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Rafale deal: Modi's Parisian blunder

Before that answer my question that is Mig-21 a medium role plane? We did try to upgrade the platform for the migs but with the super time delay and doubling of cost it was pragmatic to review our options.

For me the new option set by parricar was perfect. And no, we. Iit iim guys can be parricker bhakts coz he's our alumni but not Modi bhakts. That's left to hindutva guys. But I consider this as a master piece by Modi given the desperate situation we are in thanks to your Ak Antony.

Today we are going for an indigenous immediately available option in Tejas which is of same platform as of mig. That's to fulfil the immediate need for certain migs which can be fatal. Hope you are here already that lives of pilots is more important. That's 4-6 squadron. Rest will be replaced by another 36 Rafales. The remaining will be replaced by FGFA over period of time.

Don't you think we have succeeded in fulfilling all our pockets? We have our own plane+ a superior European plane to Chinese threat on immediate basis+a fifth gen plane in next decade.

Keep your anti Modi attitude aside for a sec and think in national perspective. Think with air force point of view. You will find this as perfect strategy by pariicker given the situation we are in.

I have pointed it out before. Mig 21 is not medium plane but it will be the 1st to go since it's old. Until the LCA is inducted in large numbers there will be a medium heavy force with the Rafales since bisons are older. It is not by design but by chance that that mix will come through.
All these exotic theories that are coming through are just blurring the facts. Fact is that a single large deal needed to be finalized- could have been Rafale or EFT or Mig 35 or anything. As I indicated if 'cost' is the concern that the F 18 production lines are still running well, given us both cost and quick turnaorunds. Now we have the most expensive jet with the most most expensive price tag lagged on to us for the simple fact that Modi wanted to give a deal for the summit. You can retrofit a logic to it, but there ain't any. If Price was the concern then why didn't they just go for Mig 35 or F 18 in flyway condition? Both of them are cheaper and are operating good production lines. Why Rafale- the most expensive of all options?
 
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In fairness, France didn't get everything they wanted. I'm sure they would have liked to sell 126 Rafales, all made in France, with no ToT.

In seriousness though, I hope this debacle presses home the urgency for the need to be independent of foreign suppliers with regards to making major weapons systems. Otherwise, Russian, European and US arms suppliers will keep taking India for a ride whenever they look to procure advanced weaponry because they know India will eventually cave because India have no choices domestically and know other foreign suppliers will ride India just as hard.

If India don't invest the money they saved, from the reduced Rafale order, to develop their own domestic military industry and R&D, then India will not have learned a thing from this farce. Inevitably, going alone is harder and much slower but it makes you infinitely stronger in the long run, when you have a genuine domestic defense industry, and not the one India pretends it has at the moment, with expensively assembled foreign parts going into 'indigenous' weapons platforms.

Believe it or not, I do believe a stronger India is better for the World as it can keep the 3 great powers in check. But India is far from being a great power when it has no capacity to arm themselves, and that's the cold hard truth for Indians at the moment.
 
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I have pointed it out before. Mig 21 is not medium plane but it will be the 1st to go since it's old. Until the LCA is inducted in large numbers there will be a medium heavy force with the Rafales since bisons are older. It is not by design but by chance that that mix will come through.
All these exotic theories that are coming through are just blurring the facts. Fact is that a single large deal needed to be finalized- could have been Rafale or EFT or Mig 35 or anything. As I indicated if 'cost' is the concern that the F 18 production lines are still running well, given us both cost and quick turnaorunds. Now we have the most expensive jet with the most most expensive price tag lagged on to us for the simple fact that Modi wanted to give a deal for the summit. You can retrofit a logic to it, but there ain't any. If Price was the concern then why didn't they just go for Mig 35 or F 18 in flyway condition? Both of them are cheaper and are operating good production lines. Why Rafale- the most expensive of all options?
Answer to you monotonic post is this. It's always good to put eggs in different basket if you ain't getting anything substantial from being a single platform player. After the cost escalation it was best to invest same money in 5th gen planes. Don't fuget 126 planes itself will take 7-8 years. Hence it wud be logical to fulfil requirements by Tejas and Rafales and for rest we will focus on FGFA.
 
