Qari Shakeel Killed

[Hiptullha]

This is not a step wise solution or a straightforward parallel solution, this is a carefully planned surgery of a massive cancer.. and there is almost always severe blood-loss and trauma in surgery for the patient.Nobody wants it, we would all be happy that none is needed.. but it at the end it is if this serious a patient is to have any hope of survival. Taking out Qari Shakeel is like removing one growth in a lymph node, that does not at all mean that the cancer is gone or that another growth will not take its place.

Don't be idiotic. We've lost thousands of people and will thousands more if we accept your hare-brained "solution". Wipe out the mullahs? You know, for someone who likes to look modern, pragmatic and forward-thinking, your idea is extremely reactionary. Frankly, I'd say you're on the other end of the fanatic spectrum and that's the "benevolent" crackpot dictator. Your ideas are no different from the out-of-touch Communist leaders in Afghanistan who ignored the ground-realities and decided to go forward with their silly schemes.
I've also noticed you've criticized "Pakistani mentality" numerous times in this forum yet your thoughts deeply reflect what you seem to detest. I've heard the "wipe out all of them" and "we need a massive operation" and "we need a revolution to destroy all of our institutions and create a pure, free, and tolerant society" diatribe numerous times.

 

[SQ8]

Don't be idiotic. We've lost thousands of people and will thousands more if we accept your hare-brained "solution". Wipe out the mullahs? You know, for someone who likes to look modern, pragmatic and forward-thinking, your idea is extremely reactionary. Frankly, I'd say you're on the other end of the fanatic spectrum and that's the "benevolent" crackpot dictator. Your ideas are no different from the out-of-touch Communist leaders in Afghanistan who ignored the ground-realities and decided to go forward with their silly schemes.
I've also noticed you've criticized "Pakistani mentality" numerous times in this forum yet your thoughts deeply reflect what you seem to detest. I've heard the "wipe out all of them" and "we need a massive operation" and "we need a revolution to destroy all of our institutions and create a pure, free, and tolerant society" diatribe numerous times.

I have no interest in liking to look like anybody. As for the Pakistani Mentality, It only seems fair to fight filth with filth.. since the rest has failed.. what would you have us do? Apologize to the Mullah ? Kiss and make up? Say were are sorry? Or embark on some miracle de-extremist program that involves subliminal brainwashing and Levis Jeans? Because for someone trying to pass off as balanced, so far all you've presented is a utopian dreamworld where somehow through a brilliantly executed plan we not only avoid violence and death..we also come out unscathed and progressive with a modern Islamic caliphate...
Sounds like some of those homeopathic doctors who recommend that a pateint with liver failure with their stomach filled with fluids and swelling leave the transplant and stick with their non-harmful and effective method to fix the disease.

Tell me o enlightened one, what is this perfect benign solution that evades all of us? And please avoid the earlier recipe given by another which sounds like a poorly scripted recipe from a TV cook show for Haleem.
"Add wheat, barley and meat to a pot with some masala and cook after which you can have haleem.. garnish as necessary".

C'mon.. impress the people here.. clearly people here seem to want to be "liked".

 

[Hiptullha]

Apologize to the Mullah ? Kiss and make up? Say were are sorry? Or embark on some miracle de-extremist program that involves subliminal brainwashing and Levis Jeans?

I have never argued for anything like this. I recognize the need for drastic action and a swift crackdown on madrassas.

so far all you've presented is a utopian dreamworld

Utopian dreamworld? That's hysterical. I think I'm the only one whose pointed out that our country is right now rotting to the core, and recognize that a mullah witch hunt is the worst thing to do at this point in time. If anything, you're the one who is deluded. While we're busy slaughtering the people who just happen to provide millions of the poor with education, food and shelter, what do you think the rest of the country will be thinking? Ah yes, they'll applaud us. And after wiping out every single madrassa, killing every cleric, we'll erect a school, hospital, and a community centre in each village to prevent the mullahs from coming again.

