Punjab and the Rebellion of 1857

[wiseone2]

Talk Is frivolous , I suggest you pitch Indian Punjabis and rajputs against the whole of Indian masses. Raise two parallel armies of these groups then distribute 45% of the military assests to the Punjabi jats and rajpiuts . While the other side can recruit as many soldiers it want to with the 55% assets already at its disposal, iam sure , the world would witness a Punjabi victory if not a stalemate

it is completely irrelevant to modern warfare. West Pakistanis could not control Bengalis in 1971

" the fact is it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan "
Your original line was a complete fallacy. It took a few days for a modern army to rout the Sikhs and take over modern day Pakistan.

 

[Mentee]

it is completely irrelevant to modern warfare. West Pakistanis could not control Bengalis in 1971

" the fact is it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan "
Your original line was a complete fallacy. It took a few days for a modern army to rout the Sikhs and take over modern day Pakistan.

Sikhs are Punjabi so what's the point? Punjabi capturin Punjab!
Edit: Mahraja ranjit Singh was from Gujranwala. A little google search would help you, where Gujranwala is.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Talk Is frivolous , I suggest you pitch Indian Punjabis and rajputs against the whole of Indian masses. Raise two parallel armies of these groups then distribute 45% of the military assests to the Punjabi jats and rajpiuts . While the other side can recruit as many soldiers it want to with the 55% assets already at its disposal, iam sure , the world would witness a Punjabi victory if not a stalemate

I doubt it strongly. Several times in history, the Punjab has been a dominated out-march of Gangetic empires, and on one occasion, even a south Indian power had swept the board. These fables of the martial races were created by the British; they should have died with the British Empire. It is intriguing to see that it has survived in one part of the world, but in a distorted, twisted form.

Sikhs are Punjabi so what's the point? Punjabi capturin Punjab!
Edit: Mahraja ranjit Singh was from Gujranwala. A little google search would help you, where Gujranwala is.

Please read his remark carefully. He mentioned a modern Army conquering the Sikhs. Actually, while he is wrong, the point is that it was not a modern Punjabi Army conquering the Sikhs, so your Punjabi capturing Punjabi does not apply.

That ship has sailed long since.

 

[Mentee]

I doubt it strongly. Several times in history, the Punjab has been a dominated out-march of Gangetic empires, and on one occasion, even a south Indian power had swept the board. These fables of the martial races were created by the British; they should have died with the British Empire. It is intriguing to see that it has survived in one part of the world, but in a distorted, twisted form.



Please read his remark carefully. He mentioned a modern Army conquering the Sikhs. Actually, while he is wrong, the point is that it was not a modern Punjabi Army conquering the Sikhs, so your Punjabi capturing Punjabi does not apply.

That ship has sailed long since.

With all due respect sir claims regarding some imaginary south Indian empire invading and ruling Punjab has been debunked many a times at PDF . You exclude Punjabi jats and rajput tribes out of the equation, Indian army will fall apart while facing a potential enemy.
Why don't you give a try to my idea, hmmm some simulation-----

 

[Joe Shearer]

With all due respect sir claims regarding some imaginary south Indian empire invading and ruling Punjab has been debunked many a times at PDF . You exclude Punjabi jats and rajput tribes out of the equation, Indian army will fall apart while facing a potential enemy.
Why don't you give a try to my idea, hmmm some simulation-----

I do not remember any such debunking. I have been a member for some time, and have participated, even led most discussions on historical subjects.

I suggest before making such an undue hue and cry about this silly theory, you read Agha Amin. He may be able to correct your delusions. I have neither the patience nor the inclination to try.

You do remember, of course, that teachers are sometimes, when inclined suitably, mentors.

 

[Mentee]

I do not remember any such debunking. I have been a member for some time, and have participated, even led most discussions on historical subjects.

I suggest before making such an undue hue and cry about this silly theory, you read Agha Amin. He may be able to correct your delusions. I have neither the patience nor the inclination to try.

You do remember, of course, that teachers are sometimes, when inclined suitably, mentors.

