Rafale

[xebex]

Russia to india is like China is to pakistan... both are very strong partners.. IMO the reason why russia agreed to sell RD-93 to pakistan has to do more with political reason like sending strong message to india that if they dont maintain the required arms import from Russia their doors may open to pakistan..

wow, u think so?, if Russia ever ever open their market to Pakistan then they can kiss goodbye to Indian market once and for all. They know Russia is one of many defence supplier of India; moreover, US just joined the club. Russians will try their best to keep US away from Indian market and u can mark my word.

By the way howmuch defence contract Russia is going to get from Pakstan compared to India?? Last time when i checked, Russians aint stupid.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Do you see me criticize Al-khalid, or JF-17s? the reason why because they perfectly fit their role... in pak indo context Al-khalid is the best if not as good as T-90 MBT! JF-17 also fits perfectly in its role.. mean while... we pakistanis have seem to develop "anything made in china is the best bang for the bucks" without being neutral. 4 F-22P costs 750 million dollars.. Pakistan would have been better off with 2 state of the art light LaFayette stealth frigates (the pakistani version)... trust me their are quite a few more better option then upgraded type-053H3 the F-22P... what happened to quality over quantity?

Quality over quantity is still there but honestly tell me what kind of French or American were willing to offer ToT with their frigates? 750 million is not cost of one ship it is cost of whole deal including choppers, weapons, ToT etc... One ship or one plane can be only at one place at a time. So number does matter specially in out context where out enemy is getting all kind of weapons system from every corner of the world.

Pakistan also did reject some Chinese systems as well which were required but was not able to meet our requirements Y-2000 is one example, Pak could go for Chinese sub at very low cost than U-214, point is capability of a system is one thing viability in complex geopolitical situation is another. US systems are great and proven but do you honestly think Pakistan must opt for those? I don't think so.

As for as buying every Chinese system other than F-22P I am yet to see single weapon system or platform Pakistan brought from China in recent times with out customization and up-gradation JF-17, Al-Khalid, J-10B/FC-20, F-7PG... are some examples. It is viability and feasibility verses availability thing?

Rafale is there, Typhoons are there, F-15K are there, F-18SH are there, F-16 block16 are there, JSF Lightening II will be there... but tell me how many of these are feasible and viable for Pakistan keeping our geopolitical, geo-economical situation. You may get the answer. We all know Western systems are always been preferred by armed forces but if they have taken a long and troublesome route then there must be some reasons behind that.

Last it is discussion forum and you have all the right to have your opinion and I respect that but I also differ it.

 

[yesboss]

not like this....
start with

Thanks for helping.

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[Myth_buster_1]

Quality over quantity is still there but honestly tell me what kind of French or American were willing to offer ToT with their frigates? 750 million is not cost of one ship it is cost of whole deal including choppers, weapons, ToT etc... One ship or one plane can be only at one place at a time. So number does matter specially in out context where out enemy is getting all kind of weapons system from every corner of the world.

Dear I know 750 is not the cost of one frigate. France is specially very keen to sell their frigates subs aircraft etc to pakistan. They have already offered us their top of the line Gowind corvette series, and next generation Fremm frigate.. So are you telling me that France wont sell La Fayette class stealthy frigates? You know at least with the acquisition of such frigate PN will at least have a platform which will be technically par with Indian frigates.. Where does F-22P stand in Talwar or Shivalik class?

Pakistan also did reject some Chinese systems as well which were required but was not able to meet our requirements Y-2000 is one example,

Huh? what Y-2000 are you talking about? you mean the ZDK-03? well.... to be honest if pakistan kept its previous plan of 7 Erieyes they would have been much better of with it.

Pak could go for Chinese sub at very low cost than U-214, point is capability of a system is one thing viability in complex geopolitical situation is another.

i dont understand what are you trying to say.... Type-214 under TOT and indigenous production is not a better option then Chinese Diesel subs?

US systems are great and proven but do you honestly think Pakistan must opt for those? I don't think so.

Yes they are great.. In 80s Pakistan did not have the luxury of surplus amount of spares but today they have made sure that even after US sanction our F-16s will be still fully operational and plus TAI will be always their with us.

As for as buying every Chinese system other than F-22P I am yet to see single weapon system or platform Pakistan brought from China in recent times with out customization and up-gradation JF-17, Al-Khalid, J-10B/FC-20, F-7PG...

Thanks for proving my point. btw i am not here to criticize China but the fact that we did not use our new frigate procurement option that well. thats why i am not in favor of this F-22P deal...

Rafale is there, Typhoons are there, F-15K are there, F-18SH are there, F-16 block16 are there, JSF Lightening II will be there... but tell me how many of these are feasible and viable for Pakistan keeping our geopolitical, geo-economical situation. You may get the answer. We all know Western systems are always been preferred by armed forces but if they have taken a long and troublesome route then there must be some reasons behind that.

abbay yaarrr....
You do know that PN will acquire more sensitive western technology the Type-214 so Rafeal should not be a problem...

