Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[VCheng]

The only consortium interested (Turkey) wants Pakistan for economies-of-scale (i.e., a healthy PAF order). In fact, they don't have a reason to let Pakistan in except that this is a high-risk project and that (for the time being) Turkey is okay with being nice. However, the accommodating approach slipped from where it was in 2016 due to Pakistan's reluctance to join when the TFX was at its riskiest and most tentative. The more we wait, the less we'll get.

As long as Pakistan has the resources to participate and acquire the results in the volumes needed to make it viable, of course.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You're a policy guy so you're thinking ahead. Good plan. Now if only we can get the right people to listen.

Folks only listen to policy guys when they need a goon to blame for harsh corrective measures after the fact (caused by not listening to policy guys), e.g., mandatory vax, austerity, and stuff like that. The only places where policy guys get ahead IMHO are China, Japan, South Korea, Singapore and, increasingly, the Philippines and Indonesia. UAE's top families are all policy guys/gals, so they're not technically even listening, just forcing people to do stuff their way.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

@JamD,@bilal khan Quwa
Why many PAC brochures have mentioned that AESA radar will be used for UCAVs also?
Has any other country done this?
Here we are struggling with incorporating aesa into JF 17 due to power issues.
How can a UCAV engine provide so much power to such a radar?

And one thing more why AvRID working on supersonic missile as probably it was a NEScOM project?

 

[JamD]

@JamD,@bilal khan Quwa
Why many PAC brochures have mentioned that AESA radar will be used for UCAVs also?
Has any other country done this?
Here we are struggling with incorporating aesa into JF 17 due to power issues.
How can a UCAV engine provide so much power to such a radar?

And one thing more why AvRID working on supersonic missile as probably it was a NEScOM project?

Great questions that I don't know the answers to.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Great questions that I don't know the answers to.

I think you will know this
Will AWC continue to work on Shahpar series UAV?
You once said its a mature design completely indigenous,so flight control systems, artificial intelligence type stuff developed for these UAVs will help them on further improving Raad series of missiles.will not it?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@JamD,@bilal khan Quwa
Why many PAC brochures have mentioned that AESA radar will be used for UCAVs also?
Has any other country done this?
Here we are struggling with incorporating aesa into JF 17 due to power issues.
How can a UCAV engine provide so much power to such a radar?

And one thing more why AvRID working on supersonic missile as probably it was a NEScOM project?

It depends on the AESA radar. There can be small applications, such as miniature SAR/GMTI using AESA TRMs, for example. Of course, you're not going to get the same range or level of capabilities with such a small radar. It's likely for surveillance. But a fighter radar has to do much more, e.g., targeting.

PICOSAR

www.leonardocompany.com

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

It depends on the AESA radar. There can be small applications, such as miniature SAR/GMTI using AESA TRMs, for example. Of course, you're not going to get the same range or level of capabilities with such a small radar. It's likely for surveillance. But a fighter radar has to do much more, e.g., targeting.

PICOSAR

www.leonardocompany.com

So they are developing pico Sar radar also.Got it.
Now what about supersonic missile?

 

[Goenitz]

I have bumped into him in G-6 once.. however, giving out rolexes to management employees was another something AQ Khan did in front of visiting dignitaries to try and impress them so not all of his approaches impressed.

@S A L M A N.
Leaders makes you safe

What small things do

 

[CriticalThought]

Agreed.

And these smart whiz kids need to sit away from all the noise, unencumbered by any organizational biases, etc. In short, an independent analysis of our national capabilities. Call it a 'National Commission for the Analysis of Technical Capabilities' (a very Soviet sounding name) - a group of people who can look at everything that we have - the quality and content of our engineering education, skills and capabilities of our PhDs (local and those coming back from abroad), develop a national database of key individuals who have experience in these areas e.g. some university professors who have worked at NESCOM, KRL, etc, explore avenues for international collaborations, hunt for locally available laboratories and high tech equipment, analyze the capabilities of local industry (SMEs, SOEs and other private sector orgs) which may help in projects of national importance (cue NGFA, SLV, etc). All of this data can provide a true picture of our capabilities and help policymakers set realizable goals for the short, medium and long terms.

The NGFA is an umbrella project and provides an excellent opportunity to develop key infrastructure, capabilities as well as critical inputs or atleast the capability to develop them. We must be training engineers in specific focus areas which will build up capability for the future.





Jingoistic and 'compartmental-istic' tendencies will see to it that any capacity that the Erieye resurrection did build will be ultimately wasted. It was good for PR though, when presented on the Mujahideen-e-Aflak show.




Agreed. No arguments there.




