Punjab and the Rebellion of 1857

[SarthakGanguly]

It is true that Muslims were the least loyal towards the British
they still had visions of Mughal dynasty

Yeah, and why should they not? They were ruled for almost a century by the Marathas and Sikhs and the desire to lord over the majority, to have the privilege over the 'infidels', just to feel good if nothing else, to have a Badshah (even titular) would have felt great. I find it normal.

The Sikhs and Hindus looked out for themselves in Punjab - hence the total support for the British forces there. In the UP, the loyalties of the Hindus were very divided. As were those of the Muslims.

 

[wiseone2]

You in all probability are trying to vent out your frustration at Pakistani ethnicities when the fact is it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan ------

I have no grudge to grind with pakistanis on how they dealt with the british

what is the point of this statement ??
"it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan"
if you want to make it sound like the people of north western subcontinent are more brave and skilled at fighting you failed

Check your history
The British East india Company started at the coasts - Bombay, Madras and Calcutta.
They conquered Bengal & Bihar in 1757.
It took them 40 years to defeat the Marathas (1775-1819)
The lord of the North west was Ranjit Singh who was friendly to the British. Ranjit Singh died in 1839.
The two Anglo-Sikh wars were between 1845 and 1850. There were Punjabi Muslims in Ranjit Singh's army. In 1850 they took over Punjab and NWFP.
In 1843 the British conquered Sind

If you disagree with any of the above facts please feel free

Yeah, and why should they not? They were ruled for almost a century by the Marathas and Sikhs and the desire to lord over the majority, to have the privilege over the 'infidels', just to feel good if nothing else, to have a Badshah (even titular) would have felt great. I find it normal.

The Sikhs and Hindus looked out for themselves in Punjab - hence the total support for the British forces there. In the UP, the loyalties of the Hindus were very divided. As were those of the Muslims.

i never meant it as a negative

 

[Mentee]

They were ruled for almost a century by the Marathas and Sikhs

Marthas came in for some years only to be butchered by Punjabis as for the Sikh rule over Punjab , it by far proved to be a blessing for Punjab , (after all we are the same group of people with different Faiths) with Punjabi maharaja ranjit singhs Punjabi Muslim chief minister------ and don't spew lies on the pretext of religion. It was Punjabi Muslim Saints fatvas which made the Muslims slaughter mughal armies, unlike Hindu rajputs Punjabi Muslim rajputs didn't marry their women to mughals

 

[wiseone2]

Marthas came in for some years only to be butchered by Punjabis as for the Sikh rule over Punjab it by far proved to be a blessing for Punjab , with maharaja ranjit singhs Muslim chief minister------ and don't spew lies on the pretext of religion. It was Punjabi Muslim Saints fatvas which made the Muslims slaughter mughal armies, unlike Hindu rajputs Punjabi Muslim rajputs didn't marry their women to mughals

Marathas did not control Punjab. They had skirmishes with powers to be in Punjab. They ruled Delhi, parts of UP & Rajasthan, MP, Gujarat and Maharastra. They were the dominant power from 1707 to 1805 (give or take a few years)

 

[Mentee]

if you want to make it sound like the people of north western subcontinent are more brave and skilled at fighting

Any doubt about that look at the make up of Indian military for a moment------ Punjabis and rajputs constitute 6% of Indian populace yet there strength is in lacs------- its all about Punjabis and rajpots on Indian side which have the guts to give enemy a bloody nose while burgers from maratha and other Indian states only know how to brag about their scores in call of duty, with the exception of gurkhas

Marathas did not control Punjab. They had skirmishes with powers to be in Punjab. They ruled Delhi, parts of UP & Rajasthan, MP, Gujarat and Maharastra. They were the dominant power from 1707 to 1805 (give or take a few years)

Like Taliban ? Overwhelm one city state, get a good beating and then run to another with their tails under their legs , speaks volume

 

[Braith]

Marthas came in for some years only to be butchered by Punjabis as for the Sikh rule over Punjab , it by far proved to be a blessing for Punjab , (after all we are the same group of people with different Faiths) with Punjabi maharaja ranjit singhs Punjabi Muslim chief minister------ and don't spew lies on the pretext of religion. It was Punjabi Muslim Saints fatvas which made the Muslims slaughter mughal armies, unlike Hindu rajputs Punjabi Muslim rajputs didn't marry their women to mughals

Thats not true............it was Punjabi Musalman leader Adina Beg Arian who invited Marathas to Punjab against Afghans. Adina had recruits from Muslim martial tribes of Punjab under his banner and he also had support of Sikhs......so a triple alliance, Punjabi Muslims + Sikhs + Marathas , was formed against Afghans......Marathas appointed Adina Beg as governor of Punjab................Marathas did not face any resistance in Punjab from local Muslims.....they run away from Punjab on the news of approach of Abdali army from Afghanistan......

Do tell us which Punjabi saint issued fatwas against Mughals?.....as far as i know Punjab under Mughals enjoyed peace and its people remained very loyal to Mughal badshahs.

