Rafale true force multiplier, a pair is equal to Six Mirage-2000s, deal with India soon: Dassault Ch

[SQ8]

One of the biggest bloopers in Indian Technological History... The entire objective being - adopting a Government Owned Development agency and a separate Government owned production agency, much like the Soviets. The idea that we needed a separate design agency than HAL- Backfired immensely.

Considering that the era of the time was in love with the Soviets and it was all a big hug out, they committed a massive blunder.

 

[proud_indian]

Considering that the era of the time was in love with the Soviets and it was all a big hug out, they committed a massive blunder.

but it's never too late.
We have been catching up and not too many nations can develop a 4th generation fighter.

 

[SQ8]

but it's never too late.
We have been catching up and not too many nations can develop a 4th generation fighter.

Not too many nations in what sense? If you are comparing yourself to swaziland then good luck with that thinking.


The Main European nations are, the swedes have, the Japanese have, the South Africans make a practically new jet with the Cheetah despite similar sanctions as India. Considering its size, its manpower and available techies; India has bumbled about on its defence sector like a toddler. And the Tejas is more late than a dead man's obituary when it comes to the IAF requirements.

In two years India will hit 70 years old, by that time a nation of India's size and manpower should have achieved much more than it has. It is never too late, but it is important to know how badly you screwed up and admit it to yourselves.
Before you cry the deal of sanctions and what not; remember that just like India, China also was a darling of the Soviets before it was left high and dry.. went through a madness known as the cultural revolution.. and still manages to produce a 5th generation combat aircraft with everything it needs today.

By contrast, India which for all intents and purposes had better access to technology and also had a darling period with the Russians and the French and everyone else. Yet struggled to get a 4th generation fighter to its primary customer 32 years after project inception. So how is it, that the same Indians are able to do rather well in the west and make the top in tech firms everywhere and at home have two major defence projects that are for the lack of a better moniker...an insult to development?

You want to know how?
Because out there under a western boss, if the Indian screws up and then says "Its never too late , we are catching up".. he is told to pack his bags and get the hell out of the firm and go back to nodding his head. But when his countryman works hard from the start and knows that any mistake means going on the street..and not some self appeasing comment.. they work wonders and send rockets into space.
The same Indians are able to come up with private firms that are the envy of many in their reigion, because they are cut throat and know that their pockets are not going to be filled if they dont work. They dont take excuses for "catching up" and "being late".

There is a reason why there is a massive difference in how ISRO performs and the LCA team did does even though they are both Indian; the former has the right people at the top who know the cost of mistakes and time. The latter seems to be stuck patting their own backs on "but we developed a fighter aircraft, we have conquered the world!"

It is the reason why Dassault might be reluctant to work with HAL In the first place, and it is common among desi organizations that get caught in bureaucratic rut. They develop a "chai samosa" culture and the people that join them become that, knowing that they will get their chai at 10am, 2pm and 4pm.. they just punch their cards regardless of whether they work or not.. living on self illusion of "we developed a fighter jet", "we made a nuclear bomb".

This idiotic romanticism for minor or sour grape achievements is a disease that afflicts desis, and I am sick of seeing it everywhere.

 

[Spectre]

Not too many nations in what sense? If you are comparing yourself to swaziland then good luck with that thinking.


The Main European nations are, the swedes have, the Japanese have, the South Africans make a practically new jet with the Cheetah despite similar sanctions as India. Considering its size, its manpower and available techies; India has bumbled about on its defence sector like a toddler. And the Tejas is more late than a dead man's obituary when it comes to the IAF requirements.

In two years India will hit 70 years old, by that time a nation of India's size and manpower should have achieved much more than it has. It is never too late, but it is important to know how badly you screwed up and admit it to yourselves.
Before you cry the deal of sanctions and what not; remember that just like India, China also was a darling of the Soviets before it was left high and dry.. went through a madness known as the cultural revolution.. and still manages to produce a 5th generation combat aircraft with everything it needs today.

