Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Scorpiooo]

It is just based on the progress of 6th-generation fighters of USA and China.
If everything goes well, CAC would export J-20 in the near future.

Agree sir with you, but it will be altesst decade away before we see some actual 6th generation initial production, might see 5.5 test birds flying in coming years, correct me if i wrong.

In my opinion we will see gen 5.5 much earlier before actual 6th gen
Right now its 4 to 5 active 6th generation program around world but on early stages

Oh come on ... and why should China invest that amount of money - in fact by your own calculation more than 55% of its budget to develop a fighter only for export!? What about its other assets.

Thats my point why china invest entirely on PaF requirements as they have 2 active fighter belong to 5th gen, now they will invest on 6th gen or some 5.5 program, correct me if i am wrong @Deino

 

[LKJ86]

Agree sir with you, but it will be altesst decade away before we see some actual 6th generation initial production, might see 5.5 test birds flying in coming years, correct me if i wrong.

In my opinion we will see gen 5.5 much earlier before actual 6th gen
Right now its 4 to 5 active 6th generation program around world but on early stages

J-20, F-35, or others would be upgraded to the so-called 5.5th-generation fighters.

And 6th-generation fighters are not so far away, due to the competition between USA and China.

 

[Akh1112]

China's defense budget: >170 billion USD.
China can invest $ 100 billion to develop similar F-35 fighters

Thats not how the Chinese defense budget works. 170Bn is what actually goes to the forces, that figure DOES NOT involve R&D, The US' defense budget does include R&D

 

[Scorpiooo]

J-20, F-35, or others would be upgraded to the so-called 5.5th-generation fighters.

And 6th-generation fighters are not so far away, due to the competition between USA and China.

Dont forget Tempest

 

[LKJ86]

Dont forget Tempest

Where is it?

 

[Scorpiooo]

Where is it?

Its British project of 6th gen including 2 other countries, as far as public info its most progressed then other till now.

Just google it, you will have all its requirements progess info

 

[Armchair]

If Bilal is right and a true 5th gen Pak project is pushed to 2040-50, then something else will need to be built after the JF-17 run ends. I think here a larger, stealthy single seat and low cost design fits in. Something like a big brother to the JF-17 like the Hornet - Superhornet.

Unless Pakistan plans to import planes only between the last JF-17 and the first 2040-50 true stealth, that seems the logical conclusion.

Sure, Pak can have a few squadrons of J-35s as a tip of the sphere, but this iteration will give the PAF numbers, just as the JF-17 does today.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But what if IAF goes for 5th gen procurement in coming years

Unless the IAF gets the F-35, the IAF's FGFA is about as far-out as the PAF's plans (but the PAF can obviously track sooner by slotting in the FC-31).

However, a FGFA isn't a counter to a FGFA. Rather, a counter to the FGFA is having the right sensor deployment and advanced enough air-to-air missiles (AAM). You could get both with a 4.5+ gen fighter, like the J-10CE, provided you have the subsystems.

If Bilal is right and a true 5th gen Pak project is pushed to 2040-50, then something else will need to be built after the JF-17 run ends. I think here a larger, stealthy single seat and low cost design fits in. Something like a big brother to the JF-17 like the Hornet - Superhornet.

Unless Pakistan plans to import planes only between the last JF-17 and the first 2040-50 true stealth, that seems the logical conclusion.

Sure, Pak can have a few squadrons of J-35s as a tip of the sphere, but this iteration will give the PAF numbers, just as the JF-17 does today.

Based on the CAS' statements, the general idea I get is that an FGFA is supposed to be in the fleet by 2047. So, that could mean an induction period as early as the late 2020s, or as late as the late 2030s.

Basically...

If the PAF selects the FC-31 or J-35 route, then we're looking at the late 2020s, so the switch will happen after the Block-III. But the first operational unit of the FGFA is likely a 2035+ thing, though production can be in full-swing sooner.

If the PAF selects the CAC or TF-X route, then we're looking at the late 2030s. To be honest, if this is the route, then I think the PAF will actually just buy lots of J-10CEs off-the-shelf. It doesn't help industrialization, but the decision-makers at AHQ et. al aren't industry experts, they're combat operators.

So, from their standpoint, what is there to lose with the J-10CE? The JF-17 Block-III is literally going to use the same weapon systems and many subsystems. I think the only point of interest will be adding Ra'ad/Ra'ad II integration. Otherwise, it's a net-benefit over the JF-17 program as-is to-date.

What will PAC do in the mean time? Well, I think it'll try building an actual prototype of the FGFA in that time. It'll, ideally, become very engineering/R&D heavy while the mass production element goes off to the private sector. That labor/resource can take up the mandatory offsets (via civil airliners, helicopters, drones, etc) the PAF links to its FGFA selection (supporting Aviation City is a must).

I'll put it this way as well. If you commit to 180 J-10CEs by 2040, you can confidently ask for deep ToT for the FGFA, and a serious (100%+) offset on the FGFA (sharing the production of the FGFA and/or have China buy from other related industries, like airliners).