And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance. The only Punjabi clan, they sought after , were Ghakkars of Potohar.........Ghakkar chiefs were given mansabs and offices and two females from this baradri entered into royal harem of Mughals.

 

[Kabira]

Do tell us which Punjabi saint issued fatwas against Mughals?.....as far as i know Punjab under Mughals enjoyed peace and its people remained very loyal to Mughal badshahs.

And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance. The only Punjabi clan, they sought after , were Ghakkars of Potohar.........Ghakkar chiefs were given mansabs and offices and two females from this baradri entered into royal harem of Mughals.

This isn't true, we all know about Dullah Bhatti but only recently I found out about Panah Bhatti who was from Gujranwala.

"In 1738, Panah Bhatti, a very powerful, Chieftain, had the whole of western Punjab, from Hasan Abdal, Attock, to the banks of the River Ravi, at his mercy, Gujranwala area, was to under his influence, but was defeated, by the Muslim Mughal Governors, of Lahore. Panah Bhatti, was captured and killed."

Or this

"After destroying the Fort of Lohgarh, the Nawab turned his attention to the supression of the recalcitrant Kharal, Gondal, Bhatti and Ranjha tribes of the bar area [modern Faisalabad and Sheikhupura districts of Pakistan.."

These 4 tribes were 95% or even more muslims in western punjab. I don't think gondal, ranjha and kharal sikh/hindus exist. But I agree overall punjabi muslims didn't had much problem with Mughals, maybe thats why Adina (Mughal governor even if punjabi) used to get support easily from them against Afghans or later on against Sikhs. More persian manuscripts needs to be translated to get clear picture of history of this region.

 

[Braith]

This isn't true, we all know about Dullah Bhatti but only recently I found out about Panah Bhatti who was from Gujranwala.

"In 1738, Panah Bhatti, a very powerful, Chieftain, had the whole of western Punjab, from Hasan Abdal, Attock, to the banks of the River Ravi, at his mercy, Gujranwala area, was to under his influence, but was defeated, by the Muslim Mughal Governors, of Lahore. Panah Bhatti, was captured and killed."

Or this

"After destroying the Fort of Lohgarh, the Nawab turned his attention to the supression of the recalcitrant Kharal, Gondal, Bhatti and Ranjha tribes of the bar area [modern Faisalabad and Sheikhupura districts of Pakistan.."

These 4 tribes were 95% or even more muslims in western punjab. I don't think gondal, ranjha and kharal sikh/hindus exist. But I agree overall punjabi muslims didn't had much problem with Mughals, maybe thats why Adina (Mughal governor even if punjabi) used to get support easily from them against Afghans or later on against Sikhs. More persian manuscripts needs to be translated to get clear picture of history of this region.

I do know about Dullah Bhatti but hard to tell whether he was hunted down by Mughals for his "Robinhood-banditry" or he was an actual threat to the state........real history might be different from folklore about him......Mannuci , the Italian travelller of 17th century who wrote Mughal history, has great details about Punjab and its people, mentions Ghakkars in postive light but mention Bhattis as 'robbers', that they have been troublesome for Mughal authorities and people due to their banditry. He records that Bhattis are also recruited in Mughal army........there are six volumes of his book "storia da mogor" so it will be hard for me to find the exact page but the book is available online in PDF form....

I did have read "Later Mughal history of Punjab" by Hari Ram Gupta where Panah Bhatti is mentioned, but so much information is stuffed in that book, full of attacks and activities of Sikhs, that it skips the mind......18th century is period of chaos, and loose Mughal control......what i had in my mind was period between Akbar and Aurangzeb's death......I doubt any Punjabi darvesh or scholar has issued any fatwa against Mughals........may be against inclination of Akbar towards Hindus?......Waris Shah (and i am sure Bulleh Shah also) had praises for Mughals

 

[Manidabest]

well to be frank as a Punjabi muslim i think now Punjabi muslims have a say in their affairs otherwise we were always under the rule of Arabs(Umayya Dynasty & Abbasid Dynasty), Turks ( Ghaznaviz, Ghorids, Mamluks, Mughals), Afghans( Lodhis, Suris, Abadalis), Marathas, Sikhs( but non muslims), & British....After the seperation of countries we have done pretty well but we should treat the other equally ... our mentality & personality needs to develop very well and we need to have self confidence .... now Shahbaaz sharif a kashmiri is ruling our Punjab ... Muslim Punjabis were able to produce good agriculturalists, soldiers, or politicians in the past but now we have produced generals and, scientists, engineers, bankers, traders a different class ... we shudnt be ashamed of our past and we shudnt neglect our language( prefering urdu over punjabi)..... we have rich traditions and history ....

 

[Mentee]

Thats not true............it was Punjabi Musalman leader Adina Beg Arian who invited Marathas to Punjab against Afghans. Adina had recruits from Muslim martial tribes of Punjab under his banner and he also had support of Sikhs......so a triple alliance, Punjabi Muslims + Sikhs + Marathas , was formed against Afghans......Marathas appointed Adina Beg as governor of Punjab................Marathas did not face any resistance in Punjab from local Muslims.....they run away from Punjab on the news of approach of Abdali army from Afghanistan......

