Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

"A" is the closest one to what we saw on the tail of PAF C-130 during air tattoo show but with canards. However, a documentary somehow suggested without canards YF-23.

Probably they have selected the design but we don't know which one from these.
But after all good development.keep it going. someday we will get our own fighter.In sha Allah

 

[JamD]

"A" is the closest one to what we saw on the tail of PAF C-130 during air tattoo show but with canards. However, a documentary somehow suggested without canards YF-23.

A and C are the main contenders. However, I won't hold my breath for Azm's NGFA becoming a real thing.

 

[DJ_Viper]

B is looking very much like Russian PAK-FA...
...not that the Russians are involved...
...but if that is selected by chance...and somehow comes to fruition...it would be great fun to watch bcuz ironically...Indians were supposed to have something like that in their arsenal

My personal favorite is still the A concept...
...before Azm NGF was even an idea...YF23 was(and still is) one of my favorite jets. Seeing that design in PAF(if it ever materializes) would be amazing

Indians are building their own stealth air crafts. With their economy at now number 3 and stock market at number 3 by 2024, they don't need Russian tech as due to heavy local funding, they can design AMCA that way. I personally wouldn't venture out to Pak-Fa for the PAF. I think the Chinese J-20 is a much better option than Pak Fa or FC-31 future versions, to be locally produced with ToT.

YF-23 is a beast and extremely expensive to maintain. It is much larger area to cover with RAM and other materials to hide it. Which would increase the hourly cost exponentially high. If I was in Pakistan's shoes, I'd have been testing two JF-17 Block II air frames with RAM and Composite materials as prototypes and would've modified that air frame to look stealthy. This way, you'd R&D what you own and would get a head start and build a talent pool internally to adapt future work easily vs. getting trained on these things 5 years from now. When the world would move on to 6th gen jets.

Make no mistake, with QUAD, AUKUS, etc, it's very clear the US would provide sensitive tech to it's close allies. So India would get the -35. Pakistan should already be in R&D like Turkey is on TFX!

 

[DJ_Viper]

I can see "B" being a future evolution of the JF-17 (or JF-18 then) becoming the Stealth platform. And "D" an evolution of J-10C air frame. Both are highly do-able.

You got to start somewhere. Without prior R&D done on JFT air frames, the expertise would have to either be brought in, or this work starts from scratch. Which is why 2/3 out of the 4 designs are rather stealthy examples with much reduced RCS and RAMs, than true stealth aircrafts.

Btw, I don't see A&C working out for the PAF. Let's see how it goes.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

However, I won't hold my breath for Azm's NGFA becoming a real thing.

Why sir? If they are working, they will get it.

One question: why they don't want any chinese help in NGFA? Their help can lead us to success in comparitively short time.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

This may be in our inventory one day,China's new single-engine stealth fighter.

 

[The Eagle]

A and C are the main contenders. However, I won't hold my breath for Azm's NGFA becoming a real thing.

If I am not mistaking, it was ACM Retd. Sohail Aman saying that AZM NGF has passed first phase of conceptional design. One wonders that how much would have been progressed since then (2018). Furthermore, if it is the study on AZM NGF as you shared, I think it has been done long ago or at-least 3 years passed.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

If I am not mistaking, it was ACM Retd. Sohail Aman saying that AZM NGF has passed first phase of conceptional design. One wonders that how much would have been progressed since then (2018). Furthermore, if it is the study on AZM NGF as you shared, I think it has been done long ago or at-least 3 years passed.

Sir !
ACM Sohail Aman sb said in his interview that we set the goal to achieve NGFA in 15 years.so if plans don't change we can achieve our azm fighter by 2035 .

 

[The Eagle]

Sir !
ACM Sohail Aman sb said in his interview that we set the goal to achieve NGFA in 15 years.so if plans don't change we can achieve our azm fighter by 2035 .

I will still keep a flexible end date with minimum 5 years difference. Let's hope for the best.

 

[JamD]

Why sir? If they are working, they will get it.

One question: why they don't want any chinese help in NGFA? Their help can lead us to success in comparitively short time.

I am not holding my breath because the goals are ambitious and I do not see the same amount of ambitious and grand work on the ground. Of course that's just my reading of it.

Regarding the Chinese, I doubt anyone can question their technological ability. The real question is are they interested in developing fighter after fighter for you specifically when they have their own line of aircraft that they can sell? I wouldn't if I were the Chinese. Again this is my opinion and I could be horribly wrong.

If I am not mistaking, it was ACM Retd. Sohail Aman saying that AZM NGF has passed first phase of conceptional design. One wonders that how much would have been progressed since then (2018). Furthermore, if it is the study on AZM NGF as you shared, I think it has been done long ago or at-least 3 years passed.