I probably suffer from a 'Go big or go home' problem, hence the lofty ideals

Whatever we choose to focus on - big ideals or small, basic problems - the issue remains the same: a severe shortage of people who have the ability to zoom into grand visions and see how they will be implemented on the ground. We need strategists and tacticians, not for battle, but to catalyze change within our defence R&D sphere. Sohail Aman had a dream - good for him - what we need are people who can translate that dream into the nuts and bolts, who can draw up a solid plan for how that grand dream will be implemented on the ground in a country without basic high tech infrastructure, without govt backing of any such ventures, with extreme corruption, an extremely underdeveloped work ethic and an overall national level ethos of rent-seeking, taking shortcuts, making easy money and not going the extra mile.

With that said, I don't know how we can have people like Gene Kranz or George Mueller. But we can take some steps in that direction. I have tried to explain the details below.

Pakistan's top engineering universities (most of them) have DIRECT ties with the military establishment. What is stopping them from keeping a list of the brightest and most genius students that study there or have studied there? Sure enough, this would require some amount of active engagement, some provision of extra benefits, etc but it can be done. Conduct specially designed tests (IQ, EQ, 'engineer-like qualities ', leadership, etc - just a bunch of stuff that psychologists, educationists and some world-class researchers can come up with). Conduct multiple interview rounds - find out what these kids want in life: their vision, their attitude to life, their approach to problems, what drives them, etc etc. Weed out those who don't fit the bill at each stage.
Provide targeted financial support to the ones that are left after all of the above while they are in college and once they graduate, offer them something like a commission in the armed forces. Some would accept, some would not (write them off as investments in the youth).

In the background, use diplomacy to secure slots for these young engineers in Turkey, China and other friendly countries - the UAE and perhaps maybe Italy. Selling this idea to these countries will require some serious work by the govt. Some creative benefits plan for these engineers can be worked out in which the host countries do not have to shoulder the burden of hosting these engineers. In a few years (say 4-5), these engineers will start coming back, having worked on the JF-17 in Chengdu or on the T129 in Turkey in specific, focused areas. They will have gained very valuable experience. Once they are back, the buildings and facilities are waiting to receive them. New institutions must be set up for them, with specific mandates and assured funding and administrative autonomy. In short, these engineers must come back to provide the first generation of leaders for a nationally sanctioned program to develop next generation warfare capabilities for the armed forces - exactly how the nuclear program was managed in Bhutto's era.

Several cycles of this activity can be run, i.e. send engineers abroad every year (wherever they can get the opportunity to work on relevant areas) and have them work and study abroad for a certain number of years. Wthin a decade or so, an entire cadre of skilled personnel will have been formed.




The key problem is that Azm is essentially a PAF project, it has not been declared as a national project, like the nuclear program was. Govts are too stupid and lack capacity to understand the significance of Azm and as such, there is no political ownership. Also, since it is an internal PAF thing and lacks transparency, the PAF can not be held accountable by anyone in the case that Azm doesn't work out.

If the govt was actually overseeing and directly funding this project, then specific deliverables would have been agreed upon and specific technical targets would need to have been met at certain intervals. In this environment, the PAF would have felt the need to step up its game and find creative ways to deliver (by collaborating with private sector, etc etc). Right now, it is just another project among the multitudes of projects vying for a chunk out of the PAF's own budget and just a step away from being axed due to changing priorities or the lack of vision by any future Air Chief. Indeed, if Azm gets stuck at some point and remains so for some time then that could give a good excuse to a future CAS to quietly kill the project. This is usually what happens in Pakistan.




JF-17 was not designed and built by Pakistan. We just made a User Requirement Document and sent it to China along with some engineers who watched over the shoulders of their Chinese counterparts as the aircraft took shape. These engineers pointed out things which didn't match the requirements of the PAF and told the Chinese 'how it should be' and the Chinese went ahead and did it that way. Some engineers did take part in the actual work - software development, design, simulation, manufacturing and testing but when seen as part of the overall effort, their role comes out to be low and certainly not enough to help us in the NGFA. Besides, the JF-17 was developed nearly a generation ago - the PMO and the engineering personnel have mostly moved on.

We're not pulling stories out of the ground. We have real info, provided to respected PDF members, which shows us that Azm has a serious risk of failing because the people behind it do not have the requisite experience for it. Its that simple.





I have not heard of the Air Cdr, but have read similar things in articles written by Dr AQ Khan. He wrote that early in the 1980s, around 60-70% of the salary of each KRL employee was converted to a tax-free 'project allowance' courtesy of GIK who was a Federal Secretary and on the controlling board for KRL. AQ Khan also mentions a daily shuttle service from Kahuta to Rwp to take the children of KRL employees to their schools/colleges/universities. These may sound like very trivial things to some, but these tiny conveniences provided by an organization to its employees build up morale tremendously.