By contrast, India which for all intents and purposes had better access to technology and also had a darling period with the Russians and the French and everyone else. Yet struggled to get a 4th generation fighter to its primary customer 32 years after project inception. So how is it, that the same Indians are able to do rather well in the west and make the top in tech firms everywhere and at home have two major defence projects that are for the lack of a better moniker...an insult to development?

You want to know how?
Because out there under a western boss, if the Indian screws up and then says "Its never too late , we are catching up".. he is told to pack his bags and get the hell out of the firm and go back to nodding his head. But when his countryman works hard from the start and knows that any mistake means going on the street..and not some self appeasing comment.. they work wonders and send rockets into space.
The same Indians are able to come up with private firms that are the envy of many in their reigion, because they are cut throat and know that their pockets are not going to be filled if they dont work. They dont take excuses for "catching up" and "being late".

There is a reason why there is a massive difference in how ISRO performs and the LCA team did does even though they are both Indian; the former has the right people at the top who know the cost of mistakes and time. The latter seems to be stuck patting their own backs on "but we developed a fighter aircraft, we have conquered the world!"

It is the reason why Dassault might be reluctant to work with HAL In the first place, and it is common among desi organizations that get caught in bureaucratic rut. They develop a "chai samosa" culture and the people that join them become that, knowing that they will get their chai at 10am, 2pm and 4pm.. they just punch their cards regardless of whether they work or not.. living on self illusion of "we developed a fighter jet", "we made a nuclear bomb".

This idiotic romanticism for minor or sour grape achievements is a disease that afflicts desis, and I am sick of seeing it everywhere.

Excellent post, I have always considered our worst enemy to be good - enough and mediocrity.

 

[proud_indian]

Not too many nations in what sense? If you are comparing yourself to swaziland then good luck with that thinking.


The Main European nations are, the swedes have, the Japanese have, the South Africans make a practically new jet with the Cheetah despite similar sanctions as India. Considering its size, its manpower and available techies; India has bumbled about on its defence sector like a toddler. And the Tejas is more late than a dead man's obituary when it comes to the IAF requirements.

In two years India will hit 70 years old, by that time a nation of India's size and manpower should have achieved much more than it has. It is never too late, but it is important to know how badly you screwed up and admit it to yourselves.
Before you cry the deal of sanctions and what not; remember that just like India, China also was a darling of the Soviets before it was left high and dry.. went through a madness known as the cultural revolution.. and still manages to produce a 5th generation combat aircraft with everything it needs today.

By contrast, India which for all intents and purposes had better access to technology and also had a darling period with the Russians and the French and everyone else. Yet struggled to get a 4th generation fighter to its primary customer 32 years after project inception. So how is it, that the same Indians are able to do rather well in the west and make the top in tech firms everywhere and at home have two major defence projects that are for the lack of a better moniker...an insult to development?

You want to know how?
Because out there under a western boss, if the Indian screws up and then says "Its never too late , we are catching up".. he is told to pack his bags and get the hell out of the firm and go back to nodding his head. But when his countryman works hard from the start and knows that any mistake means going on the street..and not some self appeasing comment.. they work wonders and send rockets into space.
The same Indians are able to come up with private firms that are the envy of many in their reigion, because they are cut throat and know that their pockets are not going to be filled if they dont work. They dont take excuses for "catching up" and "being late".

There is a reason why there is a massive difference in how ISRO performs and the LCA team did does even though they are both Indian; the former has the right people at the top who know the cost of mistakes and time. The latter seems to be stuck patting their own backs on "but we developed a fighter aircraft, we have conquered the world!"

It is the reason why Dassault might be reluctant to work with HAL In the first place, and it is common among desi organizations that get caught in bureaucratic rut. They develop a "chai samosa" culture and the people that join them become that, knowing that they will get their chai at 10am, 2pm and 4pm.. they just punch their cards regardless of whether they work or not.. living on self illusion of "we developed a fighter jet", "we made a nuclear bomb".

This idiotic romanticism for minor or sour grape achievements is a disease that afflicts desis, and I am sick of seeing it everywhere.

Don't take me wrong.
I am not saying that we have done wonder in technology or anything?

