Questions!

[Airboss]

Airboss,

Language , Culture ,Religion are just tools invented by human being to bind the society with rules. Language is a tool to communicate with each other, English is a very new language , But still I have to use this to communicate with you. This is the best language between "us" . Why do you think which came first ? Come out of your "short mind". World moves toward a one "Global village". We can change everything if it does not suit you.

I would like to give you one small advice from Arthasasthra,
" To save your women you can give up everything you have, But to save yourself you can even give up your woman" . Many will not agree with this and say its only for kings.Let me tell you everything in the world comes around "Save yourself" only.You can and will give up everything if your life in danger.

psugumar, LOL, Chill out dude....I was not at all asking about "your philosophical view".
Go back & read the Questions again and if you do not have a concrete answer "Move on to the next thread" Makes sense, don't it!!!!!!

It's nothing to do with (Quote) "Come out with the short mind" stuff.

It's just I am trying to find a Commonality or similarity amongst us, as you guys (Indians) cliam to say. Cuz, my friend, I don't seem to find any!

Once again I reiterate, I am asking these questions on an INTELLECTUAL basis, folks. That's All!!!!!

 

[shukla_swapnil]

let me put it this way - it depends upon the prespective. Also the word used is similar and not the Same. The differences you have pointed out will defenetely not make them same but very similar.

The similarities if you mention cusines - We have lots of Mughlai dishes which is part of every Indian food joint. Butter chicken, chicken and mutton curry and rogan josh, mutton istu will be present across the border I beleive. We both eat Rotis and Naans which no-one outside the subcontinent does. Kebabs Sami kabab, Seekh kabab i could go on but am salivating.

Languages you think they are different, but i find no difficulty in understanding while watching a Pakistan news or Play (Bakra kishto pey was huge in india). Even though as you pointed out that grammer is different and so is accent, but many of the words are common to both languages. I think hindi the indians use in general has a lot of urdu words in it. Heck there are several words in Urdu whose hindi translation i might not even be able to come up with like Nazakat or himmat.

Music is similar - Pakistan has an array of sufi musicians so does India. Infact A R Rehman is also influenced by sufi music and qawwalis. If the languages were not actually similar then how come bollywood moies be popular in Pakistan and loads of Pakistani musicians be popular in India.

The similarity is higher in the daily use languages ofcourse I might have difficulties if some documents written in hardcore urdu with technical terms is read out to me. Anyways Urdu is one of the national languages of India. So there is another similarity.

We both like curries and spicy food. One more

Actually to find difference in appearance you would generally be required to nick-pick on subtle differences. Infact to emphasize my point a South indian will look much more similar to a Pakistani than to a south Indian.

Hope that helps.

 

[wtf]

Ok for starters, How is Urdu & Hindi the same Language? (They have different Vocabularies, word pronunciation & sentence structures)

2) How do we look similar? Pakistani's & Indians? (I mean racially or genetically)

Folks, I am just trying to engage in an "Intellectual Debate" as I feel there is a lot to be learn't from our histories.

Urdu and Hindi being the same language - Next to impossible to say.

Linguists (sometimes) class languages on basis of grammar. Then it makes sense to say they are the same. In terms of Vocabulary, I can understand Urdu (Hindi is my third language really) but there are certainly differences. The differences between Hindi and Urdu are certainly less than Mumbaiya (a strange mixture of a lot of languages spoken in Mumbai - considered a dialect of Hindi) and Hindi. In terms of script, totally different. But then Indonesian language is written in Latin/English script. Or in India there are a few languages which are written in multiple scripts (Tulu for example) .

Taken together, you could say they belong to the same language family for certain. Can't say they are the exact same. Indian government certainly recognizes it as a separate language and it is a subject you can take in schools etc.

About race - I personally don't believe in idea of race or racial purity. There is limited genetic evidence for it too.

Based on looks - If you come to India or if I go to Pakistan we are surely bound to look different from the general population. In fact you can't even aggregate all of India into one single "Indian look" , we have all sorts of people here - so you can easily find a place where you stand out.

But in Europe and US, I have been mistaken for both Bangladeshi and Pakistani by Bangladeshis and Pakistanis - A lot of it has more to do with dress and the way of talking. I have also mistaken Pakistanis for Arabs and I have a Bangladeshi friend who keeps getting called Chinese. From an American/Western perspective, we are all black haired, black eyed people and hence some of us are likely to be confused with Mexicans/Arabs/North Africans and even Spaniards.