You are entitled to your opinion and thanks alot for calling me delusional But the fact is, that children of indus thread deciphered many misconceptions vis a vis Punjab and IVC-----

 

[Joe Shearer]

You are entitled to your opinion and thanks alot for calling me delusional But the fact is, that children of indus thread deciphered many misconceptions vis a vis Punjab and IVC-----

I have not the slightest idea what that means, or what you are talking about.

 

[Mentee]

I have not the slightest idea what that means, or what you are talking about.

Mera kam ho gea sir g good night

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Let us not be defensive about this. Punjabis did help the British put down the mutiny.
The revolting sepoys help the British conquer Punjab by defeating the Sikh kingdom

if the mutiny had succeeded the future would have been uncertain for India



why are they politicians ?? Why can't they be generals ??

The soldiers that took down the Panjabi state were not from Panjab but rather from modern day Indian states of Awadh,Rajhistan and others...

The was one of the reasons the Panjabi soldiers in 57 had no problem killing the same men who helped colonise their country...

For more read "Sepoy and the Raj" by David Omissi.. A British military historian..

The Gugera movement etc were a result of British authorities and the imposition of unjust taxation.. Which turned into an insurgency.. Which was crushed with the helped of none other than traitors many of who's descendants now sitting in our parliaments both provincial and national...

Most of these Fukin landlords/politicians are byproducts of Fukin scumbags who sided with the British for financial and political gains..

Thats not true............it was Punjabi Musalman leader Adina Beg Arian who invited Marathas to Punjab against Afghans. Adina had recruits from Muslim martial tribes of Punjab under his banner and he also had support of Sikhs......so a triple alliance, Punjabi Muslims + Sikhs + Marathas , was formed against Afghans......Marathas appointed Adina Beg as governor of Punjab................Marathas did not face any resistance in Punjab from local Muslims.....they run away from Punjab on the news of approach of Abdali army from Afghanistan......

Do tell us which Punjabi saint issued fatwas against Mughals?.....as far as i know Punjab under Mughals enjoyed peace and its people remained very loyal to Mughal badshahs.

Adina Baig didn't just have alliances with Sikhs or Marathas (whom he paid 75 lakh to do his dirty work) but also with the Mughals .. He played all for his gains .. He used them against eachother and emerged as the most powerful man of Panjab.

A peasant by origin .. Became sort of a king of Panjab.

And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance. The only Punjabi clan, they sought after , were Ghakkars of Potohar.........Ghakkar chiefs were given mansabs and offices and two females from this baradri entered into royal harem of Mughals.

The Mughals also had Pashtun wifes .. Ironic how the same men whom Babur had massacred later married their women into the Mughals.

You are entitled to your opinion and thanks alot for calling me delusional But the fact is, that children of indus thread deciphered many misconceptions vis a vis Punjab and IVC-----

Joe is in denial..

The British
did recruit South Indians and even "bhaiyas" as he calls the UP people etc.. But those regiments were disbanded after the soldiers of those (south and central indian) origin proved to be rather "unwarlike",lazy and ill suited for the job...

The British actually used the same formula when they recruited soldiers from regions like Scotland and so on...

 

[Kabira]

No, i am not aware of it........as per my knowledge, Jadoons, Mashwanis, Swatis etc cooperated with British against Sikhs in Anglo-Sikh wars

"THE HAZARA DISTRICT. 429

the district had not a new enemy risen up against him in the
person of Ghulam Haidar Khan, son of the Amir Dost
Mahomed Khan of Kabul. This prince had been sent by his
father to seize Kashmir after the fall of Attock'in January, 1848.
Ghulam Haidar joined his forces with those of the Sikhs
with the object of putting an end to British influence on the
Frontier almost before it had commenced to bud. The
combination looked too powerful to be resisted ; and most
of the Hazara Chiefs, including the Turins and Tarkhelis,
went over to the allies, leaving Abbott almost alone. This
gallant officer did not even then despair. He moved back
to the country round Sherwan, determined to oppose the
passage of the Duranis in the event of their making a move
towards Kashmir.

