Question About Jinnah

[SuvarnaTeja]

To understand the creation of Pakistan, I think it is necessary to understand 1940's India.

I know very little about 1940's India. I don't feel qualified to really have a definite viewpoint on 1940's India.

So I don't claim I understand 1940's India or creation of Pakistan.

To understand partition of India, you need to know the history of the subcontinent since 700 CE not 1940 CE.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

Congress was Nahrus Party same Nehru who didn't give Muslims the right of representation according to percentage of population in Parliament of India to be... and when Jinnah stood up for Pakistan they portrayed him as a negative person and thats why they have brainwashed indians to believe

Did Jinnah follow what he preached? He wanted representation for Muslims of India but only rich Muslims were allowed to vote to decide.

What a hypocrisy!

 

[Jackdaws]

It has gone beyond tolerance, far beyond the limits of decency.

What is particularly enraging is that the combination of the five deadly castes is now preying on the Dalit with vastly enlarged impunity, and with the all-but-celebratory encouragement of the political leadership.

We are headed to Golgotha. The Muslims and now the Dalit are prey; we tend to forget that, even before that, the tribes were the prey. Only the dominant five (taking only north India) will survive with whole skins. All the rest, tribal, Dalit or Muslim, and, at some point of time not too far away, all of us are vulnerable who don't speak Hindi as a mother tongue.

Maybe it was always like this and we were living in a romanticized bubble in certain parts of the country. I guess SoBo is still insulated but it's depressing reading about incidents all over.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Indeed brother, but I guess I do not see any benefit personally. The Indian narrative litters every crevice of the web, due mainly to the sheer mass of populations of Indians with internet access (not necessarily the etiquette on how to use it.)

After debating with Indian trolls and entertaining their games and drama, I simply have realized it is all an exercise in futility.

If a Chinese nailed club to the head cannot drive the point home, I don't think our kind and respectful manner will do it. We literally give the Indians more respect than they deserve.

About setting the narrative, the Pakistan nation has now taken the first steps, our PM is a master in narrative building, and ISPR is amplifying our physical attacks with their statements and using partnerships with world media to reveal their lies.

We must do what we can to further our narrative, and the best way is to deny the trolls the oxygen they need, which is attention.

If you notice, try ignoring them and see how they dissappear.

If all Pakistanis can stop responding to trolls who still think they are on quora, reddit, yt, fb, or twitter, we can start engaging in more fruitful discussions with fellow Pakistanis to advance the aims of our people and nation.

Thoughts? @Verve @masterchief_mirza @Musings @PAKISTANFOREVER @Dalit @TNT @PakFactor @SecularNationalist

I absolutely second you brother.
Right now most indians are like a rabid dog infected with rabies virus . The virus has already reached in their brains and hence it's the virus which is controlling them,made them unable to think and act rationally and dictating their each and every action. That virus is called hindutva and RSS ideology.
The ideology has completely taken over India and now arguing with indians is like arguing with Nazis about rights of Jewish people. Right now it's a nation doomed to fail.
We don't argue with rabid dogs we just shoot them to get them out of their misery and to protect others. The path indians have chosen there should be no doubt that we are heading towards a possible war or a proxy wars causing a lot of regional instability,so rather than arguing and talking about peace with indians we should focus on what's coming for us as one united nation. All diplomatic channels and the hopes of peace are already closed.
And yes indians are given more respect here on this forum than they deserve and the behavior of Pakistani mods on this forum regarding that is appalling. They should be treated like how brainwashed extremists and terrorists are treated.

 

[SecularNationalist]

I want to be clear that I am not attacking Jinnah- I am looking for a response to a line of thought regarding Jinnah.

As I understand it, there is a line of thought that claims Modi is a Hindu Jinnah, BJP is pushing for "Hindu Pakistan"- I think this is a line of thought that is associated with India's Congress party.

