Rafale Out of MRCA Consequences FOR PAF

[BaburCM]

There's no need of TOT, Neither Pakistan can handle such advanced tech. nor France would be willing to give it. That's not the end of the world for Rafale. Kuwait, Switzerland and Libya are interested in Rafale. Rafale is also being touted to replace the UAE AF Mirage 2000s.
So there won't be any urgency.

It remains to be seen whether Kuwait, Switzerland, UAE etc. will really be going for the Rafale. It has been turned down so many times that I have lost the count. The prospects don't look bright for Rafale. Rafale will always feel the heat of US counterparts. Rafale will always loose out.

 

[BaburCM]

Keep in mind that the UAE may go for Rafale, and that may bring forth new confidence in the Rafale - particularly among major Muslim countries. For example the UAE would be seen as a major operator, and Pakistan has close geo-political proximity with the UAE. The two countries can facilitate a joint-order for the Rafale, and perhaps cut a pretty attractive deal given the problems Dassault is having. Also bear in mind that in logistical terms, PAF can achieve a fair degree of commonality between Rafale and JF-17 by using M-88 ECO turbofan, same line of avionics, ECM/EW, weapon-systems, HMDS, etc.

The Rafale can play a very solid role in the maritime department.

This is something I very much agree with you. If the Rafale deal opens the door for the integration of such an advanced engine and avionics into JF-17 we have a winner. No doubt about it! The deal will most certainly bear fruits as the home grown JF-17 project will also benefit from the Rafale deal. Such a deal makes perfect sense because it offers bang for the buck that PAF is always looking for.

 

[Quwa]

This is something a very much agree with you. If the Rafale deal opens the door for the integration of such an engine and avionics into JF-17 we have a winner. No doubt about it!

If the PAF ordered Rafale, it can push the French to start developing customized systems - particularly radar, avionics & ECM/EW - specifically suited for JF-17. Thales is already involved with the Gripen NG's AESA demonstrator, PAF can push them to develop an AESA radar suitable for JF-17 & PAF's requirements. MBDA can also help Pakistan develop new-generation BVR and WVR AAMs for use on its fighters. Wouldn't mind tips from the MBDA Storm Shadow and Sagem AASM tech either.

 

[BaburCM]

If the PAF ordered Rafale, it can push the French to start developing customized systems - particularly radar, avionics & ECM/EW - specifically suited for JF-17. Thales is already involved with the Gripen NG's AESA demonstrator, PAF can push them to develop an AESA radar suitable for JF-17 & PAF's requirements. MBDA can also help Pakistan develop new-generation BVR and WVR AAMs for use on its fighters. Wouldn't mind tips from the MBDA Storm Shadow and Sagem AASM tech either.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. The costly Rafale deal will have to include something extra. Such long term beneficial JVs are exactly what will make the Rafale deal worth every penny. It will have an added benefit. The Rafale deal itself without any added benefits wouldn't be worth it. At such a hefty price tag one can and should have more expectations. I consider it as my return of investment.

 

[Quwa]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. The costly Rafale deal will have to include something extra. Such long term beneficial JVs are exactly what will make the Rafale deal worth every penny. It will have an added benefit. The Rafale deal itself without any added benefits wouldn't be worth it. At such a hefty price tag one can and should have more expectations.

Agreed, on its own I wouldn't go for it either...however potential JV in terms of drastically improving JF-17, I'd drop F-16 any day.

 

[PAFAce]

What you guys are assuming is the best case scenario. The French, desparate to get Rafale out into the market, offer to help Pakistan with technology because Pakistan may somehow help pursuade UAE to replace their Mirage-2000s with Rafales. I would like nothing better than this scenario, but the reality is quite different.

The reality is, the UAE has just expressed interest in the Rafale, whereas India seriously considered it for a while. Also, the UAE needs to replace 70 Mirage-2000s, whereas India was willing to procure double that amount, 120+ planes. My point being, if the French did not give the Indians a "sweet deal", how can we expect one for less than half the planes and even more strings (JF-17 upgrades etc.) Believe me, I would like nothing better than to have the Rafale in the PAF arsenal along with French tech on the JF-17, but these are just fantasies for now. The only realistic benefit of Pakistan getting involved in the UAE-Rafale deal is the availability of 70 second-hand Mirage-2000s, ideal for replacing the Mirage IIIs and Vs, more than sufficient for any maritime and air support roles and far more cost effective in the short term.