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Answer to you monotonic post is this. It's always good to put eggs in different basket if you ain't getting anything substantial from being a single platform player. After the cost escalation it was best to invest same money in 5th gen planes. Don't fuget 126 planes itself will take 7-8 years. Hence it wud be logical to fulfil requirements by Tejas and Rafales and for rest we will focus on FGFA.

That logic has been put to rest. Su 30 MKI proves that a very carefully selected single platform well customized can provide for the entire class. And make in India with tech/offets was a real possibility. Hell we got that in deals much much smaller (Agusta Westland), this would have been a complete bonanza for our economy.
 
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I saw Ajai Shukla's name at the top and thought about reading no further but out of curtesy to you @Guynextdoor2 I did and I wish I hadn't bothered. This is all just mindless speculation with little (actually no) supporting evidence.

When the govt-govt talks are STILL underway and will be for the next 2-3 months you can't rule one way or another on the benefits of this deal. As the DM has pointed out

a) the deal for 36 is not even signed, that is subject to agreeing favourable terms with the French
b) more Rafales will be on the table and may be made in India IF the French agree to certain Indian demands



And this whole crony capitalism charge against Modi is moot, I read somewhere recently that Reliance's market capitalisation is actually down since Modi took office and that Ambani hasn't been at all favoured by the new GoI.


Let's just wait and see, but I am not prepared to take any analysis from hacks like Mr Shukla seriously, he was always going to bad mouth any deal that didn't go to his masters Lockhead Martin or, more recently, the Eurofighter Consortium.


Agree on everything else sir but have to call spade a spade mudi is a crony capitalist - a downright slave of ambanis and adani, please open your eyes and see

OilMin initiates collection of $195 mn penalty imposed on Reliance Industries | The Financial Express
 
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France stood their ground, knew exactly what they wanted and looked strong. The Indians gave into the pressure and now throw money at France.

The French must be laughing behind their teeth at India and thinking "India thinks she is a future superpower? Haha! She is weak, and buckled to our pressure".

The international community watched keenly to see if India could force France to beg and scrape at India's feet and give India full TOT and production in India. But now we all know India is weak, and India comes begging to France and gives France billions for production in France.

Poor India
 
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This better be false.

It is more prudent to make Dassault reduce price rather than getting emaciated ToT at higher price.

Either full ToT , or bare minimum price. Not like 1/2 of ToT which we were getting via MMRCA.

It the LAW dude. Nobody can do anything about it.

By LAW, any foreign purchase above 300 Crores has 30% mandatory Offset attached to it. IF Rafale does not reduce price, the deal itself will not happen.

Since its G2G, the aircrafts has to be sold at the same price it was offered to the French govt. (at least in theory)
 
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France stood their ground, knew exactly what they wanted and looked strong. The Indians gave into the pressure and now throw money at France.

The French must be laughing behind their teeth at India and thinking "India thinks she is a future superpower? Haha! She is weak, and buckled to our pressure".

The international community watched keenly to see if India could force France to beg and scrape at India's feet and give India full TOT and production in India. But now we all know India is weak, and India comes begging to France and gives France billions for production in France.

Poor India
How do you feel when you attempt to write 100 lines to go in waste. Poor 50 cent guys.
 
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France stood their ground, knew exactly what they wanted and looked strong. The Indians gave into the pressure and now throw money at France.

The French must be laughing behind their teeth at India and thinking "India thinks she is a future superpower? Haha! She is weak, and buckled to our pressure".

The international community watched keenly to see if India could force France to beg and scrape at India's feet and give India full TOT and production in India. But now we all know India is weak, and India comes begging to France and gives France billions for production in France.