 

[MZUBAIR]

PAF would have been much better off with 18 Rafaels instead of 36 J-10B.

J-10B has a different role.....and PAF bought 36 for evaluation. J-10B is good against MKI.

Any ways ...I heard PAF is thinking to counter Indian MRCA deal and the choice would be Eurofighter or Rafeal

 

[MZUBAIR]

J-10B estimated price is said to be around 40-45 million dollars.. By the time it enters in service 4.5 generation MRCA will be ahead and J-10B will be 10 years behind, so we cant really associated "great bang for the bucks" with J-10B. JF-17 blockII and III will prove to be as good as the J-10B so i dont really see a need to go for another similar platform. EF or Rafeal would have been a better high tech solution to counter IAF SH and MKI threat....

Dear dont underestimate J-10B......may be its not more but not less then Rafeal. and the most imp thing that both dont have AESA rdar. If u want Western fighter then Typjoon is batter with AESA radar.

 

[MZUBAIR]

JF-17 Block II or III will not upgraded in a way that will increase its cost too much. So i don't see much changes in airframe, I think it is freezed may be a full buble canopy come up but no much more. It will be updated electronically to keep the cost down and to minimize the per unit price. PAF need these in numbers. It is not Hi-Tech aircraft in PAF. Hi-tech end will remain with J-10B,F-16M + may be one European one but that is unlikely at present.

We can afford J-10B in hundreds but not rafale or Typhoons. Going for Western avionics package is good and i am afraid if Rafale quits from MRCA French will make every possible effort to sell this to PAF as it has yet to find any customer. Best option is to invest in J-10B more and more any Western solution would be temporary.

JF-17 will surely come up with block 2 n 3 and with heavy changings. just wait for next 1 year.


Besides that PAF started thinking abt western jets to counter Indian MRCA deal.........Read in paper comments of COAirS. Dont worry PAF is not sleeping. They re doing more then they show (on media)

 

[MZUBAIR]

Will Russia be allowing us ZHuk AESA radars? What about europe? Will J-10B be lucky enough to receive par to european 4.5 generation MRCA avionics radars and other systems? What about armament package? Chinese cant offer any better AAM then SD-10 and mind you MICA and Aim-120 C5 are much more capable AAMs..
Sorry to say but if FC-20 is entirely a Chinese system then PAF has to seriously think again..

Let me tell u few things...J-10B is designed on the request of PAF for western avionics. Thats y the project delayed. RAdar will also be PESA as used in SU-30. Just let them come in air.

J-10B: An upgraded variant of J-10. Existence is not confirmed by official Chinese sources but numerous images of a new J-10 variant have appeared, showing a prototype J-10 modified with a diverterless supersonic intake (DSI), an infra-red search and track (IRST) sensor, modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, housings fitted under the wings and a modified nose that could indicate a new type of radar.[26][27] This variant may be the same aircraft as "Super-10", a variant reported by Russian sources in January 2006 to be under development and incorporating a passive phased array (PESA) radar, stronger airframe and the Saturn AL-31FN M1 turbofan engine with 3D thrust vector control (TVC).

 

[PakShaheen79]

Dear I know 750 is not the cost of one frigate. France is specially very keen to sell their frigates subs aircraft etc to pakistan. They have already offered us their top of the line Gowind corvette series, and next generation Fremm frigate.. So are you telling me that France wont sell La Fayette class stealthy frigates? You know at least with the acquisition of such frigate PN will at least have a platform which will be technically par with Indian frigates.. Where does F-22P stand in Talwar or Shivalik class?

We are already getting two types of frigates one from China and other from US. How many types more you want??

Huh? what Y-2000 are you talking about? you mean the ZDK-03? well.... to be honest if pakistan kept its previous plan of 7 Erieyes they would have been much better of with it.

Y-2000 has nothing to do with ZDK-03 I think it is more better two have two different types of AEW plateform looking into enemy space so that if enemy somehow can manage compromise one other might have chance to come up with result and Why to put all eggs in one basket?

i dont understand what are you trying to say.... Type-214 under TOT and indigenous production is not a better option then Chinese Diesel subs?

Stop trying to twist my words and read carefully what i said. Pakistan did choose U-214 over Chinese subs based on Quality because it believe that Chinese are not there on par with Europe when it comes to Submarines... Fighter jets are another story.

Yes they are great.. In 80s Pakistan did not have the luxury of surplus amount of spares but today they have made sure that even after US sanction our F-16s will be still fully operational and plus TAI will be always their with us.

Did u read all that Harpoons modified illegally reports? I think it speaks well about what Pakistan can and what cannot with US systems... Would TAI be there if Pak go for something available only in US or Britain?

Thanks for proving my point. btw i am not here to criticize China but the fact that we did not use our new frigate procurement option that well. thats why i am not in favor of this F-22P deal...

Well that is your opinion, and i respect that with a difference now I think it is pretty good keeping in mind US frigates which are on order. OHP class, I think with some modifications.

abbay yaarrr....
You do know that PN will acquire more sensitive western technology the Type-214 so Rafeal should not be a problem...

