Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan is probably holding out till the TFX comes out and matures a little to decide between the two. Waiting to see if the TFX features anything unique and decisive.

Maybe the PAF is also waiting to see if the Single Engine Chinese VTOL fighter develops, could consider a conventional variant (basically a single engine J-20) to save on costs and be able to afford it in large numbers.

Hi,

I am too old to read this bullsh-it---. Have you any clue how long it takes a 5th gen aircraft to mature---.

TFX is not even built---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Why would Pakistan need a VTOL fighter jet?

Pakistan could consider a conventional version of the VTOL aircraft; basically a single engine J-20.

 

[Silicon0000]

Pakistan would consider a conventional version of the VTOL aircraft; basically a single engine J-20.

Why VTOL? Please explain

 

[FuturePAF]

No offence to our Turkish friends but can Turkey really produce a 5th generation aircraft on their own? I am thinking we are overestimating Turkeys capabilities. Even Russia seem to struggling with the SU-57.

How else can we explain why the PAF keeps looking at the TFX, or for that matter wants to develop a fighter of its own.

I have been saying the J-31/35 is the practically ready, and once the PLANAF indicates it wants it, Pakistan should join the program so it can start getting ready. It would basically have the same engine class as our JF-17; which can pay off down the line if we can do license manufacturing of the engine.

It’s the only realistic platform within a reasonable timeframe and will probably have the most affordable cost to build.

Why VTOL? Please explain

Cost, so they can procure in numbers, but it was just my speculation.

considering most nations are going for a mixed 4/5th Gen fleet, the PAF will probably go for the twin engine stealth fighter and keep single engine 4th Gen fighters.

 

[Falcon26]

Pakistan could consider a conventional version of the VTOL aircraft; basically a single engine J-20.

You haven’t answered the question why Pakistan should consider a VTOL fighter plane.

How else can we explain why the PAF keeps looking at the TFX, or for that matter wants to develop a fighter of its own.

I have been saying the J-31/35 is the practically ready, and once the PLANAF indicates it wants it, Pakistan should join the program so it can start getting ready. It would basically have the same engine class as our JF-17; which can pay off down the line if we can do license manufacturing of the engine.

It’s the only realistic platform within a reasonable timeframe and will probably have the most affordable cost to build.


Cost, so they can procure in numbers, but it was just my speculation.

considering most nations are going for a mixed 4/5th Gen fleet, the PAF will probably go for the twin engine stealth fighter and keep single engine 4th Gen fighters.

What makes you think a VTOL plane will be cheaper???

 

[dBSPL]

As someone who follows the subject from outside, I also find it odd that the discussion about MMU is around structurals. The MMU project is not an aircraft intended to be built to just carry half a dozen missiles. Even now, most of the R&D projects announced about this project are not related to manufacturing technologies, but are purely sensor fusions and software-based so that concerned with the design of a new doctrinal structure; such as combat networking in stealth warfare situations, autonomous capabilities and processes related to deep learning, decision support systems and machine-to-machine communication with unmanned swarms, cyber attack and defense etc.

Turkey has no problem with producing hulls. Starting from the A400M structurals to the F35 midframe, the Turkish aerospace companies involved are already among the main sub-suppliers of the world's aviation giants. Not only today, but 30 years ago, Lockheed sold the F-16s it produced at TAI to Egypt. 300 F-16s were built here and TusaŞ facilities were most succesfull production line with its 'Perfect' and 'Zero Defect' rates. We've been putting new brick on it every year since the 80's. I don't know if you are following the MMU topic in the forum, but we recently opened the largest composite production facility in the region and the installation of the world's largest EBAM 3D titanium block printer was completed recently. If you visit the relevant topic, I can answer your questions with dozens of documents and current developments.

///

For MMU-AZM related discussions... Detail part production activities for MMU(TFX) started in 2021. The roll-out for the first prototype will take place on March 18 next year. I think Pakistan will not be a direct project partner of MMU. If it were, we should have seen some concrete steps by now. However, as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has mentioned from time to time, this project will enrich Pakistan's options in the field of many subprojects/subsystems under AZM, as well as transferring experience to the next generation projects of the Pakistani aviation industry.