It only seems fair to fight filth with filth

Here you are talking about "other things failing" while promoting one the most failed mentalities of all time which has led to slaughter of millions of people.

Tell me o enlightened one, what is this perfect benign solution that evades all of us?

Attempts to regulate madrassas, warnings issued to all clerics, and crackdowns on terrorist breeding camps. At the same time, we need something to fill in the vaccum, otherwise the problem will never be solved. First focus on areas where crime and poverty are more rampant and to make sure that we don't spread our resources too thin.
The only reason you feel that this is impossible is because we've only made half-hearted attempts which will produce below satisfactory results.

 

[Amaa'n]

Attempts to regulate madrassas, warnings issued to all clerics, and crackdowns on terrorist breeding camps. At the same time, we need something to fill in the vaccum, otherwise the problem will never be solved. First focus on areas where crime and poverty are more rampant and to make sure that we don't spread our resources too thin.
The only reason you feel that this is impossible is because we've only made half-hearted attempts which will produce below satisfactory results.

a vague attempt at presenting the solution I would say, because this solution ignores the ground realities....let me put it this way....
You see we live in a country where supporters of an Outlaw profane Killer of a sitting governor have outnumbered the number of Security personnel deployed outside the court.
We live in a country here a mother disowned his son and father refused to bury his son just because some mullah had given a fatwa that Army soliders fighting in Fata are infidels and american stooges ..... A Technician from Air Force joins the ranks of TTP and wages war against his former comrades ..... Your Brigadier hatches a plan (not once but twice) to assassinate the entire senior military command , and interestingly in both cases he manages to score good number of support.....every mosque around the corner is housing a madrasah, with no record of what is being taught inside ......yep good luck with that solution my dear
Trust me you will run out of jails to put each and every one of them....so the optimal solution is to kill them all

 

[Mughal-Prince]

yes its so respectable that if a " Tuccha " mullah of some madarsa say burn a women , in Blasphemy case , so people dont even care to think for minute ...
really so respectable , Allah esi Izzat se bache ...

Again you are pointing out towards a mentality. I have seen a video from Lal masjid where AA is with a young boy showing what he has learnt their and that show was totally pathetic but we can't malign every single cleric for his works. Similarly term Islam or Muslims can't be judged by what ISIS or Daiesh doing.

 

[Secur]

Yes

No,
Madressas are no longer just a symptom, they are the lymph nodes to the cancer cells now. What is this fear of being less "religious orientated"? How many of the "religious orientated" are supposedly ideal Muslims? What is "religious orientated" anyway? @Secur You're the definition man..

To answer a Madarsa, one must look carefully at its produce. What good are individuals (99.98%) coming out of seminary to the society and the country at large? Narrow minded, idealist, detached from reality, having no free/critical thinking and relying on God's viceroys for every explanation/guidance, critical of anything good/comfortable in life, worldly education/science & technology antagonist (exerting the primary action by binding to country's progression and showing marked suppression of rationality) and highly skilled in living his whole life on donations (hers will of course be married to the same kind) since well he wont be employed in any industry except menial jobs or skilled labor at best. Unless of course, some people here seem to think that we are falling in short of people to give Azaan or lead Tarawih prayers or that how we will suddenly become less religious by clamping down on the seminaries or even religious terrorists (the most effective propaganda done by Mullahs to portray every action against them as some conspiracy to make the country secular or less religious oriented, hence keeping the brain-dead public in check). Its about time we start or lose the country forever to the extremists/hyper-radicalized.

 

[OTTOMAN]

You'll have to wait for announcement either by the Afghans or Foreign Office. Good if true, another Mullah dead is another win for humanity.

Another fake mullal killed means, another door closed to the master minds of terrorists, who are NOT mullas at all.