Do you really understand Geo-economic and Geo-Political?? If we can settle there we may even get F-35 let alone Rafale.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

We are already getting two types of frigates one from China and other from US. How many types more you want??

Both F-22P and OHP are not enough to hold on indian navy surface fleet.. PN has already said that they will go beyond F-22P into something like 3,500 plus tonne class frigates and not to forget Destroyers that they have really shown the urge to acquire.

Y-2000 has nothing to do with ZDK-03

Can i know what is Y-2000?

I think it is more better two have two different types of AEW plateform looking into enemy space so that if enemy somehow can manage compromise one other might have chance to come up with result and Why to put all eggs in one basket?

The chances of India cracking up the system is very very slim... and obviously Sweden will never do such thing as it will only hurt their own defence industry... costumers will run away..... and plus... india is not like UK.... in 80s France did provide Exocet codes to britian to crack up exocet.. which later on made them noneffective against britian.

Stop trying to twist my words and read carefully what i said. Pakistan did choose U-214 over Chinese subs based on Quality because it believe that Chinese are not there on par with Europe when it comes to Submarines... Fighter jets are another story.

No twisting words is not my intention.
Without shadow of a dough Chinese indigenous air power still lags behind western standard by far... or please i will be very delightful if you could elaborate on how "chinese indigenous fighters are another story"?

Did u read all that Harpoons modified illegally reports? I think it speaks well about what Pakistan can and what cannot with US systems... Would TAI be there if Pak go for something available only in US or Britain?

Yes i did.. and last time i check... PN recived new block II Harpoons and ordered more.. its a usual cry by the indians.. isnt that what they try to do with the F-16 deal??? "PAF F-16s to be used against India not WOT".. and btw... we pakistanis are really mistaken badly... China would never ever want their systems in US hands.... and trust me the consequences will be much worse. and even chinese keep close eye on us just like the US... not making this up by telling you what military officers have said... and neither am i going to get anything in return for apparently "trying to say bad about china". which i am not.

Do you really understand Geo-economic and Geo-Political?? If we can settle there we may even get F-35 let alone Rafale.

And remarkably we are about to get Type-214 which by far much more sensitive technology then Rafael..

 

[PakShaheen79]

Both F-22P and OHP are not enough to hold on indian navy surface fleet.. PN has already said that they will go beyond F-22P into something like 3,500 plus tonne class frigates and not to forget Destroyers that they have really shown the urge to acquire.

Well if we go for tit for tat with IN we will never end in good shape due to our economy and relatively very small sea space to defend. How many surface ship will be procured and when it is bound with doctrine of PN which is right now is to keep Pakistan sea lane open in war time and coastal defense. Surely PN will go beyond F-22P but with time not now. And if PN has shown the resolve to acquire more surface ship that means they are doing their part smartly... no need for tell that this deal was bad and that was good.

Can i know what is Y-2000?

Sorry for my ignorance Was referring to KJ-2000 Mainring.Which PAF evaluated but reject even before going for Erieye.

The chances of India cracking up the system is very very slim... and obviously Sweden will never do such thing as it will only hurt their own defence industry... costumers will run away..... and plus... india is not like UK.... in 80s France did provide Exocet codes to britian to crack up exocet.. which later on made them noneffective against britian

so you also know things like these has happened and can happen i future as well. If some Western firm (say for Money) provide sensitive info to India in middle of war that will be a nightmare. Technically Pak can't relay on China only.... same way Politically Pak can not relay on West alone.

Without shadow of a dough Chinese indigenous air power still lags behind western standard by far... or please i will be very delightful if you could elaborate on how "chinese indigenous fighters are another story"?

Again u read it incorrectly Chinese will not allow to look into their subs as you urself said but fighter jet are different story. I think now you got my point. Even inferior Chinese would not allow to customize their subs like they allow on their fighter jets.

Yes i did.. and last time i check... PN recived new block II Harpoons and ordered more.. its a usual cry by the indians.. isnt that what they try to do with the F-16 deal??? "PAF F-16s to be used against India not WOT".. and btw... we pakistanis are really mistaken badly... China would never ever want their systems in US hands.... and trust me the consequences will be much worse. and even chinese keep close eye on us just like the US... not making this up by telling you what military officers have said... and neither am i going to get anything in return for apparently "trying to say bad about china". which i am not.

It was not Indian media which broke the story but was NY Times and also F-16 fuss was from US congressmen Indian media just picked both stories and keep it alive as long as they could.

We are on agreement like US/West .. China will not allow some of its system to be customized by European systems. because it will send a very -ve message to its other customers in the world specially when a friend like Pakistan will be doing this with every Chinese product. Also technology espionage is another thing which u also mentioned. Still this reluctance of China does not made US a reliable supplier.

And remarkably we are about to get Type-214 which by far much more sensitive technology then Rafael..

What kind of comparison is this...A sub to Fighter... ?? But still u have a point

 

[SpArK]

 

[SpArK]

 

[Super Falcon]

well rafale is dream to fly by any pilots

 

[razgriz19]