Poor India


so "Make in India" = Made in France + Nake in India? :rofl:
 
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I have pointed it out before. Mig 21 is not medium plane but it will be the 1st to go since it's old. Until the LCA is inducted in large numbers there will be a medium heavy force with the Rafales since bisons are older. It is not by design but by chance that that mix will come through.
All these exotic theories that are coming through are just blurring the facts. Fact is that a single large deal needed to be finalized- could have been Rafale or EFT or Mig 35 or anything. As I indicated if 'cost' is the concern that the F 18 production lines are still running well, given us both cost and quick turnaorunds. Now we have the most expensive jet with the most most expensive price tag lagged on to us for the simple fact that Modi wanted to give a deal for the summit. You can retrofit a logic to it, but there ain't any. If Price was the concern then why didn't they just go for Mig 35 or F 18 in flyway condition? Both of them are cheaper and are operating good production lines. Why Rafale- the most expensive of all options?

We have an urgency here, another fighter jet, another series of fresh negotiations, again a set of new challenges, more delays, a new set of controversies.......no thank you, just get done with a small order for immediate needs and move on to better options. We have Tejas MK-2, FGFA and a medium weight AMCA to finish with the saved money. For the ToT of the things that we need, we can always buy that separately from multiple sources at a fraction of the cost.
 
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We cannot afford that 30bil price-tag,why are we buying 36 doesn't make any sense should have scrapped the whole thing and go for either domestic options or american ones since TOT turns out is another joke.
Americans would have given fighters in shorter time and it would have been better for us strategically .

I also hope that 36 jet deal doesn't go through scrap the whole damm thing.If french aren't willing to concede why should we ,modi sounded like he was begging for jets "critical operational needs" my arse.
 
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We cannot afford that 30bil price-tag,why are we buying 36 doesn't make any sense should have scrapped the whole thing and go for either domestic options or american ones since TOT turns out is another joke.
Americans would have given fighters in shorter time and it would have been better for us strategically .

I also hope that 36 jet deal doesn't go through scrap the whole damm thing.If french aren't willing to concede why should we ,modi sounded like he was begging for jets "critical operational needs" my arse.

We need a good Aircraft for A2G role and Rafale is the best and the cheapest of the two selected.

ToT was always a joke, but our requirement is not. There is an urgent need to replace the Mig 27 and Jaguars.

This is the best out of a bad situation and we are trying to make it work. As long as we do not build our own jets, we will always be out begging. Be it Russia, US or France.
 
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Details of the lame duck deal emerge. It's not 120 more jets but 18 more. And yes, Modi gave in to pressure to make the summit look good, screwed our military needs and splurged 6 Billion. @Abingdonboy @Bang Galore @Rain Man @SarthakGanguly ....there ain't no honey pot at the end of this rainbow.

Rafale deal: Modi's Parisian blunder - Rediff.com India News

The French have been rewarded for their obstinacy with exactly what they wanted -- an order for fully built Rafales without technology transfer, says Ajai Shukla.

'Make in India' has a nice patriotic air to it, especially when Prime Minister Narendra Modi tells an international audience at the Aero India 2015 show in Bengaluru that 'India will emerge as a major global centre for the defence industry,' with aerospace the sun that lights this new dawn.
Successive Congress-led and Bharatiya Janata Party-led governments have looked to $10 billion worth of offsets arising from India's tender for 126 Rafale fighters to galvanise India's aerospace ecosystem.
Indian negotiators had made it clear to Dassault that it must lower prices and increase indigenisation to win that tender.
Yet it is now clear this is not to be.
With Dassault reeling on the ropes, Modi last week scuppered the negotiations by presenting France with an order for 36 Rafale fighters.
His apparent wish for a successful summit drove three weeks of frenetic New Delhi-Paris talks that handed a delighted Dassault an unexpected knockout victory. (this is the truth @Bang Galore )
Essentially, Dassault has dragged out negotiations until New Delhi's need increased, and the wish to seem strong on defence converged with the desire to make a diplomatic splash in Paris.
At that point the French were rewarded for their obstinacy with exactly what they wanted -- an order for fully built aircraft without the need to transfer technology.