Narendra Modi is India's Hindu Jinnah, following two-nation theory: Former Assam CM Tarun Gogoi

GUWAHATI: Calling Prime Minister Narendra Modi India's "Hindu Jinnah", former Assam chief minister Tarun Gogoi on Monday accused him of following the

www.newindianexpress.com

Shashi Tharoor kicks up row with 'Hindu Pakistan' jibe

Congress, however, disapproves of his comment; BJP calls it “extraordinary” as “it is an attack on the Indian democracy and Hindus.”

www.thehindu.com

I want to be very clear that I am not endorsing that line of thought. I honestly don't know that much about Jinnah. I think we may have some Jinnahologists here who can respond to this line of thinking and I would like to know how this line of theory can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan.

Myself, I don't really know much about Jinnah so I am wondering how people who are better informed can respond to this claim. Instead of trying to articulate a response myself on the basis of a very limited knowledge, I would like to know how people who have studied Jinnah can respond to the claim.

Myself- I think many people sacrificed a lot so there can be a Pakistan, I respect the Pakistani nation and people and I respect Pakistan's right to independence. If Pakistanis woke up tomorrow and said they wanted to rejoin India, I would respect that. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon (possibly not in a 100 years, possibly not in a 1,000, possibly never- Allah knows best) and I think Pakistan has a right to independence based on the will of the Pakistani people. They have a right to self-determination and so I respect the will of the Pakistani people and I think the will of the Pakistani people has to be respected.

Modi cannot become Hindu Jinnah even after 1000 births. There is literally no comparison between the two.
Jinnah was the finest of the finest politician subcontinent had to offer. Even to this day as we speak no one can replace him in this region.
I am not saying all that because I am a pakistani just go ahead and start reading about him and you will realize about his stature. The strongest world empire of that time had to accept defeat infront of him and there was a reason why Lord mountbatten the representative of English empire had to say the following lines.
" If there is one man who controls the future of India by the palm of his hand that's MA jinaah"

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Indeed brother, but I guess I do not see any benefit personally. The Indian narrative litters every crevice of the web, due mainly to the sheer mass of populations of Indians with internet access (not necessarily the etiquette on how to use it.)

After debating with Indian trolls and entertaining their games and drama, I simply have realized it is all an exercise in futility.

If a Chinese nailed club to the head cannot drive the point home, I don't think our kind and respectful manner will do it. We literally give the Indians more respect than they deserve.

About setting the narrative, the Pakistan nation has now taken the first steps, our PM is a master in narrative building, and ISPR is amplifying our physical attacks with their statements and using partnerships with world media to reveal their lies.

We must do what we can to further our narrative, and the best way is to deny the trolls the oxygen they need, which is attention.

If you notice, try ignoring them and see how they dissappear.

If all Pakistanis can stop responding to trolls who still think they are on quora, reddit, yt, fb, or twitter, we can start engaging in more fruitful discussions with fellow Pakistanis to advance the aims of our people and nation.

Thoughts? @Verve @masterchief_mirza @Musings @PAKISTANFOREVER @Dalit @TNT @PakFactor @SecularNationalist

It's a difficult one. @peagle raises a good point - the war is a narrative war, hence it does us no good sitting back and ignoring. At the same time, ignoring their rants is an effective way of getting them to lose interest and stay quiet, and is also the solution of relative ease. There is no consistent uniform answer for each and every scenario. Sometimes ignoring is best. Sometimes, we are compelled to counter attack.

I know what I've said isn't very helpful in terms of a solution, but I have found it to be the reality.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Regarding OP, naturally, any nation would wish they had a variant of Jinnah, who literally hauled a nation kicking and screaming out of the mud of nothingness and into existence. Nobody ever imagined the Hindu mobs and the British guns could both be defied and that the bounteous realm might become a reality. Yet here we are.

To label Modi a "hindu Jinnah"? I think Hindus are quite wide of the mark. Start with the concept of hindutva, what it stands for and its track record. No further debunking is necessary really for this laughable theory.

Let others delude themselves. It's quite amusing.

 

[peagle]

Indeed brother, but I guess I do not see any benefit personally. The Indian narrative litters every crevice of the web, due mainly to the sheer mass of populations of Indians with internet access (not necessarily the etiquette on how to use it.)

After debating with Indian trolls and entertaining their games and drama, I simply have realized it is all an exercise in futility.

