Rafale proposal 'effectively dead' as Dassault bid not cheapest

[CONNAN]

 

[possumlot]

LOL. As expected, the MoD is preparing grounds for dumping the Rafale.

This is the second reason in case Dassault contest the "not sticking to RFP" reason.

All in All it is certain that the deal is DEAD. .............. Now MoD needs to pretend to negotiate and then wait till March and then declare that the deal died because it has exceeded its time frame allotted for negotiations. That will be reason no 3.

Looks like Su 30MKI and LCA is going to be the immediate future. LCA MK2 and AMCA is going to get some SERIOUS Backing too

 

[janon]

LOL. As expected, the MoD is preparing grounds for dumping the Rafale.

This is the second reason in case Dassault contest the "not sticking to RFP" reason.

All in All it is certain that the deal is DEAD. .............. Now MoD needs to pretend to negotiate and then wait till March and then declare that the deal died because it has exceeded its time frame allotted for negotiations. That will be reason no 3.

Looks like Su 30MKI and LCA is going to be the immediate future. LCA MK2 and AMCA is going to get some SERIOUS Backing too

The only drawback would be that we would be entirely dependant on Russia. Financially it makes a lot of sense. It never made sense to purchase the most expensive 4th gen jets in the world as a "stop gap measure".

 

[GORKHALI]

So you have convinced yourself that India is frightened of those 13 third hand jets, but India making much superior and new MKIs in larger numbers each year is not a big deal for Pakistanis.

OK, whatever makes you sleep well.

But it's still funny to hear your countryman taunting India for lack of money, when third hand jets are all you can afford.

(BTW, India was interested in purchasing barely used Mirage-2000-5 MK2, unlike Pakistan desperately purchasing ancient Mirage-3 or twice discarded F-16s.)

Now,He will come up with Su 30MkI escorted by F16 story.

 

[possumlot]

The only drawback would be that we would be entirely dependant on Russia. Financially it makes a lot of sense. It never made sense to purchase the most expensive 4th gen jets in the world as a "stop gap measure".

That will always be the case unless we start manufacturing our own Aircraft's. Better late than Never.

I just wish IAF will buckle up and join this National effort. But if they don't do it by choice, let them do it out of desperation. After all necessity is the mother of all inventions.

 

[Windjammer]

So you have convinced yourself that India is frightened of those 13 third hand jets, but India making much superior and new MKIs in larger numbers each year is not a big deal for Pakistanis.

OK, whatever makes you sleep well.

But it's still funny to hear your countryman taunting India for lack of money, when third hand jets are all you can afford.

I was talking about the reaction of Indians in their respective paper columns and online forums.
BTW, if you recall even the purchase of these second hand F-16s was out of the blue, much less making a song and dance about it all for decades.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Windjammer

Even if the Rafale deal does NOT happen it means TWO things are happening

1 SU 30 MKI Upgrades are going well and we will have a more powerful Su 30 MKI

2 More FGFA ; that is also good news

ANY way we are committed to have an Airforce capable to fight a TWO FRONT war
That is our EXPLICIT Aim and goal

We have the money and HENCE the options

 

[CONNAN]

@Windjammer @janon
please stop derailing the thread yaaro whats the point

you guys can fight here

Corruption in Indian armed forces: SHINING INDIA | Page 2

 

[janon]

That will always be the case unless we start manufacturing our own Aircraft's. Better late than Never.

If we have frontline fighters from France and Russia (like we had mirages and mig-29s), then at least we won't be held hostage by one entity. One of the reasons touted for the MRCA was diversifying the supply chain. Also, getting European technology and manufacturing practices.

But yes, for the prices being quoted, it just doesn't seem worthwhile. Adding a hundred MKIs and a lot more Tejas will be cheaper.

The smart thing to do now would be to cancel the MRCA thingy, add another production line for Tejas (or increase the capacity of the existing line, if possible), and make another few DRDO AWACS. One AWACS on the Embraer costs less than two or three Rafales! An LCA squadron with AWACS support has to be good enough for most purposes.

 

[possumlot]

If we have frontline fighters from France and Russia (like we had mirages and mig-29s), then at least we won't be held hostage by one entity. One of the reasons touted for the MRCA was diversifying the supply chain. Also, getting European technology and manufacturing practices.

But yes, for the prices being quoted, it just doesn't seem worthwhile. Adding a hundred MKIs and a lot more Tejas will be cheaper.