Says a keen observer of Indian defence procurement: "All vendors are now clear that ignoring India's demands long enough ends in a reward that makes all Christmases come at once. This doesn't bode well for New Delhi in that next negotiation on whatever."
Effectively, New Delhi, Paris and the Indian Air Force agreed that a bird in the hand was worth two in the bush.
Inking a government-to-government agreement to bypass the deadlocked negotiations for 126 Rafales, the IAF would get 36 fully built Rafales and, inevitably, buy 18 more as 'options', settling for three Rafale squadrons instead of the six squadrons of medium multi-role combat aircraft earlier visualised.
Done away with was the tiresome prospect of building 108 of those 126 fighters in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

Instead, New Delhi followed the Mirage 2000 model of the 1980s, when an initial purchase of two squadrons in 1983 was followed up with a few more aircraft to make up a third squadron.
The Mirage 2000 was never built in India, just as the Rafale will never be.
After three days of silence, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Monday, April 13, said the tender for 126 fighters was dead, and procurement would continue on the government-to-government route alone.
His ministry tweeted: 'G-2-G route (is) better than the (open tender) path for acquisition of strategic platforms.'
It is unclear whether this puzzling statement means that Indian defence procurement would henceforth follow only the G-2-G route; or whether he means that his ministry retains the discretion to arbitrarily scrap a tender at any time and follow a different path.
For the spurned aircraft vendors, who had each spent an estimated $50 million on the tender processes and trials, this is an important question.
In any case, the figures had already made clear that further purchases were a pipedream.
Each of the 36 Rafales now requested would cost some $150 million to $180 million along with its basic armaments and payload.
Even if we accept the bare-bones figure of $125 million that government spin-doctors will put out, 36 Rafales would cost $4.5 billion and 54 Rafales $6.75 billion. Paid out over seven years, that would add Rs 4,000 to Rs 6,000 crore (Rs 40 billion to Rs 60 billion) annually to the IAF capital budget, which already accounts for a third of all modernisation funds (Rs 31,818 crore (Rs 318.18 billion) out of Rs 94,583 crore (Rs 945.83 billion) in 2015-2016).
With this already a stretch, where is the scope for another $18 billion to $20 billion contract for 126 more Rafales, which would add another Rs 15,000 crore (Rs 150 billion) to the IAF's annual procurement budget.
To divert attention from this the government insinuates Paris was pressured into selling 36 Rafales at a (so far, inexplicably, secret) price that is cheaper than the one being negotiated in Delhi.
This is laughable. Even a defence novice knows that buying off-the-shelf is inherently cheaper; since the vendor is no longer required to supply proprietary technology or intellectual property, and is spared the risk, effort and expense of establishing production abroad and standing guarantee for products built there.
New Delhi has spared Dassault all this, ensuring in the process that Indian defence industry (especially HAL) derives no technology benefit from buying the Rafale.
The IAF will remain dependent on Dassault for maintenance and spares and, two decades hence, when the Rafale needs to be modernised, India will pay more for the upgrades than it paid for the Rafale itself -- just as the IAF is currently doing for upgrading the Mirage 2000.
To justify handing out billions to a French company that is struggling to survive, rather than directing the money towards India's fledgling aerospace industry, the government has deployed the tired bogey of national security, citing 'the critical operational necessity of fighter jets in India.'
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had declared that these 36 Rafales would enter the IAF service within two years.

Apparently, the government has a two-year threat assessment that requires two squadrons of Rafales so urgently that we must abandon a decade-long (and widely praised) selection process right at the point of culmination.
What remains unclear is how Parrikar imagines these 36 Rafales would be delivered to the IAF within two years. Currently, Dassault is building barely one Rafale every month for its sole customer, the Armee de l'Air, as France calls its air force.