 

[FuturePAF]

You haven’t answered the question why Pakistan should consider a VTOL fighter plane.



What makes you think a VTOL plane will be cheaper???

Pakistan should not get a VTOL, but China maybe developing a VTOL aircraft (J-18?) and if a conventional version of that design is made available it might be something the PAF could consider. Although considering budgets and doctrine, it looks like the PAF will stick to a twin engine 5th Gen design and will probably soldier on with 4th Gen single engine fighters.

I was just speculating considering the PAF propensity for single engine fighters over twin engine fighters.

 

[Silicon0000]

How else can we explain why the PAF keeps looking at the TFX, or for that matter wants to develop a fighter of its own.

I have been saying the J-31/35 is the practically ready, and once the PLANAF indicates it wants it, Pakistan should join the program so it can start getting ready. It would basically have the same engine class as our JF-17; which can pay off down the line if we can do license manufacturing of the engine.

It’s the only realistic platform within a reasonable timeframe and will probably have the most affordable cost to build.


Cost, so they can procure in numbers, but it was just my speculation.

considering most nations are going for a mixed 4/5th Gen fleet, the PAF will probably go for the twin engine stealth fighter and keep single engine 4th Gen fighters.

How VTOL going to be cheaper? (Keep single engine / double engine debate aside)

Also What benefits VTOL gives to Pakistan? (Any Cost/Benefits/risk analysis would be great).

 

[FuturePAF]

How VTOL going to be cheaper? (Keep single engine / double engine debate aside)

Also What benefits VTOL gives to Pakistan? (Any Cost/Benefits/risk analysis would be great).

Forget VTOL... just imagine a conventional version of the design. Basically a single engine stealth fighter.

The thought a was design like this with a WS-15 engine. A similar design has been consider by both the Swedes and the Turks. The Turks chose a twin engine design because of their requirements and the Swedes haven’t publicly revealed their next generation fighter.

Stealth may not be everything and maneuverability will still be important.

A design that could carry 4 PL-15 and 4 PL-10 internally would still be a considerably challenge to enemy forces.

The Chinese may still have the J-18 program running. So it maybe a program to keep an eye on.

Pakistan does not need a VTOL fighter, but a conventional version of this design maybe what Pakistan can afford and in numbers down the line.

More info on the J-18 at the following page:

J-18 (Jianjiji-18 Fighter aircraft 18) / F-18

The genesis of the original J-183 was in 1971, when the 601 Institute began researching a new fighter aircraft for the 1980s to replace the J-6

www.globalsecurity.org

The first quote in the following article quotes a Chinese source on the existence of single engine design

Global Naval Defense News & Navy Forces Insights

Naval news Defense : Coverage includes navy defense industry modern equipment, fleet updates, and maritime security.

www.navyrecognition.com

The benefit of one engine (really powerful engine) over two medium thrust engines, if both achieve the same total thrust will be in maintenance and logistics costs.

 

[Silicon0000]

Forget VTOL... just imagine a conventional version of the design. Basically a single engine stealth fighter.

The thought a was design like this with a WS-15 engine. A similar design has been consider by both the Swedes and the Turks. The Turks chose a twin engine design because of their requirements and the Swedes haven’t publicly revealed their next generation fighter.

Stealth may not be everything and maneuverability will still be important.

A design that could carry 4 PL-15 and 4 PL-10 internally would still be a considerably challenge to enemy forces.
View attachment 812174

The Chinese may still have the J-18 program running. So it maybe a program to keep an eye on.

Pakistan does not need a VTOL fighter, but a conventional version of this design maybe what Pakistan can afford and in numbers down the line.
View attachment 812177

More info on the J-18 at the following page:

J-18 (Jianjiji-18 Fighter aircraft 18) / F-18

The genesis of the original J-183 was in 1971, when the 601 Institute began researching a new fighter aircraft for the 1980s to replace the J-6

www.globalsecurity.org

The first quote in the following article quotes a Chinese source on the existence of single engine design

Global Naval Defense News & Navy Forces Insights

Naval news Defense : Coverage includes navy defense industry modern equipment, fleet updates, and maritime security.

www.navyrecognition.com

The benefit of one engine (really powerful engine) over two medium thrust engines, if both achieve the same total thrust will be in maintenance and logistics costs.