In the meanwhile the fate of the rebels was being sealed
lower down upon the plains of Gujrat and Chilianwala.
Almost within a year of their capture of Attock, the last of
the Afghans had fled back over the Indus to their own
mountains ; while the Sikh power was broken up for ever,
and their country possessed by the British. After an anxious
seven months of waiting, Abbott found himself able to smile
upon the few friends who had remained faithful and helped
him in all his difficulties, believing in his assurances that the
English must win in the end. The Khanpur Gakhars stuck
to Abbott throughout ; and some of their best men went
down to Multan and served at the siege under Edwardes.
They, moreover, paid their revenue to us regularly during
the war, when Abbott wanted all the money he could collect.
Yet the treatment they received when we took the country
over was not such as we can now feel proud of. They were
merely confirmed in their old jagirs and told to wait for a
consideration of their claims to the ownership of their villages,
which had been snatched from them by the Sikhs, until the
district should come under regular setdement."

https://archive.org/stream/chiefsfamiliesof00massrich/chiefsfamiliesof00massrich_djvu.txt

So Afghans and Sikhs joined hands against British but Ghakkhars were on side of British. Its not that surprising. There were hardly any Afghan/pashtun settlements in north and central punjab apart from in Kasur. They at most used to go back to mountains but in case of Ghakhars sikhs captured their jagirs etc

Didn't sikhs also help some Afghan ruler Shuja Khan?

 

[Braith]

Most of these Fukin landlords/politicians are byproducts of Fukin scumbags who sided with the British for financial and political gains..

Sounds strange coming from your mouth..............Is'nt Pakistan army, in which your father is employed, is also a byproduct of British imperialism?. Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum, Habibllah Khan and all other Muslim leagui leaders from my province, were also namak-khwar of British and served in British offices....for example here famous Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum Khan is defending British policy in opposition to Afghan delegate

The Mughals did recruit South Indians and even "bhaiyas" as he calls the UP people etc.. But those regiments were disbanded after the soldiers of those (south and central indian) origin proved to be rather "unwarlike",lazy and ill suited for the job...

The British actually used the same formula when they recruited soldiers from regions like Scotland and so on...

Thats not true.........South India came into possession of Mughals in very late stage , under Aurangzeb, and even then the rule over the area was not on firm footing and the focus was diverted towards crushing Maratha insurgency which grew stronger in last 25 years of Aurangzeb's reign. So absence of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala etc from Mughal hierarchy is understandable........but keep in mind, Aurangzeb recruited large number of Maratha officers and soldiers.....

Your "bhaiya" taunt, did not exist back in Mughal period........one of the most formidable soldiers of Mughals, who always had the honour and tradition of leading Mughal vanguard, were the so called "bhaiyas" of UP, i.e Sayyids of Barha, who later led Hindustani faction in 1710-1720. Moreover large number of officers and soldiers of Mughals were these "bahiya" Rajputs of U.P and Bihar......You must have come under spell of martial theory of your British masters, but its nonsensical.......refrain from bragging and "bhaiya" taunt to U.P-walas in regard to their role in Mughal empire.....because while your Balochs were not even considered by Mughals (even though you people have folklore of winning Delhi for Humayun), U.P was epicenter of Mughal empire and Delhi sultanates before them....

 

[Kabira]

Found another reference of Afghan alliance with Sikhs against British

"On the 21st of February, the battle of Gujrat was fought, when the
united Sikh and Afghan army was ^mpletely defeated, with the loss of
53 guns. This was virtually the end of the war. The victory was fol-
lowed up with vigour, and at Rawal Pindi, on the 14th March, Chattar
^iiujh and Sher ShAgh^ with what remained together of the Sikh army,
some 16^000 men, laid down their arms."
https://archive.org/stream/panjabchiefshis00grifgoog/panjabchiefshis00grifgoog_djvu.txt

why are they politicians ?? Why can't they be generals ??