Ramping up fighter production requires a lead time of at least 18 months, during which Dassault's sub-vendors -- Thales, Safran and some 500 sub-contractors -- would ramp up production of engines, avionics, etc, to meet India's demand (and Egypt's contract for 24 aircraft, when signed).
Only after this supply chain cranks into higher gear will the Rafale roll off the lines faster.
Given France's desperation to export the Rafale, it is entirely possible that the Armee de l'Air suspends its own requirements and diverts Dassault's entire production to India (and Egypt). Even so, it would be a manufacturing miracle if the IAF receives its 36 Rafales in less than four years.
On August 8, 2014, then defence minister, Arun Jaitley told Parliament that Dassault would take three to four years to deliver 18 Rafales in flyaway condition.
Parrikar inexplicably promises twice that number in half the time.
Another troublesome question hanging over this handsome present to Dassault is: Once Mr Modi decided to bypass the deadlocked August 2007 tender, why was Dassault awarded a 'single-vendor' contract?
The Eurofighter Typhoon had met every IAF requirement in its evaluation trials.
At the very least, the Eurofighter should have been invited to submit a parallel bid for 36 Typhoons in flyaway condition.
Apart from the possibility of getting the Typhoon cheaper and more quickly than the Rafale, introducing competition into the bidding -- as the defence procurement procedure explicitly recognises -- would almost certainly have driven Rafale's bid lower.
Like in all defence deals, the market place is abuzz with speculation.
Anil Ambani, who attended Modi's meeting with defence chief executives in Paris, reportedly held a long discussion with Dassault chief Eric Trappier. With the procurement of 36 Rafales not bound to HAL as the tender for 126 fighters was, how are new players positioning themselves to benefit from New Delhi's turnaround?
The coming days will tell.

(his crony capitalist friends will get a share of the $ 6 Billion Bonanaza. So 'cost' is no longer a real concern.)
Problem with you guys is that you are unrealistic and never give credit to some one called Modi when its due.

Talking about OP which I never expect as he is Kongressi stooge since inception but I expect some sane people to understand what am posting today .Here my rebuttal:
1>Who is the writer of this article ? Ajay Shukla,Now what wrong with this guy? Well he the first one who cried from top of the roof that Scrap the MMRCA: buy US F-35s(Broadsword: Scrap the MMRCA: buy US F-35s Now does he have any credibility,when is blame Modi Govt. who actually bought Rafale (Original Winner of MMRCA) ? Ans is Absolutely No Because he is a Pressitute and always love Lockheed Martin.
2> The French have been rewarded for their obstinacy with exactly what they wanted -- an order for fully built Rafales without technology transfer, says Ajai Shukla. Now My Point is- HAL is making Su 30MKI, what they learned with so much of TOT ?Ans Is Nothing-These Foolhardy HAL babus can't even dvelop a nose cone of Tejas even after assembling Mig 21,Jaguar,Su 30mki with TOT.Now A nose cone of aircraft has to be made off either Kevlar or Aluminium alloy but not composite because it disrupts the Wavelength of Emission and absorbs the EM waves. So for the love of the god they not going to learn anything from as sophisticated as Rafale.
3> Talking about the Cost of Rafale, which is =Approx 150million $ along with support ,spares and weaponry. Now Talking about New Su-30MKI’s delivered by HAL are estimated to cost $60-75 million each. However here comes the twist Presently the total technical life of an Su-30MKI is 6,000h/25 years, and time between overhaul for its NPO Saturn AL31FP engines is 1,000h, with a total technical life of 2,000h. While For M88-2 of Rafale -the Total Techincal life is 6000hrs and overhaul cycle is 2500hrs-3000hrs. Do your maths,what is total cost of Su 30mki which is a 4+ trance aircraft while Rafale is 4+++ ? Source below ( ANALYSIS: India's fighters battle for relevance - 2/9/2015 - Flight Global
Request Rejected )

4>Another gem right from his a$$- At the very least, the Eurofighter should have been invited to submit a parallel bid for 36 Typhoons in flyaway condition.- Ajay Shukla Said. Now Mr shukla- Only crazy and maniac will order Typhoon,we bleed from our nose even when we deal with single friendly country and you talking about Eurofighter made by four nation who never miss a chance to criticise and poke nose in Indian internal matter.Not to mention,they blocked Indian armed police from acquiring pistols citing poor human right records. Gunned Down : NATION, News - India Today
Here Mr Shukla advocating to get Typhoon,Well.