If a Chinese nailed club to the head cannot drive the point home, I don't think our kind and respectful manner will do it. We literally give the Indians more respect than they deserve.

About setting the narrative, the Pakistan nation has now taken the first steps, our PM is a master in narrative building, and ISPR is amplifying our physical attacks with their statements and using partnerships with world media to reveal their lies.

We must do what we can to further our narrative, and the best way is to deny the trolls the oxygen they need, which is attention.

If you notice, try ignoring them and see how they dissappear.

If all Pakistanis can stop responding to trolls who still think they are on quora, reddit, yt, fb, or twitter, we can start engaging in more fruitful discussions with fellow Pakistanis to advance the aims of our people and nation.

Thoughts? @Verve @masterchief_mirza @Musings @PAKISTANFOREVER @Dalit @TNT @PakFactor @SecularNationalist

Brother, in how you describe trolls, then the people I not only call, but consider as my brothers and sisters, in real life, Indians, are all trolls. What we fail to understand and perhaps become despondent by is, that it is their mind-set to hate Pakistan, no matter which party or religious background they are from. Obviously I am referring to the majority, but the vast majority.

I do not reply purely for my satisfaction or theirs, but unless you speak, at least sometimes, and admit that it is ok to speak, then despondency sets in, here, I can sense among many it has. Jews were killed, murdered and persecuted by the Europeans for centuries, now they are a controlling elite, that did not happen by them allowing the much larger, much more powerful Europeans to own the narrative.

So have your arguments ready, but we are very poor at preparing our arguments, because any discussion is seen as a argument in the negative sense, not as an exercise to explore. So, have your arguments ready, reply where needed, not each and all, but carry on, because we are Pakistanis . The world has been against us since independence (there are too many examples to ignore) and not done us harm, they cannot do anything now, but it does not mean, we allow them to own any space, this space.

But I've seen you reply still, lol, the fire is still alive , as much you try to hide it lol

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Did Jinnah follow what he preached? He wanted representation for Muslims of India but only rich Muslims were allowed to vote to decide.

What a hypocrisy!

Lolx Jinnah did follow what he preached and no you are wrong Rich Muslims and not so rich Muslims all were part of Muslim League...

And whats the proof of your claim ? Rich Muslims were not the ones deciding it was Muslim League which had all kind of people in leadership...

And indians talking here about hypocrisy oh my days

 

[peagle]

I think we have killed alot many in the name of blasphemy.

The best way to mend yourself is to accept your mistakes. I think we Pakistanis are brave enough to accept ours.

That I agree with you

True and we Muslims were part of that. Just for instance when Lahore was in its 12 gates and one 'mori , the Mughals created a separate town of Mughalpura, which was more developed just like todays DHA

There are so many inaccuracies in your statements, I honestly do not know where to start. The only thing makes this situation better is, because you are a Pakistani, I have to assume it is because of being unaware, rather then malicious reasoning. So, I will keep it short rather then enlarging the discussion.

You "think" we killed, I think if you make such strong claims you should "know". You are aware of the general perception, but not the reality. The number of people killed in blasphemy related issues is very small indeed, it is mostly the court cases that are an issue, and most people are proven innocent, because the legal system is slow, they just get dragged on. No murder or persecution, it is not "state" backed, nor is it backed by any organisations, as in India. And, most and I mean large majority of anti-blasphemy cases are against Muslims, not minorities. But that is not the point, the point was against the minority groups. you are wide off the mark.

India has had hundreds and thousands of riots and killings. As you are aware of Gujarat riots, I'll tell you about another Gujarat riot in 1969, where nearly 700 Muslims also were killed, officially, unofficially around 2 thousand, that was at the height of secular India, please don't make grand claims on such topics, the minorities in Pakistan are far better treated then in India.

We do nothing but accept out mistakes, you are a prime example, and I know so many like you, who are readily willing to put the blame on our own head, without facts. Give me examples and facts, not your opinion, we have had issues but nothing state backed, nothing organised as happens in India and has been happening since their creation in 1947. Please don't give me odd examples, I want something substantial to proof it is systematic in Pakistan, and happens regularly, if you cannot then please accept you are misinformed. it is hearsay because no-one challenges it. On certain topics, it better to work on facts rather then opinions.