I do agree with you, We are among the most under achieving nation and and I am not saying that we had been going through sanctions and we were poor back than and had to feed first kind of blah blah.

What I was impaling is that we have done many blunders throughout our modern history as the marut fiasco but after all those blunders we are back on track and sooner or later we will sought out those bottlenecks we are lagging behind.

 

[chanikya]

Bhai come on . On what basis you keep believing in 150or 180 Rafales ?

For this to happened Rafale should decrease its greedy price tag as they say they are costly because of their omni role anc eqyals to 3 mirages . Thats not how a fighter jets will be bought by India . Final cost of 124 will cost us 20-25 billion dollars as years pass away the cost escalate gradually . I know a time when we made su30 for 35 mil . Its hardly a decade check the made in india su30 price .

I too wish our airforce to have costly toys like Rafales . But can we afford it ? We need to fill 300 plus migs . Not to mention we need to add another 300 or at least 200 new jets to fight two front war . Its better to go for 36 rafale and 80 pakfa along with tejas MK1-P . What am saying is practical , easily achievable because we can afford it . You might say PAKFA are costly too but they are futuristic and our only hope for 5 th generation fighter against chinese J20 and many more improved variants .

So lets not carried away . I like rafale M on vishal . But 36 or additional 18 are more than enough for IAF .



We will hit two targets in one stone if we go for pakfa . We prepare our pilots for futuristic warfare , it solves our BVR problem against 5th generation fighter . Rafale more like a bomb trucks with sneak peek ability . But I dont think we will be able to solve BVR problem as more than a missile range RCS plays very important role . So against J20 our probable enemy we could confront Pakfa brings that AWE and Shock factor in to our enemy's heart .

Hmm what you have said is right, but FGFA can't do what Rafale can do

 

[Donatello]

Currently, Only five nations can build and produce engines.........USA, Russia, France, England and Germany.


India, China and Japan are currently working on it.

Sweden builds as well.......Volvo Aero......they've build some good stuff in the past.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Hmm what you have said is right, but FGFA can't do what Rafale can do

What rafale can fo which pakfa can't ? Dont know why we came to this kind of conclusion . Like no other fighter can effectively undertake A2G role . As far as am concerned IAF already posses maximum win ratio against Pakistan targets a decade ago . All we need is good deep strike aircraft which can evade chinese radars and do havoc deeo inside china .

 

[trident2010]

Not too many nations in what sense? If you are comparing yourself to swaziland then good luck with that thinking.


The Main European nations are, the swedes have, the Japanese have, the South Africans make a practically new jet with the Cheetah despite similar sanctions as India. Considering its size, its manpower and available techies; India has bumbled about on its defence sector like a toddler. And the Tejas is more late than a dead man's obituary when it comes to the IAF requirements.

In two years India will hit 70 years old, by that time a nation of India's size and manpower should have achieved much more than it has. It is never too late, but it is important to know how badly you screwed up and admit it to yourselves.
Before you cry the deal of sanctions and what not; remember that just like India, China also was a darling of the Soviets before it was left high and dry.. went through a madness known as the cultural revolution.. and still manages to produce a 5th generation combat aircraft with everything it needs today.

By contrast, India which for all intents and purposes had better access to technology and also had a darling period with the Russians and the French and everyone else. Yet struggled to get a 4th generation fighter to its primary customer 32 years after project inception. So how is it, that the same Indians are able to do rather well in the west and make the top in tech firms everywhere and at home have two major defence projects that are for the lack of a better moniker...an insult to development?

You want to know how?
Because out there under a western boss, if the Indian screws up and then says "Its never too late , we are catching up".. he is told to pack his bags and get the hell out of the firm and go back to nodding his head. But when his countryman works hard from the start and knows that any mistake means going on the street..and not some self appeasing comment.. they work wonders and send rockets into space.
The same Indians are able to come up with private firms that are the envy of many in their reigion, because they are cut throat and know that their pockets are not going to be filled if they dont work. They dont take excuses for "catching up" and "being late".