 

[spsk]

psugumar, LOL, Chill out dude....I was not at all asking about "your philosophical view".
Go back & read the Questions again and if you do not have a concrete answer "Move on to the next thread" Makes sense, don't it!!!!!!

It's nothing to do with (Quote) "Come out with the short mind" stuff.

It's just I am trying to find a Commonality or similarity amongst us, as you guys (Indians) cliam to say. Cuz, my friend, I don't seem to find any!

Once again I reiterate, I am asking these questions on an INTELLECTUAL basis, folks. That's All!!!!!

No definitely not and this is not "philosophical view" too, Just remind when your were kid, how you fought with your friend "My father is rich" , Any answer to your question will definitely going to hurt some one .

Where do you think Harappa Located ? What do you have in SWAT Valley ? What do you say about Panini ?

India Share a lot of things with Pakistan and Many of our great people orriginated from present Pakistan.Thanks to Indus valley.

I feel very bad that a Pakistani tries to find out what we share in common . Come on man, May be an american can ask this question not you guys

You should be ashamed that you are a person not knowing the history of your own country!!!

 

[Omar1984]

Punjabis and Pathans look very different, they can be easily told apart from their looks, dressing, language, mannerism and food.

Muhajirs of karachi pronounce their 'urdu' exactly like ganges plains indians

Punjabis of india look exactly like punjabis of pakistan

Sindhis of india look exactly like sindhis of pakistan

its what 'color' glasses you are wearing, if u want pakistan is 1 nation or 5 nations india 1 or 27. a nation is an idea, all the 'glorified justification' comes later. yes even for india, the question is, how human, benign, beneficial is the idea.

and we did not even talk about bangladesh

Not true. Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus never really intermarried with one another for hundreds of years..even if you ask a Sikh he can always tell another Sikh. Most Punjabi Indians have different features than most Punjabi Pakistanis, it has to do with subtribes. Punjabi Pakistanis have subtribes such as Moghals, Qureshis, Syyeds, Maliks that are no way related to Indian Punjabis. Only the subgroup Jatts that are found in some places of Pakistan's Punjab look the same as Indian Punjabis. And if you think Pashtuns and Punjabis of Pakistan are totally different from one another just compare Pashtun singer Rahim Shah to Punjabi singer Ali Zafar, we look more similar to other ethnic groups of Pakistan than Indians.

Also less than 5% of India's population share ethnic similarities with Pakistanis (Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Balochis, Kashmiris, Saraikis) so to say Pakistanis and Indians are the same is crazy because 95% of India's population share no ethnic similarities with Pakistanis and 86% of India's population share no religious similarities with Pakistanis.

P.S. Punjabis make less than 3% of India's population while Punjabis make 50% of Pakistan's population we maybe similar to Punjabis of India (not the same) but we are different than the 95% plus of India's population, and almost all Punjabi Pakistanis are Muslims while Muslims in India's Punjab hardly exist so you cant even say we are similar.

 

[Nemesis]

Not true. Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus never really intermarried with one another for hundreds of years..even if you ask a Sikh he can always tell another Sikh. Most Punjabi Indians have different features than most Punjabi Pakistanis, it has to do with subtribes. Punjabi Pakistanis have subtribes such as Moghals, Qureshis, Syyeds, Maliks that are no way related to Indian Punjabis. Only the subgroup Jatts that are found in some places of Pakistan's Punjab look the same as Indian Punjabis. And if you think Pashtuns and Punjabis of Pakistan are totally different from one another just compare Pashtun singer Rahim Shah to Punjabi singer Ali Zafar, we look more similar to other ethnic groups of Pakistan than Indians.

Also less than 5% of India's population share ethnic similarities with Pakistanis (Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Balochis, Kashmiris, Saraikis) so to say Pakistanis and Indians are the same is crazy because 95% of India's population share no ethnic similarities with Pakistanis and 86% of India's population share no religious similarities with Pakistanis.

P.S. Punjabis make less than 3% of India's population while Punjabis make 50% of Pakistan's population we maybe similar to Punjabis of India (not the same) but we are different than the 95% plus of India's population, and almost all Punjabi Pakistanis are Muslims while Muslims in India's Punjab hardly exist so you cant even say we are similar.

But the question asked was whether Indians and Pakistanis look the same or not. The answer is North Indians and Pakistanis are similar looking, it's not a question of religion or tribe as you put it, it's simple genetics. We people living in South Asia are a mixture of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian ancestry.The only people in South Asia who can be considered to a have a distinct ethnic identity are Balochi, Pathan and Sindhi's.