Why our brains, fail to see or wonder.... why it is only Pak army, who manage to capture live wanted terrorists, while all other armies of the world, FAIL to succeed even on one single occasion, in capturing live wanted terrorists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hiptullha]

You see we live in a country where supporters of an Outlaw profane Killer of a sitting governor have outnumbered the number of Security personnel deployed outside the court.
We live in a country here a mother disowned his son and father refused to bury his son just because some mullah had given a fatwa that Army soliders fighting in Fata are infidels and american stooges ..... A Technician from Air Force joins the ranks of TTP and wages war against his former comrades ..... Your Brigadier hatches a plan (not once but twice) to assassinate the entire senior military command , and interestingly in both cases he manages to score good number of support.....every mosque around the corner is housing a madrasah, with no record of what is being taught inside ......yep good luck with that solution my dear

It is a much more realistic and sustainable solution than "kill them all". Focus on cutting off the roots of the power of clerics. They've essentially become community leaders because in some cases, they're the ones providing what the state should have been providing to the people. Target both areas and issue stern warnings. This third world mentality of killing them all devastated Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Egypt.
You've pointed out the ingrained support for extremists in our society and then call for killing all mullahs. What do you think will happen when we do start killing them off? Take a minute to ponder.

And we've discussed the support for extremists plenty and fail to recognize how our society has seen such a dramatic 180 degrees turn when it comes to radicalism? Why do they support such people? Why are our own military men joining militant groups and plotting against the state? Is it because of mullahs? Or is it because of the failure of the state? Take a look at it this way. We're demanding people support a weak state which has for the last 4 decades, ruined the domestic affairs of this country. We proclaim our hatred for terrorism while eating away at our counter-terrorism funds for our own weddings and dinner parties. We've been fighting a war in our Northern Areas for the last decade, against splinters of the armed factions we once supported. We now cherish secularism and tolerance, while only 20-30 years ago, we were calling for jihad, war, and the killing of the infidels. Does the establishment look rotten and corrupt? Of course.

 

[SQ8]

Attempts to regulate madrassas, warnings issued to all clerics, and crackdowns on terrorist breeding camps. At the same time, we need something to fill in the vaccum, otherwise the problem will never be solved. First focus on areas where crime and poverty are more rampant and to make sure that we don't spread our resources too thin.
The only reason you feel that this is impossible is because we've only made half-hearted attempts which will produce below satisfactory results.

Let me see, in this regulation of Madressas.. what type of regulations are we proposing? Is it a curriculum regulation? Living standard regulation? Moral regulation? Ethical regulation?
Who will decide on these regulations? The current leadership of the Mullahs themselves? Lets say the Islamic ideology Council?(which in its Islamic knowledge achievements declared child marriages to be ok and progressive).

What will happen on the crackdown on terrorist breeding camps? They walk away? they are arrested and comply peacefully? They agree to be nice people from there on?

Where do we focus on the Crime and Poverty issue? So far crime and poverty is rampant within 95% of Pakistani population areas... so the term focus itself is an oxymoron.

And here is the prime example of "Put rice, meat and water into a cook-pot.. voila.. biryani ready!".

 

[Hiptullha]

Let me see, in this regulation of Madressas.. what type of regulations are we proposing? Is it a curriculum regulation? Living standard regulation? Moral regulation? Ethical regulation?

Who will decide on these regulations? The current leadership of the Mullahs themselves? Lets say the Islamic ideology Council?(which in its Islamic knowledge achievements declared child marriages to be ok and progressive).

Err... how about the Ministry of Federal Education and Professional Training? Nah! Lets just say the mullahs so that I can insert another strawman into my paragraph!

What will happen on the crackdown on terrorist breeding camps? They walk away? they are arrested and comply peacefully? They agree to be nice people from there on?

Now you're just asking questions for the heck of it.
No, they don't walk away.
Yes, they are arrested. What do you think happens when a policeman arrests a murderer and he doesn't comply peacefully?
No, we're not asking them to be nice people. We're demanding they comply with the laws of the land. We have military and anti-terrorism courts currently created to get rid of those who do not comply.