Do tell us which Punjabi saint issued fatwas against Mughals?.....as far as i know Punjab under Mughals enjoyed peace and its people remained very loyal to Mughal badshahs.

And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance. The only Punjabi clan, they sought after , were Ghakkars of Potohar.........Ghakkar chiefs were given mansabs and offices and two females from this baradri entered into royal harem of Mughals.

I was simply refuting his assertions that marathas ruled Punjab for a century, for the fatvas, Madho Lal Hussein and many other Saints issued fatvas against mughals, have your read literary works of Baba Bullah Shah?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Any doubt about that look at the make up of Indian military for a moment------ Punjabis and rajputs constitute 6% of Indian populace yet there strength is in lacs------- its all about Punjabis and rajpots on Indian side which have the guts to give enemy a bloody nose while burgers from maratha and other Indian states only know how to brag about their scores in call of duty, with the exception of gurkhas


Like Taliban ? Overwhelm one city state, get a good beating and then run to another with their tails under their legs , speaks volume

I suggest you read up about the composition of the British East India Company's troops. Agha Amin might be a good place to start. Do remember that all these macho races were conquered by UP and Bihar bhaiyas.

 

[Kabira]

I do know about Dullah Bhatti but hard to tell whether he was hunted down by Mughals for his "Robinhood-banditry" or he was an actual threat to the state........real history might be different from folklore about him......Mannuci , the Italian travelller of 17th century who wrote Mughal history, has great details about Punjab and its people, mentions Ghakkars in postive light but mention Bhattis as 'robbers', that they have been troublesome for Mughal authorities and people.......there are six volumes of his book "storia da mogor" so it will be hard for me to find the exact page but the book is available online in PDF form....

I did have read "Later Mughal history of Punjab" by Hari Ram Gupta where Panah Bhatti is mentioned, but so much information is stuffed in that book, full of attacks and activities of Sikhs, that it skips the mind......18th century is period of chaos, and loose Mughal control......what i had in my mind was period between Akbar and Aurangzeb's death......

Have you read about sikhs and pashtun alliance in Hazara against British?

 

[wiseone2]

Any doubt about that look at the make up of Indian military for a moment------ Punjabis and rajputs constitute 6% of Indian populace yet there strength is in lacs------- its all about Punjabis and rajpots on Indian side which have the guts to give enemy a bloody nose while burgers from maratha and other Indian states only know how to brag about their scores in call of duty, with the exception of gurkhas

It is irrelevant to the above discussion. Punjab capitulated in 5 years to the British (1845-1850)

Any doubt about that look at the make up of Indian military for a moment------ Punjabis and rajputs constitute 6% of Indian populace yet there strength is in lacs------- its all about Punjabis and rajpots on Indian side which have the guts to give enemy a bloody nose while burgers from maratha and other Indian states only know how to brag about their scores in call of duty, with the exception of gurkhas


Like Taliban ? Overwhelm one city state, get a good beating and then run to another with their tails under their legs , speaks volume

The Marathas base of power was in Deccan. They had no political base in Punjab. They wiped out the Mughals. They fought the British the longest. Their reign lasted 100 years. Nothing changes that

I suggest you read up about the composition of the British East India Company's troops. Agha Amin might be a good place to start. Do remember that all these macho races were conquered by UP and Bihar bhaiyas.

it was not even close ...

 

[Braith]

Have you read about sikhs and pashtun alliance in Hazara against British?

No, i am not aware of it........as per my knowledge, Jadoons, Mashwanis, Swatis etc cooperated with British against Sikhs in Anglo-Sikh wars

I was simply refuting his assertions that marathas ruled Punjab for a century, for the fatvas, Madho Lal Hussein and many other Saints issued fatvas against mughals, have your read literary works of Baba Bullah Shah?

Madho Lal Hussein (1538–1599)........do tell us what kind of fatwa he issued against emperor Akbar?. Keep in mind that Akbar's Din-i-Ilahi greatly agitated ulemas and religious folk all across the India, not just Punjab .....the contemporary European travelers in India have recorded rumours about Akbar spread in the general population that he had become a Hindu, that he hanged people for cow slaughter, that he had opened sharab-khanas , that Arabic is banned etc......many of the rumours were baseless but you can understand what kind of image Akbar had in the interior of India amongst its Muslim population

 

[Mentee]

I suggest you read up about the composition of the British East India Company's troops. Agha Amin might be a good place to start. Do remember that all these macho races were conquered by UP and Bihar bhaiyas.

It is irrelevant to the above discussion. Punjab capitulated in 5 years to the British (1845-1850)



The Marathas base of power was in Deccan. They had no political base in Punjab. They wiped out the Mughals. They fought the British the longest. Their reign lasted 100 years. Nothing changes that



it was not even close ...

Talk Is frivolous , I suggest you pitch Indian Punjabis and rajputs against the whole of Indian masses. Raise two parallel armies of these groups then distribute 45% of the military assests to the Punjabi jats and rajpiuts . While the other side can recruit as many soldiers it want to with the 55% assets already at its disposal, iam sure , the world would witness a Punjabi victory if not a stalemate