There is a reason why there is a massive difference in how ISRO performs and the LCA team did does even though they are both Indian; the former has the right people at the top who know the cost of mistakes and time. The latter seems to be stuck patting their own backs on "but we developed a fighter aircraft, we have conquered the world!"

It is the reason why Dassault might be reluctant to work with HAL In the first place, and it is common among desi organizations that get caught in bureaucratic rut. They develop a "chai samosa" culture and the people that join them become that, knowing that they will get their chai at 10am, 2pm and 4pm.. they just punch their cards regardless of whether they work or not.. living on self illusion of "we developed a fighter jet", "we made a nuclear bomb".

This idiotic romanticism for minor or sour grape achievements is a disease that afflicts desis, and I am sick of seeing it everywhere.

Good post and correct analysis. There is no denying that Indian defense organisations did not delivered as expected but the more important question is "did we learn from our mistakes"? It is the same DRDO which gave us Agni V and BMD, so talent is not an issue. What is need to be seen is how we can finish these projects and complete the new projects on time. Things are not bad as they were 20 years back.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Not too many nations in what sense? If you are comparing yourself to swaziland then good luck with that thinking.


The Main European nations are, the swedes have, the Japanese have, the South Africans make a practically new jet with the Cheetah despite similar sanctions as India. Considering its size, its manpower and available techies; India has bumbled about on its defence sector like a toddler. And the Tejas is more late than a dead man's obituary when it comes to the IAF requirements.

In two years India will hit 70 years old, by that time a nation of India's size and manpower should have achieved much more than it has. It is never too late, but it is important to know how badly you screwed up and admit it to yourselves.
Before you cry the deal of sanctions and what not; remember that just like India, China also was a darling of the Soviets before it was left high and dry.. went through a madness known as the cultural revolution.. and still manages to produce a 5th generation combat aircraft with everything it needs today.

By contrast, India which for all intents and purposes had better access to technology and also had a darling period with the Russians and the French and everyone else. Yet struggled to get a 4th generation fighter to its primary customer 32 years after project inception. So how is it, that the same Indians are able to do rather well in the west and make the top in tech firms everywhere and at home have two major defence projects that are for the lack of a better moniker...an insult to development?

You want to know how?
Because out there under a western boss, if the Indian screws up and then says "Its never too late , we are catching up".. he is told to pack his bags and get the hell out of the firm and go back to nodding his head. But when his countryman works hard from the start and knows that any mistake means going on the street..and not some self appeasing comment.. they work wonders and send rockets into space.
The same Indians are able to come up with private firms that are the envy of many in their reigion, because they are cut throat and know that their pockets are not going to be filled if they dont work. They dont take excuses for "catching up" and "being late".

There is a reason why there is a massive difference in how ISRO performs and the LCA team did does even though they are both Indian; the former has the right people at the top who know the cost of mistakes and time. The latter seems to be stuck patting their own backs on "but we developed a fighter aircraft, we have conquered the world!"

It is the reason why Dassault might be reluctant to work with HAL In the first place, and it is common among desi organizations that get caught in bureaucratic rut. They develop a "chai samosa" culture and the people that join them become that, knowing that they will get their chai at 10am, 2pm and 4pm.. they just punch their cards regardless of whether they work or not.. living on self illusion of "we developed a fighter jet", "we made a nuclear bomb".

This idiotic romanticism for minor or sour grape achievements is a disease that afflicts desis, and I am sick of seeing it everywhere.

That is terribly accurate.....
Two Major Indian Strategic Organisations have delivered and nearly consistently at that..... DAE and ISRO; incidentally both grew under the same umbrella to start with. Of them, I have seen DAE closely and know little about ISRO, the "make-or-break Factor" there was the standard of Leadership. Leadership constantly set standards for themselves and for the led. This is not so common in India.

In my case, I began my career in India, but soon went to work overseas; that is where I found that I could not only match up to but even exceed the requirements, all I had to do was to make the choice. The incentives and disincentives both existed.