5> Now in economic point of view are we a rich country ? Ans is Yes but we have lot of rampant poverty and unemployed too to take care.We don't enjoy luxury to buy or even manufacture plane like rafale,which will cost a bomb to Indian airforce in later years thanks to HAL babus whose productivity is 2.7:1 when compare dassault babus. Am sure Modi govt must have done good calculation that's why they decided to cancel this shitty MMRCA and emphasizes more on LCA while also give a breathing space by very much possibility ordering 2 more squadrons of Rafale and arrest the falling SQN nos within 4 years.Can you Imagine this with HAL which yet to establish a production unit or even acquired land for it.
Mind you 72 Rafale will be reckoning,while LCA tejas will be cheap and effective alternatives in huge numbers.

@Abingdonboy Did I miss anything else
 
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Problem with you guys is that you are unrealistic and never give credit to some one called Modi when its due.

Talking about OP which I never expect as he is Kongressi stooge since inception but I expect some sane people to understand what am posting today .Here my rebuttal:
1>Who is the writer of this article ? Ajay Shukla,Now what wrong with this guy? Well he the first one who cried from top of the roof that Scrap the MMRCA: buy US F-35s(Broadsword: Scrap the MMRCA: buy US F-35s Now does he have any credibility,when is blame Modi Govt. who actually bought Rafale (Original Winner of MMRCA) ? Ans is Absolutely No Because he is a Pressitute and always love Lockheed Martin.
2> The French have been rewarded for their obstinacy with exactly what they wanted -- an order for fully built Rafales without technology transfer, says Ajai Shukla. Now My Point is- HAL is making Su 30MKI, what they learned with so much of TOT ?Ans Is Nothing-These Foolhardy HAL babus can't even dvelop a nose cone of Tejas even after assembling Mig 21,Jaguar,Su 30mki with TOT.Now A nose cone of aircraft has to be made off either Kevlar or Aluminium alloy but not composite because it disrupts the Wavelength of Emission and absorbs the EM waves. So for the love of the god they not going to learn anything from as sophisticated as Rafale.
3> Talking about the Cost of Rafale, which is =Approx 150million $ along with support ,spares and weaponry. Now Talking about New Su-30MKI’s delivered by HAL are estimated to cost $60-75 million each. However here comes the twist Presently the total technical life of an Su-30MKI is 6,000h/25 years, and time between overhaul for its NPO Saturn AL31FP engines is 1,000h, with a total technical life of 2,000h. While For M88-2 of Rafale -the Total Techincal life is 6000hrs and overhaul cycle is 2500hrs-3000hrs. Do your maths,what is total cost of Su 30mki which is a 4+ trance aircraft while Rafale is 4+++ ? Source below ( ANALYSIS: India's fighters battle for relevance - 2/9/2015 - Flight Global
Request Rejected )

4>Another gem right from his a$$- At the very least, the Eurofighter should have been invited to submit a parallel bid for 36 Typhoons in flyaway condition.- Ajay Shukla Said. Now Mr shukla- Only crazy and maniac will order Typhoon,we bleed from our nose even when we deal with single friendly country and you talking about Eurofighter made by four nation who never miss a chance to criticise and poke nose in Indian internal matter.Not to mention,they blocked Indian armed police from acquiring pistols citing poor human right records. Gunned Down : NATION, News - India Today
Here Mr Shukla advocating to get Typhoon,Well.

5> Now in economic point of view are we a rich country ? Ans is Yes but we have lot of rampant poverty and unemployed too to take care.We don't enjoy luxury to buy or even manufacture plane like rafale,which will cost a bomb to Indian airforce in later years thanks to HAL babus whose productivity is 2.7:1 when compare dassault babus. Am sure Modi govt must have done good calculation that's why they decided to cancel this shitty MMRCA and emphasizes more on LCA while also give a breathing space by very much possibility ordering 2 more squadrons of Rafale and arrest the falling SQN nos within 4 years.Can you Imagine this with HAL which yet to establish a production unit or even acquired land for it.
Mind you 72 Rafale will be reckoning,while LCA tejas will be cheap and effective alternatives in huge numbers.
Aweome post bro.
 
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