Where did Mughals come into this? are you serious? India is little over 70 years old, that was the Mughal empire, not India. India was a region, like Europe, never a country.
India as a country is only a modern notion. Please please understand the issue before you attempt to discuss it, please do some reading brother, you are seriously misinformed.

 

[Musalman]

There are so many inaccuracies in your statements, I honestly do not know where to start. The only thing makes this situation better is, because you are a Pakistani, I have to assume it is because of being unaware, rather then malicious reasoning. So, I will keep it short rather then enlarging the discussion.

You "think" we killed, I think if you make such strong claims you should "know". You are aware of the general perception, but not the reality. The number of people killed in blasphemy related issues is very small indeed, it is mostly the court cases that are an issue, and most people are proven innocent, because the legal system is slow, they just get dragged on. No murder or persecution, it is not "state" backed, nor is it backed by any organisations, as in India. And, most and I mean large majority of anti-blasphemy cases are against Muslims, not minorities. But that is not the point, the point was against the minority groups. you are wide off the mark.

First of all I agree this aggression against the minority is not state sponsored. But people are to blame and with people I mean "we" .

Explained: Pakistan’s emotive blasphemy laws

In recent years, a record number of cases have been filed under blasphemy law introduced during British colonial rule.

www.aljazeera.com

Cases are not few yes few people have been killed. And yes mostly killed are Muslims. Does it justify??? We are Muslims, we are suppose to be the best of the nations. Even one innocent person is killed, I'll say we are intolerant.

India has had hundreds and thousands of riots and killings. As you are aware of Gujarat riots, I'll tell you about another Gujarat riot in 1969, where nearly 700 Muslims also were killed, officially, unofficially around 2 thousand, that was at the height of secular India, please don't make grand claims on such topics, the minorities in Pakistan are far better treated then in India.

Well I can not talk about you but I have seen in many household where people do not drink from the same glass as their maid. I think you see it. If by killing makes us intolerant than yes we are very tolerant because we have not killed many people.

We do nothing but accept out mistakes, you are a prime example, and I know so many like you, who are readily willing to put the blame on our own head, without facts. Give me examples and facts, not your opinion, we have had issues but nothing state backed, nothing organised as happens in India and has been happening since their creation in 1947. Please don't give me odd examples, I want something substantial to proof it is systematic in Pakistan, and happens regularly, if you cannot then please accept you are misinformed. it is hearsay because no-one challenges it. On certain topics, it better to work on facts rather then opinions.

Again I agree with you nothing is state sponsored but it is mob sponsored or culture sponsored too.

Where did Mughals come into this? are you serious? India is little over 70 years old, that was the Mughal empire, not India. India was a region, like Europe, never a country.
India as a country is only a modern notion. Please please understand the issue before you attempt to discuss it, please do some reading brother, you are seriously misinformed.

Mughals were the muslims. Had they been tolerant all the dalits in India would have been Muslims.

 

[PakistaniJunior]

These two are not the same, any more than Muslims and terrorists are the same.

I made that distinction between Normal Hindus and Hindutvas in my in-depth reply. Though i do think that a good portion of the Indian population are sympathizers of these extremists.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @masterchief_mirza On topic, i do agree with both of your points. Pakistanis need to figure out a effective way to counter Indian propaganda and narrative building. The situation is somewhat better as the awareness regarding us is increasing in the world gradually, as well as for the Kashmiri cause, but much still needs to be done. Indians due to their sheer population tends to outnumber us at different platforms. Pakistanis need to counter it and we should do it in a way we don't destroy our credibility either.

However another thing i have noticed is that the world in general doesn't thinks too highly of Indian opinions either. In a way, they are destroying their creditibility themselves. Indians are notoriously stereotyped in a lot of different ways xD

 

[peagle]

First of all I agree this aggression against the minority is not state sponsored. But people are to blame and with people I mean "we" .