As far as culture goes, there might be some cultural similarity between Indian and Pakistani Punjab. But there is no similarity between Pakistan and the rest of India. Cuisine wise, Mughlai food is the staple diet of North Indians, isnt it the case with Pakistan as well?

 

[Omar1984]

But the question asked was whether Indians and Pakistanis look the same or not. The answer is North Indians and Pakistanis are similar looking, it's not a question of religion or tribe as you put it, it's simple genetics. We people living in South Asia are a mixture of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian ancestry.The only people in South Asia who can be considered to a have a distinct ethnic identity are Balochi, Pathan and Sindhi's.

As far as culture goes, there might be some cultural similarity between Indian and Pakistani Punjab. But there is no similarity between Pakistan and the rest of India. Cuisine wise, Mughlai food is the staple diet of North Indians, isnt it the case with Pakistan as well?

I've visited many places in the world and I could always tell Pakistanis apart from Indians. We dont look the same. As I said before the vast majority of Indians are not Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Pashtuns, or Saraikis. Kashmir is a disputed territory so I'm not going to mention Kashmiris.

Pakistan's culture, traditions, clothings, language, literature, architecture, food is influenced by the Mughal empire (which was a Muslim empire), some Indians mix in the Mughal culture wit their culture but religion influences culture, traditions, clothings, language, literature, architecture, and food especially in South Asia.
Take for example, Pakistan's literature. If you show an Indian a Pakistani Urdu poetry book, he/she wont even know how to read it because Indians cant read the Urdu script and when you read it to them they wont even understand it and think its Farsi when its actually Urdu.

Pakistanis are their own people and Indians are their own, just because Punjab is divided between the two countries doesnt make Punjabi Pakistanis same as Indians. As I said before less than 3% of Indians are Punjabis while 50% of Pakistanis are Punjabis and almost all Punjabi Pakistanis are Muslims while Muslims in India's Punjab dont even exist. I'm Punjabi Pakistani and I can tell you there's so many subtribes in the Punjabi ethnic group and many subtribes in Pakistan's Punjab are no where to be found in India's Punjab.

Sindh is in Pakistan, the only Sindhis in India are the Hindu Sindhis who left to India after partition and they are small in number same in number as Hindu Sindhis who decided to stay in Pakistan. Sindhis make less than 1% of India's population. Pashtuns and Saraikis in India also make less than 1% of India's population. More than 95% of Indians are different from Pakistanis.

Punjabi is an ethnic group. We have our own music, language, culture, and food just like Sindhi, Pashtun, Baloch, and Saraiki are an ethnic group and each ethnic group has their own music, language, culture, and food. We are not Indians.

You can say some Pakistanis are Aryan race but no ethnic group of Pakistan are Dravadians. Most Indians are Dravadians.

 

[Nemesis]

Don't be absurd, the people of South Asia are a mixture of Aryan and Dravidian blood. This have been proved by genetics. This inter-mingling has been going on ever since the Aryan Invasion. Are you saying that the present crop of modern Pakistanis somehow missed this intermingling? Do you know how silly that sounds?

I don't doubt that culturally Indians and Pakistanis are different. Obviously that is so as no two cultures in India are similar. For example Bengali culture is different from Maharashtrian culture which is different from Punjabi culture. What i am saying is that there are cultural similarities between Pakistani Punjab and Indian Punjab. There are also similarities of cuisine in North India and Pakistan.

PS - Please note, similarities does not mean they are completely similar. Certainly there are differences .

 

[Omar1984]

^ Show me proof of this study that Pakistanis are of Dravadian blood because this is the first time I'm hearing this, and please dont give me a study done by Indians.

 

[Zob]

the answer is simple do PHILIPINOS,THAI,MALAYSIANS,KOREANS,JAPANESE look the same maybe to the world but in real big diffrences exsist.

PAKISTANIs are fair....can sometimes have coloured eyes are taller broder...jonits are bigger

 

[Zob]

Pathans are very fair and have coloured eyes then the punjabis are fair as well...sindhis are big and hard built so are the balochis.....indians mostly are not fair in colour but then in 1 billion you do have exceptions.....and usually the fair complexion people there ancestors were born in pakistan or afghanistan before sepration...

RAJ KAPOOR's parents were from peshwar, FEROZ KHAN parents were from GHAZNI....so on.....

 

[Omar1984]

the answer is simple do PHILIPINOS,THAI,MALAYSIANS,KOREANS,JAPANESE look the same maybe to the world but in real big diffrences exsist.