Your this reply is much better (Although not perfect yet) than your first comments because now you did some research on the discussion.

By the way do you really think single WS15 engine jet can carry 4 PL10 and 4 PL15? Even J20 didn't have that space being made for 2 WS15 engine.

(P.S. Assuming PAF need no new 4/4+ Gen Aircraft and need next Gen after JF-17 Block 3 and Some J10P so next one will be a 5th Gen)

 

[Pak Nationalist]

How else can we explain why the PAF keeps looking at the TFX, or for that matter wants to develop a fighter of its own.

I have been saying the J-31/35 is the practically ready, and once the PLANAF indicates it wants it, Pakistan should join the program so it can start getting ready. It would basically have the same engine class as our JF-17; which can pay off down the line if we can do license manufacturing of the engine.

It’s the only realistic platform within a reasonable timeframe and will probably have the most affordable cost to build.


Cost, so they can procure in numbers, but it was just my speculation.

considering most nations are going for a mixed 4/5th Gen fleet, the PAF will probably go for the twin engine stealth fighter and keep single engine 4th Gen fighters.

Why is this being even discussed under a thread on an indigenous effort to develop a5th Gen fighter aircraft? I mean is it not amusing that we are discussing foreign procurement prospects that include some projects that are still in embryonic stages in other countries under a thread that was made to remain abreast of the developments in our own local endeavor?

 

[Riz]

Not related to project AZM but interesting for plane lovers

 

[FuturePAF]

Why is this being even discussed under a thread on an indigenous effort to develop a5th Gen fighter aircraft? I mean is it not amusing that we are discussing foreign procurement prospects that include some projects that are still in embryonic stages in other countries under a thread that was made to remain abreast of the developments in our own local endeavor?

The current proposed design may change, and a lot of our efforts maybe on the avionics, radar, sensor integration while the air frame design could similar to the TFX, J35, or this possible single engine one.

 

[FuturePAF]

Your this reply is much better (Although not perfect yet) than your first comments because now you did some research on the discussion.

By the way do you really think single WS15 engine jet can carry 4 PL10 and 4 PL15? Even J20 didn't have that space being made for 2 WS15 engine.

(P.S. Assuming PAF need no new 4/4+ Gen Aircraft and need next Gen after JF-17 Block 3 and Some J10P so next one will be a 5th Gen)

The FS2020 design from SAAB shows 4 BVR and 2 WVR missiles. So perhaps 4 WVR missiles is a stretch. It is a design powered by a 170 kn engine.

Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020

Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020

defence.pk

Also the SAAB design closes closest to the current proposed Project AZM design, but in single engine form.

Most western nations, including the US, is going for a majority F-35 fleet for their frontline fighters; a single engine Stealth fighter. The recent Thailand sale showed the prices has been brought down to under $80 Million, which can define the market and have implications for the commercial prospects of Project AZM down the line.

But in the end, the PAF will almost certainly pick a design that is at least similar to the designs used by either China or Turkey, because 5th Gen fighters are very hard to design and build. So it will come down to what is available from these two countries. In the end the design maybe similar to the J-35 and this post will be for naught, but I thought this might be a design to consider especially if it turns out China may have a similar design in the works.

Now that the PAF is acquiring the J-10, we will get to see first hand the performance of higher thrust Chinese engines (WS-10B) and that (along with data on the medium thrust RD-93) will give good data towards Project AZM.

 

[Sayfullah]

VTOL aircraft could be used by our navy. Our navy is rapidly expanding and is going to have many major ships. They could possibly make or buy a light carrier similar to what Turkey is making and they can have VTOL stealth fighters on it. Looking at how our navy is growing I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a light carrier.