 

[Energon]

I would actually wait for a more elaborate and appropriate information release prior to deriving any conclusions. Competitions for big ticket item sales make for a very, very dirty business, and false press releases to induce market shock among speculators has been an age old trick when engaging in said dirty business. This is all the more prevalent when dealing with developing countries where information flows are highly aberrant, and it really isn't all that difficult to bribe an "official" to leak a faulty statement. There is an extremely strong precedent among both the vendors and the client (India) when it comes to such dubious acts.

The article mentions "a spokesman" who declared that the "Rafale did not meet the usual requirement." I find this a bit puzzling considering that a strong set of criteria had to be met in order to even participate in the bidding competition (which the Rafale obviously did). The next diagnostic quantifier would be field trials, which haven't been conducted yet. How does one suddenly identify shortages in the "usual requirements" without having conducted trials, particularly on a product with very little exposure like the Rafale?

This is of course pure speculation on my behalf since I'm not privy to any direct information; there are however numerous incongruities in what appear to be rather rudimentary matters to endorse a conviction at this moment.

However if this information were in fact proven to be true, then its a bit baffling. Why has Rafale been consistently losing out on bid after bid when its predecessor the Mirage 2000 (albeit a radically different aircraft) was such a resounding success with all it's users? The sales folks at Dassault (they all hire seasoned middlemen anyways) aren't exactly slouches, and I find it rather difficult to believe that EADS et. al have had total success in outmaneuvering them each and every time. Could there really be something deficient with this aircraft? Nobody other than the French use it, so it's difficult to really get objective critical views.

 

[BaburCM]

@PAFAce I'm sure the French wouldn't be crazy to drop the supply of engines, avionics etc. for 100+ fighters. That in itself is a sweet deal apart from the Rafale deal. Combine the two and you have a very reasonable and lucrative deal. Additionally, PAFs close relations with UAE air force for the convincing factor will be another significant plus. It would be a win-win for all sides. After so many let downs the French would be crazy to let this one slip out of their hands.

 

[Keysersoze]

From what i understand it was France's insistence on adding other things to the deal. They are used to screwing clients that they forgot that there is a lot more open market out there.

 

[BaburCM]

From what i understand it was France's insistence on adding other things to the deal. They are used to screwing clients that they forgot that there is a lot more open market out there.

Well, to be frank, the world has evolved and there are better and cheaper alternatives out there. Also, the world is now moving onto 5th gen aircraft. The French are still stuck with their Rafale. Sour grapes if you ask me....

 

[Squallmao]

Poor Rafale....nobody wants it except french themselves.

 

[Super Falcon]

i think paf should not buy rafale if they have money to buy rafale than thery buy eurofighter it is best than rafale any way but i think paf should fullfill first its jf 17 we are struggling to get them in fast after 2005 we have 8 of them and remember J 10 order still have to be signed after J 10 if paf is really serious to buy than gripen will be good choice

 

[mean_bird]

If the PAF ordered Rafale, it can push the French to start developing customized systems - particularly radar, avionics & ECM/EW - specifically suited for JF-17. Thales is already involved with the Gripen NG's AESA demonstrator, PAF can push them to develop an AESA radar suitable for JF-17 & PAF's requirements. MBDA can also help Pakistan develop new-generation BVR and WVR AAMs for use on its fighters. Wouldn't mind tips from the MBDA Storm Shadow and Sagem AASM tech either.

Can you imagine the unit cost of JF-17 with those french systems you have mentioned? and that too for a nation that is getting the cheaper chinese ones with a loan?

We seriously need to improve our economy if we want to get anything half decent because at the end, its a money game...you pay the cash , you get all the goodies you want.

For the time being, I think we will stick to chinese planes and no EF or Rafale in the near future.

 

[fatman17]

at a USD 1 bill price tag / sqdn, the rafale is too expensive, but it certaily opens a window of opportunity to get the upgrades for the JF-17 along with the BVR. but lets wait and see as the french are vely vely slippery!

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Pakistan should not worry to purchase Rafale. Let first indian's to decide. We should stick just to FC-20 and JF-17. We need to worry about better radar-avonics, BVR missels. Although AIM-120C are on order but still not in Pakistan. Pakistan also should buy MICA, R-Darter and in visual range missels IRIS-T and A-darter. This will bring wide variety for PAF. Because MICA has two roles (MICA-EM: Inertial guidance Active radar homing) & (MICA-IR: Imaging Infrared homing).