Let me give an example about standards defining the man. In the 2000s, one of our ships had a serious accident/incident on board. While ship remained afloat, there was serious internal damage. For repairs, we selected a Dubai based Ship-Repair unit. Most (if not all) the workmen were ex-Cochin Shipyard. That is when I had serious misgivings, since I had seen that lot in early days of CSL where they spent more time and energy waving Red-Flags than doing any worth-while work. So I made my misgivings amply clear, more so since our plan was not to put the ship out of operations, and into repair lay-off. But to curtail some of the normal operations and cargo while keeping her operational all the time. Which was considered difficult if not nearly impossible. The situation was explained, the work very closely monitored and completed successfully well within all parameters. Later when interacting with the Men. I spoke about it all. Their reply was simply: the system there was different and now it is different, we have no choice but to adapt! That seems to be essentially the crux of the problem in India. Luckily the Pvt Sector has changed radically, but the PSUs have not to the extent that it must.

So if the youth in India wants to change their lives dramatically; I'd still say to them get "your damn a$$es out of the country, change your work-culture; collect/remit as much money as you can; come back to India and turn every thing topsy-turvy". Disruption never harmed anyone. It was more difficult in our times, it is far easier now, in India.

Considering that the era of the time was in love with the Soviets and it was all a big hug out, they committed a massive blunder.

The Soviet Connection was no Panacea; @Oscar. It gave India a chance to break into some big-ticket items and even up-scale with some degree of rapidity; but there were quite a few complications. While the Soviet Connection was a big boost in Industry esp Heavy Industry it had limitations. That was most apparent in the Defence Sector. The Armed Forces for instance had grown used to running things forever or till it broke; now had to confront very finite life-cycle times or "running hours". Something that they were unused to. Planned maintenance hitherto extended so far as cleaning something at so many hours or greasing something after so many hours etc. Changing and replacing components or even assemblies at clock-hours was quite alien. Which meant a serious revamp of the system including serious materials management issues on scarce budgets. That was something that people had to seriously re-adjust to. Even 'jugaad' had limited utility in the face of that.

Oscar; you know the experience of the PAF with the Chinese built MiG-17s and 19s in earlier days. Engines had to be changed in as little as 100 Hr intervals. Ground Crews were heavily loaded with this kind of routine, while aircraft availability was dodgy.
For instance; in the IAF, the Hunter and even the Gnat were easier to manage than the higher performance Fishbeds. The IAF took time to like the Mig-21 as a System, though they liked the Aircraft alright.

The IN had a similar experience; their Petyas could outrun any of their British built Frigates, but the spare/supply chain required was horrible. The Osa /Killer Missile Boats were even worse for maintenance.

Not everybody was enveloped in the Bear-Hug so easily or warmly.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Capt.Popeye @MilSpec

The comparision with ISRO and DAE is wrong as far as LCA is concerned

ISRO and DAE never had a BREAK of 30 YEARS

This GAP between LCA and HF 24 was what had to be bridged

If you look at LCA timelines 1990 the project design was finalised

In 1990, the design was finalised as a small tailless delta winged machine withrelaxed static stability (RSS) and control-configuration for enhanced manoeuvrability.[8][24][25] A review committee was formed in May 1989, which reported that infrastructure, facilities and technologies in India had advanced sufficiently in most areas and that the project could be undertaken.[25] In October 1987, project definition commenced with France's Dassault Aviation in a reviewing/advisory role; this phase, costing ₹560 crore (US$85 million), was completed in September 1988.[15][20] A two-stage full-scale engineering development (FSED) process was opted for.[15][25]

Then the FIRST flight of TD 1 was in 2001

Today in 2015 we are on the verge of FOC LCA

Add to it the INCREASING demands of IAF through frequent REVISION of ASQR

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now come to ISRO

The SLV programme was started in 1970 and SLV3 was perfected in 1983

The SLV3 then BECAME ASLV in 1990 and PSLV in 1995 and GSLV in 2014

Similarly satellite programmes started with Arya bhata in 1975 then
Rohini ; Bhaskar ; Apple and FINALLY INSAT satellite
in 1982

The earth observation satellites IRS series also started in 1988
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coming to DAE
Similarly DAE first started Tarapur Power plant in 1969