Such morale and dedication can not be built by offering a contractual position to a fresh grad by taking advantage of his desperate need to find a job after graduation.

There is only one true benchmark of capability: working product being used by end user. And so I can summarize in one sentence Pakistan's capabilities in the realm of fighter jet design and manufacturing: we manufacture fighter jets.

And the most rational and realistic plan for moving forward is to consider how this capability can be incrementally enhanced.

Rather than national commissions for time wasting, we should be actively pursuing the target of 100% manufacture of airframe.

We need to raise the question: what is Pakistan's ownership in the intellectual property of JF-17? Do we have the rights to independently enhance and modify the design? If not, why not? What can be done to get these rights?

The latest info from PAC suggests we at least have access to the 3D model in software. This should be a direct input to AvRID. Instead of designing some vague 5th gen NGFA, they should be given the task of enhancing the current iteration to Block 4. I can think of specific goals they can be given. This is how you build capability.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Do you even understand what you are suggesting for an Air Force like PAF? How on earth I will ask PAF to design fighting philosophy because this is what I am going to produce for you? Man, A Force already has the philosophy, doctrine and tactics in mind in respect to modern Warfare or future requirements based upon development and threat assessment. Then, the Force calls for an assessment of equipment which actually fits the bill and then, it's assessed whether local production will suffice or we have to go for off the shelf solution.

If you try to shove down a LCA Tejas then you very well know how the force is going to respond....whether by rejection or by merely saying yes because of national thing and nothing else. PAC will have to come with a top notch solution that a force like PAF wouldn't reject.

It is not that JF17 is a state of the art fighter. In fact, the block 1 does not even have complete FBW (it only has it in pitch axis). Even Block 3 is not expected to have complete FBW comparable to F16 as the airframe and controls are not fine tuned from the initial design stage. So, if PAF did not reject JF17, it would not reject LCA type plane which has much better configuration. It is more rational for PAF to go for a 4th gen plane like LCA rather than try to go for 5th gen ones which is beyond reach for at least 30 years

 

[Goenitz]

In the background, use diplomacy to secure slots for these young engineers in Turkey, China and other friendly countries - the UAE and perhaps maybe Italy. Selling this idea to these countries will require some serious work by the govt. Some creative benefits plan for these engineers can be worked out in which the host countries do not have to shoulder the burden of hosting these engineers. In a few years (say 4-5), these engineers will start coming back, having worked on the JF-17 in Chengdu or on the T129 in Turkey in specific, focused areas

I have argued several times that AZM must have a child project. As explained before, until we don;t have funds, we must train our engineers.
So the child project can be teaching our students languages of the country you mention for one year with one computer language and mathematics (after FSc).
Then send these students to these countries so that they can learn contemporary technology and skills. They may or may not return, but at least we would have a pool of engineers and scientists.
See this advert: All are nearly free. (fb page by Waqar Baig)

 

[Akh1112]

@JamD,@bilal khan Quwa
Why many PAC brochures have mentioned that AESA radar will be used for UCAVs also?
Has any other country done this?
Here we are struggling with incorporating aesa into JF 17 due to power issues.
How can a UCAV engine provide so much power to such a radar?

And one thing more why AvRID working on supersonic missile as probably it was a NEScOM project?

1- yes, aesa’s have and are integrated on uav’s. The Turks are fitting a fire control radar (I.e one that can cue, guide and track airborne, ground and naval targets.)

2- I don’t think we’re struggling with power, they have been integrated and are being integrated.

3- you scale it down, have a lower power array, the one pac is working on is relatively low power to begin with based off of the specifications for the individual t/r modules, then further scaling it down should be fine. Bearing in mind, the male is actually using a relatively powerful engine for its class, so there is that too. It would also probably be designed with radar installation in mind from the get go.

 

[Goku-kun]

Realigning Project Azm: Balancing Ambition and Pragmatism

PAC is seeking foreign partners for collaboration in the development of the FGFA. Serious discussions are being held with Turkish Aerospace Industries on merging the TAI TFX program

quwa.org

REALIGNING PROJECT AZM: BALANCING AMBITION AND PRAGMATISM
By Syed Aseem Ul-Islam

Author Profile: Syed Aseem Ul Islam is a Research Scholar at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, USA, specializing in adaptive and model-predictive flight control systems. He received his bachelor’s degree in aerospace engineering from the Institute of Space Technology, Islamabad, and his master’s and Ph.D. degrees in flight dynamics and control from the University of Michigan.

The flagship project of Project Azm is the development of a 5th-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). However, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has no prior experience developing a fighter jet, let alone an FGFA. The design and development of the 4th-generation JF-17 were primarily carried out in China with small design inputs from the Pakistani side.