Where do we focus on the Crime and Poverty issue? So far crime and poverty is rampant within 95% of Pakistani population areas... so the term focus itself is an oxymoron.

Focus on the worst of the areas first. And if you read my whole paragraph (you obviously didn't because you've come back to asking ridiculous questions), we focus on the things which clerics have been providing to locals. Education, shelter and food. Laughable? Might be to a cynical expatriate hiding away abroad from where he flings mud ten times a day. But MUCH better than killing thousands of clerics.

 

[SQ8]

Err... how about the Ministry of Federal Education and Professional Training?



Now you're just asking questions for the heck of it.
No, they don't walk away.
Yes, they are arrested. What do you think happens when a policeman arrests a murderer and he doesn't comply peacefully?
No, we're not asking them to be nice people. We're demanding they comply with the laws of the land. We have military and anti-terrorism courts currently created to get rid of those who do not comply.



Focus on the worst of the areas first. And if you read my whole paragraph (you obviously didn't because you've come back to asking ridiculous questions), we focus on the things which clerics have been providing to locals. Education, shelter and food. Laughable? Might be to a cynical expatriate hiding away abroad from where he flings mud ten times a day. But MUCH better than killing thousands of clerics.

So these Mullahs will all suddently accept this new "trainings and education" curriculum as Islamic? They will abandon all their ideas the instant your brilliant plan goes into effect? That problem with you as with ALL of these utopian ideas is that they are devoid if ANY understanding of the psychology of those involved.. not even a bit.

And let me enlighten you on what has happened so far with the "arrests". This is the latest on how the terrorists from the camps there were shut down are doing
Govt wants terror convicts to be shifted to secure jails - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Four prisoners at the district jail Gilgit made an attempt to escape early on Friday during which two prisoners, including one involved in the Nanga Parbat massacre case, managed to flee while one inmate was killed and another wounded

So essentially your whole plan falls apart since our prisons cant even hold those which they have already, let alone the thousands(if not tens of thousands) that will need to be "arrested" for trials and detention.

Oh I did read your paragraph, and I remain with my opinion of it being the instant biryani recipe that it is. It all sounds nice, sophisticated and might even be an attempt to land an article on the WSJ but considering that you are more focused on attacking me shows that you really don't have much concrete to defend in the first place..after all, if anyone who actually had a GOOD idea would focus on their ideas rather than worry about its critics.
I get it, you are ashamed of the idea of admitting that this is a lost cause.. we all have that thing in us which does not want to admit that we really dont know what we are talking about but we need to come off as intelligent and balanced. Maybe I dont know a thing about it all of this either, after all I've been an expatriate for a month now and that is a lifetime compared to the other 27 years in Pakistan. But at least I'll stick to asking those questions that none of you seem to have any concrete answer to, better than personal attacks anyway(which are really enjoyable I agree).

 

[Hiptullha]

So these Mullahs will all suddently accept this new "trainings and education" curriculum as Islamic? They will abandon all their ideas the instant your brilliant plan goes into effect? That problem with you as with ALL of these utopian ideas is that they are devoid if ANY understanding of the psychology of those involved.. not even a bit.

No, there will a carrot and stick approach. I understand that there will be opposition and that the state should respond firmly against it. Why don't you apply some of your own criticisms to your own ideas? Do you think the rest of the nation will suddenly accept your campaign to wipe out all clerics? They will abandon all their support for clerics once your brilliant campaign goes into effect?

So essentially your whole plan falls apart since our prisons cant even hold those which they have already, let alone the thousands(if not tens of thousands) that will need to be "arrested" for trials and detention.

Not really because you're under the false assumption that I'm saying the state wouldn't take appropriate measures to make sure that those arrested aren't detained in secure locations.

