to 1980s, 90s. You cannot change that now or can you?

why dont you live in present and stop wasting your time. The present reality is that India is second fastest growing country for last two decades. Now what more do you want.

and I dont care a damm what China has done. Because you cannot imply that China acheived success beacuse of the draconian anti freedom rules. That is Crap.

Indian govt followed wrong policies from 1950 to 1980s and as a result didnt have good progress. Simple as that. It has got to do with the decisions taken by the govt and whether they are right or wrong.

Same decisions China took they could have taken with a liberal and humane govt. and achieved all the success still. This is precisely what India has done in last two decades, and that is to lift millions out of poverty and become the second fastest growing economy and the 4th largest economy of the world.

So India has achieved over last two decades very good economic progress and all that without being a tyrant regime like China.

and that is why I prefer India to China.

Growth or no growth will depend upon the decision of the govt. India and China both will grow if the decision of the govt are good. But what China has done to the freedom of its citizens is horrific. You do not need to curtail your people's freedom to have growth.

so the success of India over last two decades shows that you do not need to be an oppressive regime like China to have economic success, and so I prefer Indian model of success to Chinese.

not only the success of India, but the failure of Russia also shows that it is not necessary that an oppressive regime would be successful.

So China is not successful because its oppressive. Its successful because someone took some good investment decisions. Same decisions could come from a liberal democratic govt. All this talk of 1.2 billion gullible Chinese is nothing but crap.

So when India is achieving success and I have all the freedom to live my life in India, why the hell would I ever want to go to oppressive anti freedom China.

 

[Yeti]

Some of what China builds is a total waste, they have whole ghost cities where nobody lives and they copy everything in the west with their cheap chinese copies this shows the lack of creativity in China not to mention the untold damage to the environment at the cost of a high growth rate which is not sustainable.

Chinese do not even trust their own baby milk power because when it comes to food safety and general safety they are third world yet they act like they are in the same league as EU or US.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Seriously? This is mail address of former chief of staff? Looks like a teenage WoW player account.....

lol, good one

 

[Kloitra]

why are you harping on 1950 to 1980s, 90s. You cannot change that now or can you?

why dont you live in present and stop wasting your time. The present reality is that India is second fastest growing country for last two decades. Now what more do you want.

and I dont care a damm what China has done. Because you cannot imply that China acheived success beacuse of the draconian anti freedom rules. That is Crap.

Indian govt followed wrong policies from 1950 to 1980s and as a result didnt have good progress. Simple as that. It has got to do with the decisions taken by the govt and whether they are right or wrong.

Same decisions China took they could have taken with a liberal and humane govt. and achieved all the success still. This is precisely what India has done in last two decades, and that is to lift millions out of poverty and become the second fastest growing economy and the 4th largest economy of the world.

So India has achieved over last two decades very good economic progress and all that without being a tyrant regime like China.

and that is why I prefer India to China.

Growth or no growth will depend upon the decision of the govt. India and China both will grow if the decision of the govt are good. But what China has done to the freedom of its citizens is horrific. You do not need to curtail your people's freedom to have growth.

so the success of India over last two decades shows that you do not need to be an oppressive regime like China to have economic success, and so I prefer Indian model of success to Chinese.

not only the success of India, but also the failure of Russia also shows that it is not necessary that an oppressive regime would be successful.

So China is not successful because its oppressive. Its successful because someone took some good investment decisions. Same decisions could come from a liberal democratic govt. All this talk of 1.2 billion gullible Chinese is nothing but crap.

So when India is achieving success and I have all the freedom to live my life in India, why the hell would I ever want to go to China.

I dont want to discuss this anymore. Lets just agree to disagree.

 

[Okemos]

Can I ask a question, from your signature, do you support the KMT?

I do because my surname is Chiang too and I am from Chiang Kai-Shek's hometown, haha. Well to be serious, people in my hometown suffered a lot since Zhejiang was the last place that KMT retreated. KMT also took away lots of youngsters to Taiwan when they retreated. When the CCP took over, we basically became the bastion of anti-KMT and anti-Taiwan, so we had lots of lots of a soldiers stationed there. Zhejiang province was purposefully under draconian control and under developed till Deng took over and then army started disappearing in late 1980s. Oh well, I think most people in Zhejiang have natural good feelings with KMT and Taiwan since Chiang Kai-Shek treated Zhejiang much better than CCP.

My signature was a joke in response to some Chinese members that called me KMT fanboy when I questioned some of the CCP's policies. Oh well, but I don't really care about either party and am not really interested in politics. I am only interested fair and objective views about China and the CCP.

 

[timetravel]

I dont want to discuss this anymore. Lets just agree to disagree.

there is nothing to disagree. we both agree that China has achieved economic success. I am also not doubting that.

But 100 times out of 100 I would prefer to achieve success the way India has done over last two decades, rather then going the Chinese oppressive way.

 

[Okemos]

so 1.2 billion Chinese are gullible.

But I thought they had high IQ and high IQ people are supposed to be intelligent and not gullible. isn't it.

though nice excuse by ccp to take away all freedom from the life's of billion people.

I never said that was the reason behind the CCP's policies and I am against any draconian restriction on people's freedom. I said China does have lots of gullible citizens that would believe in whatever written in media and I only pointed out what might happen if media is controlled by foreign conglomerates.

 

[Yeti]

there is nothing to disagree. we both agree that China has achieved economic success. I am also not doubting that.

But 100 times out of 100 I would prefer to achieve success the way India has done over last two decades, rather then going the Chinese oppressive way.

Sustainable growth is the way forward not the way China has done things which in the future they will pay a big price for

 

[timetravel]

I never said that was the reason behind the CCP's policies and I am against any draconian restriction on people's freedom. I said China does have lots of gullible citizens that would believe in whatever written in media and I only pointed out what might happen if media is controlled by foreign conglomerates.

when you say lots it does mean Majority... so lets say 0.7 billion Chinese are gullible then (and not 1.2 billions).

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I do because my surname is Chiang too and I am from Chiang Kai-Shek's hometown, haha. Well to be serious, people in my hometown suffered a lot since Zhejiang was the last place that KMT retreated. KMT also took away lots of youngsters to Taiwan when they retreated. When the CCP took over, we basically became the bastion of anti-KMT and anti-Taiwan, so we had lots of lots of a soldiers stationed there. Zhejiang province was purposefully under draconian control and under developed till Deng took over and then army started disappearing in late 1980s. Oh well, I think most people in Zhejiang have natural good feelings with KMT and Taiwan since Chiang Kai-Shek treated Zhejiang much better than CCP.

My signature was a joke in response to some Chinese members that called me KMT fanboy when I questioned some of the CCP's policies. Oh well, but I don't really care about either party and am not really interested in politics. I am only interested fair and objective views about China and the CCP.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

We do have some hard core KMT supporters here like Sonyuke, and some hard core CCP supporters like ChineseTiger, but I guess most Chinese members are generally neutral.