Clearly, this limited input into the design process of the JF-17 does not provide PAC with the requisite experience or industrial base required for the design and production of an FGFA.

However, according to public statements made by the PAF, it is known that PAC is embarking on the design and development of an indigenous FGFA design.

Through publicly released videos it can be surmised that the aircraft design under consideration is a twin-engine, low-observable aircraft, similar to the Northrop YF-23. This potentially puts the Azm FGFA in the heavy-weight fighter aircraft category.


Figure 1: Azm FGFA design as seen in a promotional video.
Publicly disclosed Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) documents have shown that PAC has completed at least one cycle of the conceptual design of the FGFA.

Personnel involved with project Azm have informed the author that the design was primarily focused on CFD analysis of the airframe’s aerodynamics and flight dynamic characteristics.

Furthermore, the author has learned that PAC is now struggling with how to proceed since it does not have the requisite experience or industrial base required for moving a conceptual design into the detailed design phase, let alone producing a locally designed airframe with all its subsystems and complexities. PAC does not have the experience, human resources, or infrastructure for a task of this magnitude…

 

[The Eagle]

It is not that JF17 is a state of the art fighter. In fact, the block 1 does not even have complete FBW (it only has it in pitch axis). Even Block 3 is not expected to have complete FBW comparable to F16 as the airframe and controls are not fine tuned from the initial design stage. So, if PAF did not reject JF17, it would not reject LCA type plane which has much better configuration. It is more rational for PAF to go for a 4th gen plane like LCA rather than try to go for 5th gen ones which is beyond reach for at least 30 years

May be PAF already reached US to consider a FMS by diverting CSF & schedule or by any chance get them LCA but unfortunately, they said that a squadron of F-35 can land in Pakistan within an year but it is impossible to have an LCA Tejas in this realm, space and time. The sale is totally rejected for unlucky PAF.

 

[FuturePAF]

Realigning Project Azm: Balancing Ambition and Pragmatism

PAC is seeking foreign partners for collaboration in the development of the FGFA. Serious discussions are being held with Turkish Aerospace Industries on merging the TAI TFX program

quwa.org

REALIGNING PROJECT AZM: BALANCING AMBITION AND PRAGMATISM
By Syed Aseem Ul-Islam

Author Profile: Syed Aseem Ul Islam is a Research Scholar at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, USA, specializing in adaptive and model-predictive flight control systems. He received his bachelor’s degree in aerospace engineering from the Institute of Space Technology, Islamabad, and his master’s and Ph.D. degrees in flight dynamics and control from the University of Michigan.

The flagship project of Project Azm is the development of a 5th-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). However, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has no prior experience developing a fighter jet, let alone an FGFA. The design and development of the 4th-generation JF-17 were primarily carried out in China with small design inputs from the Pakistani side.

Clearly, this limited input into the design process of the JF-17 does not provide PAC with the requisite experience or industrial base required for the design and production of an FGFA.

However, according to public statements made by the PAF, it is known that PAC is embarking on the design and development of an indigenous FGFA design.

Through publicly released videos it can be surmised that the aircraft design under consideration is a twin-engine, low-observable aircraft, similar to the Northrop YF-23. This potentially puts the Azm FGFA in the heavy-weight fighter aircraft category.


Figure 1: Azm FGFA design as seen in a promotional video.
Publicly disclosed Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) documents have shown that PAC has completed at least one cycle of the conceptual design of the FGFA.

Personnel involved with project Azm have informed the author that the design was primarily focused on CFD analysis of the airframe’s aerodynamics and flight dynamic characteristics.

Furthermore, the author has learned that PAC is now struggling with how to proceed since it does not have the requisite experience or industrial base required for moving a conceptual design into the detailed design phase, let alone producing a locally designed airframe with all its subsystems and complexities. PAC does not have the experience, human resources, or infrastructure for a task of this magnitude…

The design work for the TFX is mostly done, if the mock-up is to be taken as the nearly final design. Why can’t Pakistan send a time to each Turkey and China and work on design parts of project AZM with each of the teams that designed parts of their respective 5th Gen jets. They would probably love to get the e chance to apply their knowledge on another program and Pakistan gets to go through the process in proven manner. The Project AZM design shares similarities with the YF-23, so Amongst countries Pakistan reach out to collaborate, they have probably studied the design well enough to help out. Once the WS-15 matures, with its higher thrust, China may switch from a four poster tail to a Pelikan tail and YF-23 style exhaust. Perhaps even ditch the canards for increased stealth if other control surfaces can help. The J-20 may evolve into the design the PAF hopes Project AZM will become.