@JamD @kursed

Overall, there are ways to get creative with all of these issues, we don't need to become dogmatic to one extreme or another.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Unless the IAF gets the F-35, the IAF's FGFA is about as far-out as the PAF's plans (but the PAF can obviously track sooner by slotting in the FC-31).

There are very High chances of indian going for F35 in near future specially after China India current standoff.

We know India has allocated 15 billion dollars for 114 medium fighter procurement for IAF, after wasting years now they go for 80 Tajas at 6 billion.

That make gap of apx 34 or plus jets and most importantly left 9 Billions in pocket, this open window of F35.

To counter Chinese American have solid reasons to supply these F35 to Indians in future ahead

 

[Readerdefence]

J-20, F-35, or others would be upgraded to the so-called 5.5th-generation fighters.

And 6th-generation fighters are not so far away, due to the competition between USA and China.

Hi BAE (UK) 6th generation they intend to put TEMPEST in 2035 with mass production as well as 2025 will be for prototype as their intention is to retire eurofighter 2040
Thank you

The BAE Systems Tempest[4] is a proposed fighter aircraft concept that is under development in the United Kingdom for the British Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force (AMI).[5][6] It is being developed by a consortium known as "Team Tempest,"[7] consisting of the UK Ministry of Defence, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, Leonardo S.p.A. and MBDA, and is intended to enter service from 2035 replacing the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in service with the RAF and AMI. Two billion pounds will be spent by the British government on the project by 2025.[8]
On 19 July 2019, Sweden and the United Kingdom signed a memorandum of understanding to explore ways of jointly developing sixth-generation air combat technologies.[9] Italy announced its involvement in Project Tempest on 10 September 2019, during DSEI 2019.[10] The Statement of Intent was signed between the UK participant bodies and Italian participant companies (Leonardo Italy, Elettronica, Avio Aero and MBDA Italy).[11]

 

[Falcon26]

There are very High chances of indian going for F35 in near future specially after China India current standoff.

We know India has allocated 15 billion dollars for 114 medium fighter procurement for IAF, after wasting years now they go for 80 Tajas at 6 billion.

That make gap of apx 34 or plus jets and most importantly left 9 Billions in pocket, this open window of F35.

To counter Chinese American have solid reasons to supply these F35 to Indians in future ahead

India operates or will operate the S-400 which means no F-35 for them. The same situation with Turkey.

 

[LKJ86]

Hi BAE (UK) 6th generation they intend to put TEMPEST in 2035 with mass production as well as 2025 will be for prototype as their intention is to retire eurofighter 2040
Thank you

The BAE Systems Tempest[4] is a proposed fighter aircraft concept that is under development in the United Kingdom for the British Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force (AMI).[5][6] It is being developed by a consortium known as "Team Tempest,"[7] consisting of the UK Ministry of Defence, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, Leonardo S.p.A. and MBDA, and is intended to enter service from 2035 replacing the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in service with the RAF and AMI. Two billion pounds will be spent by the British government on the project by 2025.[8]
On 19 July 2019, Sweden and the United Kingdom signed a memorandum of understanding to explore ways of jointly developing sixth-generation air combat technologies.[9] Italy announced its involvement in Project Tempest on 10 September 2019, during DSEI 2019.[10] The Statement of Intent was signed between the UK participant bodies and Italian participant companies (Leonardo Italy, Elettronica, Avio Aero and MBDA Italy).[11]

Just so-called "6th-generation".
The European era has passed...

 

[Syed1.]

One thing Pakistan has going for it is how cheap our labour is, even highly educated and specialized staff.


To give you an example a software engineer in North America with 3-5 years of experience could earn anywhere from $90-150k per annum. In fact pay scales in government/defense roles are even higher. If we assume a median income of $120k for a software engineer that means PKR 20million (breaking it down to per month basis since wages are typically stated on per month basis in PK it makes it about Rs 1.7 mil or 17 lakhs). For 17 lakhs you can hire about 5 software engineers at a pay scale of roughly 3 lakh per month. Which is very lucrative in Pakistan. So for each run of the mill software engineer hired in America, Pakistan could employ 5. This method is often used in companies like Google and Amazon who throw multiple teams at the same problem and see who can find a solution first. Reason being the more people trying to solve a problem increases the possibility of that problem getting solved.


The reason for the above mental math is to dispel the believe of some people saying that Pakistan cannot even afford a NGF program because of how expensive it is by stating how much money was funneled in the F-22 and F-35 programs. Yes components, component testing and validation/verification/accreditation will cost handsome amounts but cost of labour shouldn't be a worry in the greater scheme of things.

 

[Scorpiooo]

India operates or will operate the S-400 which means no F-35 for them. The same situation with Turkey.

That was to cunter only Turkey's

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

That was to cunter only Turkey's

Noop, Turkey, the central body for decades kept up to avionics and optical micro-degrees in both design and production of the F35 project took jobs. And still keep. You don't give this much work share to a country that you don't want to have F35 in your fleet. The F35 issue is all about the stupidity of the bureaucracy and the S400.