PAKISTANIs are fair....can sometimes have coloured eyes are taller broder...jonits are bigger

In general Pakistanis are more fairer than Indians but thats not the only difference. Indians have different features also than most Pakistanis. The ethnic groups of Pakistan look more similar with each other than Indians, also you will find many Pakistanis who look more similar to Middle Easterns than Indians. Pakistanis have lots of variety.

The point is Pakistan are their own people and Indians are their own.

 

[Omar1984]

Pathans are very fair and have coloured eyes then the punjabis are fair as well...sindhis are big and hard built so are the balochis.....indians mostly are not fair in colour but then in 1 billion you do have exceptions.....and usually the fair complexion people there ancestors were born in pakistan or afghanistan before sepration...

RAJ KAPOOR's parents were from peshwar, FEROZ KHAN parents were from GHAZNI....so on.....

Yes all the Bollywood Khans are originally from North west Pakistan or Afghanistan. Also Parsis like John Abraham are not really ethnically Indian because Parsis from South Asia all originate from Iran.

Katrina Kaif is half Kashmiri and half British.

Whose left in Bollywod? Ashwariya Rai? She looks scary without makeup

 

[Nemesis]

^ Show me proof of this study that Pakistanis are of Dravadian blood because this is the first time I'm hearing this, and please dont give me a study done by Indians.

Read -
****************
A number of earlier anthropologists held the view that the Dravidian peoples together were a distinct race. Comprehensive genetic studies have proven that this is not the case, although they do indeed reveal significant genetic differences to north-western Indian peoples. The genetic studies also indicated that the origin of the Dravidian speakers is the Indian subcontinent.[1][2][3] Recent studies of the distribution of alleles on the Y chromosome,[1] microsatellite DNA,[2] and mitochondrial DNA [3] in India have cast overwhelmingly strong doubt for a biologically identifiable "Dravidian race" distinct from non-Dravidians in the Indian subcontinent. The only distinct ethnic groups present in South Asia, according to genetic analysis, are the Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Hazara, Kalash, Pathan and Sindhi peoples, the vast majority of whom are found in todays Pakistan.[18]

The genetic views on race differ in their classification of Dravidians. According to population geneticist L.L. Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford, based on work done in the 1980s, Indians are genetically Caucasian, but Lewontin rejects the label Caucasian. Cavalli-Sforza found that Indians are about three times closer to West Europeans than to East Asians.[19] Dr. Eduardas Valaitis, in 2006, found that India is genetically closest to East and Southeast Asians with about 15% more genetic similarity than to Europeans; he also found that India could be considered very distinct from other regions.[20] Genetic anthropologist Stanley Marion Garn considered in the 1960s that the entirety of the Indian Subcontinent to be a "race" genetically distinct from other populations.[21][19] Others, such as Lynn B. Jorde and Stephen P. Wooding, claim South Indians are genetic intermediaries between Europeans and East Asians.
*****************************************

Also read Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In general Pakistanis are more fairer than Indians but thats not the only difference. Indians have different features also than most Pakistanis. The ethnic groups of Pakistan look more similar with each other than Indians, also you will find many Pakistanis who look more similar to Middle Easterns than Indians. Pakistanis have lots of variety.

On the contrary, It is India that has variety. Pakistanis are similar to North Indians. Again, related to genetics. I do see why you guys see similarities between people of the Mid-East and Pakistanis, they are a different ethnic race.

 

[Omar1984]

^ You will find Pakistanis with blue eyes and blonde hair. You will never find an Indian with blue eyes and blonde hair so its Pakistanis who come in variety. Majority of Indians are brown, while Pakistanis come in all different skin colors.

Recent studies of the distribution of alleles on the Y chromosome,[1] microsatellite DNA,[2] and mitochondrial DNA [3] in India have cast overwhelmingly strong doubt for a biologically identifiable "Dravidian race" distinct from non-Dravidians in the Indian subcontinent. The only distinct ethnic groups present in South Asia, according to genetic analysis, are the Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Hazara, Kalash, Pathan and Sindhi peoples, the vast majority of whom are found in todays Pakistan.[18]
Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The study took place in India not Pakistan. How can the study make conclusions about Pakistan when they never did studies on the Pakistani people?

Your wikipedia source does not say Pakistanis are Dravadians. It said all the ethnic groups of Pakistan (except Punjabis) are distinct meaning they are not-dravidian and doesn't mention Punjabis. Dravadians are very dark people, everyone knows Punjabis are more lighter skinned than Sindhis, generally speaking...it doesn't make sense for Punjabis to be Dravadian and not Sindhis.