Oh I did read your paragraph, and I remain with my opinion of it being the instant biryani recipe that it is. It all sounds nice, sophisticated and might even be an attempt to land an article on the WSJ but considering that you are more focused on attacking me shows that you really don't have much concrete to defend in the first place..after all, if anyone who actually had a GOOD idea would focus on their ideas rather than worry about its critics.
I get it, you are ashamed of the idea of admitting that this is a lost cause.. we all have that thing in us which does not want to admit that we really dont know what we are talking about but we need to come off as intelligent and balanced. Maybe I dont know a thing about it all of this either, after all I've been an expatriate for a month now and that is a lifetime compared to the other 27 years in Pakistan. But at least I'll stick to asking those questions that none of you seem to have any concrete answer to, better than personal attacks anyway(which are really enjoyable I agree)

Two whole paragraphs moaning about the fact that someone called you out on your nonsensical ideas...

 

[Musafir117]

Another dog sent to hell!
On mullah
In a bazar on a rainy day a man like me without having umbrella was trying to take shelters to save himself not get wet!
A mullah from a house window was watching that episode!
He say loudly from window" Mr. Rain is one of blessing from God why you running from it "
That man feel guilty to avoiding blessing and Start walking in rain.
Days pass.....
Same situation but this time Mullah was looking for a shelter!
The same man was watching it from his window, he said mullah sahib why running from God's blessing?
Mullah " Allah ki Rehmat hai kaheen paon talle na ajae
That's how they tricked us

 

[SQ8]

No, there will a carrot and stick approach. I understand that there will be opposition and that the state should respond firmly against it. Why don't you apply some of your own criticisms to your own ideas? Do you think the rest of the nation will suddenly accept your campaign to wipe out all clerics? They will abandon all their support for clerics once your brilliant campaign goes into effect?



Not really because you're under the false assumption that I'm saying the state wouldn't take appropriate measures to make sure that those arrested aren't detained in secure locations.



Two whole paragraphs moaning about the fact that someone called you out on your nonsensical ideas...

The rest of the nation has no reason to accept it, why the need for acceptance? why the need to please the people?
Or does every Pakistani only work if they can please everyone.

The fact that you have to resort to smileys shows that you have zero content to back up your hollow ideas. Which basically means you have nothing to refute that a plan to systematically wipe out extremists and centres of extremism is actually rather sound.

 

[Hiptullha]

The rest of the nation has no reason to accept it, why the need for acceptance? why the need to please the people?
Or does every Pakistani only work if they can please everyone.

Now you're ignoring ground realities. When the state has a habit of getting into the practice of mass murder, people have been known to react violently. In this day and age where our country is already a hotspot for extremism and armed conflict, it should be obvious that any attempt to do what you propose is disastrous.

The fact that you have to resort to smileys shows that you have zero content to back up your hollow ideas. Which basically means you have nothing to refute that a plan to systematically wipe out extremists and centres of extremism is actually rather sound.

The fact you're now clawing away at tiny nit-picky points outside of my argument shows that you know that your idea is flawed. Notice how I that smiley was in response to these two paragraphs which do not provide any sort of rebuttal to my suggestion.

Oh I did read your paragraph, and I remain with my opinion of it being the instant biryani recipe that it is. It all sounds nice, sophisticated and might even be an attempt to land an article on the WSJ but considering that you are more focused on attacking me shows that you really don't have much concrete to defend in the first place..after all, if anyone who actually had a GOOD idea would focus on their ideas rather than worry about its critics.
I get it, you are ashamed of the idea of admitting that this is a lost cause.. we all have that thing in us which does not want to admit that we really dont know what we are talking about but we need to come off as intelligent and balanced. Maybe I dont know a thing about it all of this either, after all I've been an expatriate for a month now and that is a lifetime compared to the other 27 years in Pakistan. But at least I'll stick to asking those questions that none of you seem to have any concrete answer to, better than personal attacks anyway(which are really enjoyable I agree).