The smart thing to do now would be to cancel the MRCA thingy, add another production line for Tejas (or increase the capacity of the existing line, if possible), and make another few DRDO AWACS. One AWACS on the Embraer costs less than two or three Rafales! An LCA squadron with AWACS support has to be good enough for most purposes.

This was always my original point.

A DRDO Embraer AWAC cost 96 million $. This is actually cheaper than a SINGLE RAFALE

If IAF can provide an Embraer AWAC for every squadron of LCA then just imagine how powerful it will be. A LOT cheaper than a squadron of Rafale and probably more powerful. The best part is it will be 100% Indian.

With an sufficiently large order book, we can even consider setting up a production line for Embraer ERJ 145 Aircrafts.

Su 30 MKI is now almost entirely built in India. Only the metals come from Russia, and that is only because they keep insisting that we buy it form them. They have NO Leverage over us regarding Su 30 MKI. No Veto power and they certainly cannot hold us hostage.

Actually US has more of a chance of holding us hostage with their 404 / 414 engine for LCA.

 

[Tshering22]

This was always my original point.

A DRDO Embraer AWAC cost 96 million $. This is actually cheaper than a SINGLE RAFALE

If IAF can provide an Embraer AWAC for every squadron of LCA then just imagine how powerful it will be. A LOT cheaper than a squadron of Rafale and probably more powerful. The best part is it will be 100% Indian.

With an sufficiently large order book, we can even consider setting up a production line for Embraer ERJ 145 Aircrafts.

Su 30 MKI is now almost entirely built in India. Only the metals come from Russia, and that is only because they keep insisting that we buy it form them. They have NO Leverage over us regarding Su 30 MKI. No Veto power and they certainly cannot hold us hostage.

Actually US has more of a chance of holding us hostage with their 404 / 414 engine for LCA.

Are you sure about the buying metals part from Russia? Russians anyway have a share of revenues for every MKI made in India under license agreements. Why would they insist on buying that particular aircraft material? In worse case scenarios, can we make it in house?

 

[SamantK]

This Rafale deal needs to be scrapped, the issues are too big to cross over the reasons are both an absolute ripoff and unnecessary delays and cost in negotiations.

Good no of LCA mk 1 and vigorous schedule of MK2 should be enough.

 

[masud]

go for more su-30 mki with more advance rader and missile...............

 

[CONNAN]

Are you sure about the buying metals part from Russia? Russians anyway have a share of revenues for every MKI made in India under license agreements. Why would they insist on buying that particular aircraft material? In worse case scenarios, can we make it in house?

This was always my original point.

A DRDO Embraer AWAC cost 96 million $. This is actually cheaper than a SINGLE RAFALE

If IAF can provide an Embraer AWAC for every squadron of LCA then just imagine how powerful it will be. A LOT cheaper than a squadron of Rafale and probably more powerful. The best part is it will be 100% Indian.

With an sufficiently large order book, we can even consider setting up a production line for Embraer ERJ 145 Aircrafts.

Su 30 MKI is now almost entirely built in India. Only the metals come from Russia, and that is only because they keep insisting that we buy it form them. They have NO Leverage over us regarding Su 30 MKI. No Veto power and they certainly cannot hold us hostage.

Actually US has more of a chance of holding us hostage with their 404 / 414 engine for LCA.

Currently HAL is in Phase IV of assembly, which means it is manufacturing parts from the raw material stage with complete transfer of technology from Irkut Corporation,” it says. “The Su-30MKI program is a shining example of India-Russia defence cooperation

Irkut to conclude shipment of Su-30MKI kits to India - 2/16/2015 - Flight Global

 

[possumlot]

Are you sure about the buying metals part from Russia? Russians anyway have a share of revenues for every MKI made in India under license agreements. Why would they insist on buying that particular aircraft material? In worse case scenarios, can we make it in house?

Pretty sure,

​Irkut to conclude shipment of Su-30MKI kits to India - 2/16/2015 - Flight Global

“Currently HAL is in Phase IV of assembly, which means it is manufacturing parts from the raw material stage with complete transfer of technology from Irkut Corporation,”

We will continue to pay Royalty which is Fair, but it gives them no leverage.

Super Alloy for making Aero-Engine is not an easy science. Neither is making Titanium alloy. India has started making Titanium alloy but we still lag behind in making super allow with rare earth metals, most of which come from China