Couple of things:
1. Conceptual design is a very rough design (I've written here before about it). And there can be many conceptual design cycles. So a conceptual design cycle being done in 2018 doesnt really mean the design is done. It just means they started.
2. The paper I posted is also just a bunch of conceptual designs - a study to figure out the basic configuration. It's from 2020 so the work was done in 2019 probably.
3. As of June 2021 there was internal debate on whether to go for A or C. This is the most damming piece of news that you'll need to take on face value from me because I can't give a source.
4. Also as of June 2021 they had done a lot of CFD studies (as you can see a lot of CFD PAF guys) but nothing more than that. That is there had been no wind tunnel tests by then.
5. AvRID is seeking outside help because of all of the above now.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

I am not holding my breath because the goals are ambitious and I do not see the same amount of ambitious and grand work on the

Let them first design and freeze the real design.After that they will start working on industrial capabilities to build the NGFA of course with foreign help.

Regarding the Chinese, I doubt anyone can question their technological ability. The real question is are they interested in developing fighter after fighter for you specifically when they have their own line of aircraft that they can sell? I wouldn't if I were the Chinese. Again this is my opinion and I could be horribly wrong.

Bhai chinese help can be attained after we finish what we can do.Chinese firms can help us in development of certain technologies not whole fighter jet. of course they will take money from us.thats how business runs.

 

[JamD]

Let them first design and freeze the real design.After that they will start working on industrial capabilities to build the NGFA of course with foreign help.

Sure, valid opinion.

Bhai chinese help can be attained after we finish what we can do.Chinese firms can help us in development of certain technologies not whole fighter jet. of course they will take money from us.thats how business runs.

Unfortunately, Pakistan is aiming to grab exactly the same market that China is aiming for - the low-cost mid-tier-tech market. So the only reason China would share "certain technologies" with us would be if our product was bound to beat the Chinese product and they could either join us or lose out. Like the Russians agreed to selling the RD93's for the JF-17 instead of pushing their Mig29. THAT is how business works. What you are describing is a charity. What you are willing to pay is the cost of importing technologies, but definitely not the price.

 

[Moon]

This may be in our inventory one day,China's new single-engine stealth fighter.

View attachment 779820
View attachment 779821

It's a hoax, the original designs are off of a British company called Meggit, which apparently makes aircraft braking systems.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sure, valid opinion.


Unfortunately, Pakistan is aiming to grab exactly the same market that China is aiming for - the low-cost mid-tier-tech market. So the only reason China would share "certain technologies" with us would be if our product was bound to beat the Chinese product and they could either join us or lose out. Like the Russians agreed to selling the RD93's for the JF-17 instead of pushing their Mig29. THAT is how business works. What you are describing is a charity. What you are willing to pay is the cost of importing technologies, but definitely not the price.

This is why working with Turkey makes sense. The Turks actually have a roadblock they need to solve -- i.e., generating enough economies of scale and lower production costs. Pakistan can factor into both aspects through a sizable PAF purchase and the use of our domestic talent base. Sure, we may not have the capacity to do the most advanced work right now, but there are a lot of subsystems within a fighter aircraft that need testing, validation, iteration, etc that we can support. Offloading this work could either help Turkey reduce costs or free up its more experienced engineers and scientists for more advanced work.

However, the main issue with Turkey is high-risk and high-cost. But we Pakistanis can't expect high-reward without putting in the legwork. We get exactly what we pay for, for better or worse.

 

[JamD]

This is why working with Turkey makes sense. The Turks actually have a roadblock they need to solve -- i.e., generating enough economies of scale and lower production costs. Pakistan can factor into both aspects through a sizable PAF purchase and the use of our domestic talent base. Sure, we may not have the capacity to do the most advanced work right now, but there are a lot of subsystems within a fighter aircraft that need testing, validation, iteration, etc that we can support. Offloading this work could either help Turkey reduce costs or free up its more experienced engineers and scientists for more advanced work.

However, the main issue with Turkey is high-risk and high-cost. But we Pakistanis can't expect high-reward without putting in the legwork. We get exactly what we pay for, for better or worse.

Yeah I was about to write about Turkey too. I think the second point you give is more important as to why they are willing to work with Pakistan: the risk. They know they have a lot of risk, and if they can get a partner on board they can divide that risk by doing all of the things that you listed.

For comparison, for China the risks probably go up by involving Pakistan in an NGFA program.

Collaboration on an NGFA is like a marriage. In this analogy Pakistan is lower-middle class, Turkey is upper-middle class, China is a millionaire, and the US is a multi-billionaire lol.