Explained: Pakistan’s emotive blasphemy laws

In recent years, a record number of cases have been filed under blasphemy law introduced during British colonial rule.

www.aljazeera.com

Cases are not few yes few people have been killed. And yes mostly killed are Muslims. Does it justify??? We are Muslims, we are suppose to be the best of the nations. Even one innocent person is killed, I'll say we are intolerant.


Well I can not talk about you but I have seen in many household where people do not drink from the same glass as their maid. I think you see it. If by killing makes us intolerant than yes we are very tolerant because we have not killed many people.

Again I agree with you nothing is state sponsored but it is mob sponsored or culture sponsored too.

Mughals were the muslims. Had they been tolerant all the dalits in India would have been Muslims.

You honestly do not know how to have a discussion,

We were having a discussion about the status of minorities in Pakistan, you cannot jump from one point to another, that's not how it works. What happens or does not happen is not the issue here.

You made a statement about the oppression and killing of minorities in Pakistan in a sweeping manner, now you are admitting it is not true but have gone off into a different tangent.

Argue the point, don't try to sound holier then thou, the treatment of minorities in Pakistan is far far far better then what has been, and is happening in India still, that was our argument, and you have accepted it.

You are wrong on the Mughal point too, but that's a totally different discussion, and I don't really care and don't wish to continue our discussion.

If you keep jumping from one point to next, no discussion would ever come to and end. It was a pointed discussion, and we have concluded it by you acknowledging you were wrong. so, please brother don't make points without having relevant facts. Thank you.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

It's a difficult one. @peagle raises a good point - the war is a narrative war, hence it does us no good sitting back and ignoring. At the same time, ignoring their rants is an effective way of getting them to lose interest and stay quiet, and is also the solution of relative ease. There is no consistent uniform answer for each and every scenario. Sometimes ignoring is best. Sometimes, we are compelled to counter attack.

I know what I've said isn't very helpful in terms of a solution, but I have found it to be the reality.

You are right, we need a multi-pronged strategy to deal with this issue. None of us are wrong, per say. There is time to build our narrative and counter-narrative still.

We have readily available to us, the statements of RSS leaders, sometimes so ludicrous that we must read them twice to make sure. Therefore there is no need to reply to their microphones here on PDF, we can just go directly to the source.

What I am saying is that currently, on this forum, we are being again inundated by Indian trolls who are pushing their Islamophobic and anti-Pakistan narrative as far as to threads on Azerbaycan.

Obviously banning them is not working because the same users come again in new IDs. A new strategy needs to be adopted.

The whole environment of the forum has become toxic again, so obviously replying to them directly and going back and forth is ineffective.

There needs to be a system put in place where Indian users who keep pushing forth unsubstantiated claims against Pakistan or Muslims, and cannot back them up with evidence, should face harsh actions.

We need to adopt a strict and proven method to deal with trolls, and my very strong view is that ignoring them, coupled with strong moderation is key.

Thoughts? @Verve @PAKISTANFOREVER @Musings

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

You are right, we need a multi-pronged strategy to deal with this issue. None of us are wrong, per say. There is time to build our narrative and counter-narrative still.

We have readily available to us, the statements of RSS leaders, sometimes so ludicrous that we must read them twice to make sure. Therefore there is no need to reply to their microphones here on PDF, we can just go directly to the source.

What I am saying is that currently, on this forum, we are being again inundated by Indian trolls who are pushing their Islamophobic and anti-Pakistan narrative as far as to threads on Azerbaycan.

Obviously banning them is not working because the same users come again in new IDs. A new strategy needs to be adopted.

The whole environment of the forum has become toxic again, so obviously replying to them directly and going back and forth is ineffective.

There needs to be a system put in place where Indian users who keep pushing forth unsubstantiated claims against Pakistan or Muslims, and cannot back them up with evidence, should face harsh actions.

We need to adopt a strict and proven method to deal with trolls, and my very strong view is that ignoring them, coupled with strong moderation is key.

Thoughts? @Verve @PAKISTANFOREVER @Musings

The only solution is to blanket ban ALL indians no matter WHAT!