I was only half serious by calling them traitors, not sure what these disorganised tribes were fighting for. Mughals were long gone, British were clearly better alternative.

 

[Braith]

Found another reference of Afghan alliance with Sikhs against British

"On the 21st of February, the battle of Gujrat was fought, when the
united Sikh and Afghan army was ^mpletely defeated, with the loss of
53 guns. This was virtually the end of the war. The victory was fol-
lowed up with vigour, and at Rawal Pindi, on the 14th March, Chattar
^iiujh and Sher ShAgh^ with what remained together of the Sikh army,
some 16^000 men, laid down their arms."
https://archive.org/stream/panjabchiefshis00grifgoog/panjabchiefshis00grifgoog_djvu.txt

I did know that Amir Dost Muhammad Khan was supporting Sikhs in war with British.......did not know to which extent..........After first Anglo-Afghan war , he had realized Angraiz to be a greater threat. An interesting bit from history is, that he actually managed to occupy Peshawar city after fall of Sikh rule at the hands of British.......but he failed to gain the support of local Pashtun chiefs who had sold themselves to British, so when he heard of British army approach towards Peshawar , he run away towards Kabul without even contest.

 

[Manidabest]

this is not the thread on sikhs & pashtuns or anyone else .....this thread is all about Punjabi muslims...and pls respect that thank you

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Sounds strange coming from your mouth..............Is'nt Pakistan army, in which your father is employed, is also a byproduct of British imperialism?

Sounds strange coming from a marwat whose family was also saved by the byproduct of imperialism?

Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum, Habibllah Khan and all other Muslim leagui leaders from my province, were also namak-khwar of British and served in British offices....for example here famous Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum Khan is defending British policy in opposition to Afghan delegate

Doesn't have anything to do with my post now ?

Thats not true.........South India came into possession of Mughals in very late stage , under Aurangzeb, and even then the rule over the area was not on firm footing and the focus was diverted towards crushing Maratha insurgency which grew stronger in last 25 years of Aurangzeb's reign. So absence of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala etc from Mughal hierarchy is understandable........but keep in mind, Aurangzeb recruited large number of Maratha officers and soldiers...

I meant British .. As for Mughals or Aurangzeb he also butchered a lot of Marathas too... Didn't he ? What should those turn coat Marathas etc serving Aurangzeb he considered ?

Your "bhaiya" taunt, did not exist back in Mughal period........one of the most formidable soldiers of Mughals, who always had the honour and tradition of leading Mughal vanguard, were the so called "bhaiyas" of UP, i.e Sayyids of Barha, who later led Hindustani faction in 1710-1720.

he ancestor of Bārha Sayyids, Syed Abu'l Farah AlHussaini, left his original home in Wasit, Iraq, with his twelve sons at the end of the 10th century (or in the beginning of the 11th century) and migrated to India, where he obtained four estates in Punjab. By the sixteenth century Abu'l Farah's descendants had taken over Bārha estates in Muzzafarnagar.[2]

Moreover large number of officers and soldiers of Mughals were these "bahiya" Rajputs of U.P and Bihar......You must have come under spell of martial theory of your British masters, but its nonsensical.......refrain from bragging and "bhaiya" taunt to U.P-walas in regard to their role in Mughal empire.....because while your Balochs were not even considered by Mughals (even though you people have folklore of winning Delhi for Humayun), U.P was epicenter of Mughal empire and Delhi sultanates before them....

You don't have half a brain to comprehend that my post was directed at joe using the same word.. And it's ironic that a man who always bitchez about Urdu speakers is now talking shyt and defending them.

As for masters .. Ironic coming from your kind ... It has produced more turn coats that any other group... Your kind served even those who butchered you so spare me the sermons at least unlike you we weren't doing the dirty work for every other enemy a few years later after humiliation.

We a small ethnic group however did rule princely states in north India aswell as Sindh and southern Panjab... And frankly we don't give a fuk about people ...

Wonder if you consider Babur who made towers of skulls (of your people) your greatest master aswell?