The Research activities in BARC had started earlier in CIRUS leading
to Pokhran 1 in 1974

After that there was NO help from the Global community and we went for PHWR
in Kalpakkam ; Narora and the Rest is History
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO my point is there was NO break of 25 to 30 years in ISRO and DAE activities

The Knowledge GAP was too much to cover for LCA

In 1990 when the project design was finalised then already
Mirage 2000 and F 16 were proven and successful for atleast 10 plus years

Our LCA was supposed to be their equal
But our scientists were aware of only HF 24

@Capt.Popeye

The Government was already financing ISRO and DAE
DRDO was a LOW priority till SLV 3 was perfected by APJ Abdul Kalam

Thereafter Indira Gandhi started IGMDP

The Integrated Guided Missile Development programme
This was based on the knowledge GAINED from SLV 3

Infact when Prithvi and Agni missiles were tested
ONLY then we came to KNOW about the
existence of DRDO

We had a very weak economy till mid nineties

Add to it the PRESSURE of building a Conventional war fighting capability
which came from Licence manufacture of MiGs and T 72 s

Where was the MONEY till mid nineties to spend on R and D

 

[dreamer4eva]

Not too many nations in what sense? If you are comparing yourself to swaziland then good luck with that thinking.


The Main European nations are, the swedes have, the Japanese have, the South Africans make a practically new jet with the Cheetah despite similar sanctions as India. Considering its size, its manpower and available techies; India has bumbled about on its defence sector like a toddler. And the Tejas is more late than a dead man's obituary when it comes to the IAF requirements.

In two years India will hit 70 years old, by that time a nation of India's size and manpower should have achieved much more than it has. It is never too late, but it is important to know how badly you screwed up and admit it to yourselves.
Before you cry the deal of sanctions and what not; remember that just like India, China also was a darling of the Soviets before it was left high and dry.. went through a madness known as the cultural revolution.. and still manages to produce a 5th generation combat aircraft with everything it needs today.

By contrast, India which for all intents and purposes had better access to technology and also had a darling period with the Russians and the French and everyone else. Yet struggled to get a 4th generation fighter to its primary customer 32 years after project inception. So how is it, that the same Indians are able to do rather well in the west and make the top in tech firms everywhere and at home have two major defence projects that are for the lack of a better moniker...an insult to development?

You want to know how?
Because out there under a western boss, if the Indian screws up and then says "Its never too late , we are catching up".. he is told to pack his bags and get the hell out of the firm and go back to nodding his head. But when his countryman works hard from the start and knows that any mistake means going on the street..and not some self appeasing comment.. they work wonders and send rockets into space.
The same Indians are able to come up with private firms that are the envy of many in their reigion, because they are cut throat and know that their pockets are not going to be filled if they dont work. They dont take excuses for "catching up" and "being late".

There is a reason why there is a massive difference in how ISRO performs and the LCA team did does even though they are both Indian; the former has the right people at the top who know the cost of mistakes and time. The latter seems to be stuck patting their own backs on "but we developed a fighter aircraft, we have conquered the world!"

It is the reason why Dassault might be reluctant to work with HAL In the first place, and it is common among desi organizations that get caught in bureaucratic rut. They develop a "chai samosa" culture and the people that join them become that, knowing that they will get their chai at 10am, 2pm and 4pm.. they just punch their cards regardless of whether they work or not.. living on self illusion of "we developed a fighter jet", "we made a nuclear bomb".

This idiotic romanticism for minor or sour grape achievements is a disease that afflicts desis, and I am sick of seeing it everywhere.

Geez, you do know about Indian work culture. Hit the nail on the head. Excellent post..

 

[majid mehmood]

India should only go for fgfa not rafale
fgfa is lot better plane than rafale and is lower cost
if rafale planes deal is singed than it would be delivered around 2017-2019 at that time u would be start getting fgfa
raflae type planes as stop gap should have been signed in 2000- 2007 now no need of stop gaps for India
only Pakistan for now need a good plane i mean a heavy fighter such as j 11 or su 35 ,f 18
both countries should concentrate on their indigenous products