Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[JamD]

Does Pakistan Aerospace engineers diaspora make an organization that can connect and give input to Pakistan Aerospace Industry ?

The closest thing we have to that is an organization of Pakistani aerospace, or aerospace-linked companies, called Pakistan Aerospace Council (https://pakaero.com.pk/).
So I have said this before:
Something like Azm requires across the board institutional buy-in just like we had for the nuclear program.

Something that happened with the nuclear program is that experts in various fields were sought out from all across the world and invited to work in Pakistan. That sort of thing can only happen when you have "across the board institutional buy in". So that needs to happen if we want Azm to have any chance of success.

 

[Indos]

The closest thing we have to that is an organization of Pakistani aerospace, or aerospace-linked companies, called Pakistan Aerospace Council (https://pakaero.com.pk/).
So I have said this before:
Something like Azm requires across the board institutional buy-in just like we had for the nuclear program.

Something that happened with the nuclear program is that experts in various fields were sought out from all across the world and invited to work in Pakistan. That sort of thing can only happen when you have "across the board institutional buy in". So that needs to happen if we want Azm to have any chance of success.

Nuclear program at that time become a priority for Pakistan, so I bet they give good amount of salary and fix employment to the people working there. Nuclear program is also not a business entity, you dont sell bomb to other country. All operation will create cost, not profit but for Pakistan is important for the survival, so the program keep continuing until Today.

For Aerospace industry, we need to see it in different angle. It should be an industry as we can sell plane to other countries. In order to be able to invite large diaspora, at least the industry should have a sustained business first. The people in the design office needs permanent job with decent salary, not yearly contract that you stated previously. Usually it should be 2 years contract in the beginning then after that if the work is good enough they should become permanent workers.

If the leader is Air Force officer, their focus will be making product that can satisfy Air Force. In Indonesia case we now try to make money first, ambitious program can be set if there is government full backing. This is why we develop N 219 where Habibie call it as Toy plane. Despite not really sophisticated, the plane has good market domestically and internationally and the most important thing is cheap enough to develop and will give design experience to younger engineers who are just entering the company in the middle of 2000's.

 

[Falcon26]

Nuclear program at that time become a priority for Pakistan, so I bet they give good amount of salary and fix employment to the people working there. Nuclear program is also not a business entity, you dont sell bomb to other country. All operation will create cost, not profit but for Pakistan is important for the survival, so the program keep continuing until Today.

For Aerospace industry, we need to see it in different angle. It should be an industry as we can sell plane to other countries. In order to be able to invite large diaspora, at least the industry should have a sustained business first. The people in the design office needs permanent job with decent salary, not yearly contract that you stated previously. Usually it should be 2 years contract in the beginning then after that if the work is good enough they should become permanent workers.

If the leader is Air Force officer, their focus will be making product that can satisfy Air Force. In Indonesia case we now try to make money first, ambitious program can be set if there is government full backing. This is why we develop N 219 where Habibie call it as Toy plane. Despite not really sophisticated, the plane has good market domestically and internationally and the most important thing is cheap enough to develop and will give design experience to younger engineers who are just entering the company in early 2000.

I have visited your country shortly before COVID-19 and was able to visit some of your civilians factories and industries. I was thoroughly impressed with the work ethic, culture and future-oriented nature of the people.

I believe Indonesia is a country to watch out for the next decade. Both Indonesia and Turkey are making critical civilian and defense technology investments that are already yielding results. Pakistan will be smart to emulate them.

 

[Akh1112]

Point well taken. However, I will maintain that you can and should hire more PhDs, especially since they are becoming increasingly numerous - more and more people are getting PhDs.




Actually, in the R&D departments they are hired primarily if they have PhDs. Their high-tech research side is almost all PhDs. I know this because I have friends at Raytheon, LockMart, GE, and Boeing. These companies have dedicated research centers which are primarily staffed by PhDs. They have masters and undergrads for grunt work in research (like doing lots of CFD). I also know this because I have gone through their hiring process and know their requirements and work environment intimately.




Don't even get me started on the quality of Pakistani PhDs. That deserves its own thread/rant lol. I agree that our PhDs are marginally better than our undergrads and suffer from the same issues of experience. I should've said foreign PhDs, which is what I really meant. There are many foreign PhDs that would come to AvRID and contribute if the right environment exists. I am one, and I know a couple at least.'


Funny you should say that. There have been hires at AvRID like that with negotiated packages. So that's one positive thing I've seen there.




Agreed mostly, but I will not go entirely azad chaiwala and claim degrees are no help whatsoever.




Right. We need policy level rethinks, not just fancy names and doing more of the same.

I’m not a Phd student, but rather a masters one. I’d love to come and contribute to AvRID some day, but from my perspective, there’s nothing to gain from it for me, the only motivation I’d have is patriotism and that doesn’t pay the bills. I have a lot of Pakistani aerospace engineers at my uni, I once brought up the conversation about working for firms in PK and it was rubbished off completely, with them looking at the US instead, then when I told them how I’d actually be open to working in Pak, they looked at me all weird. There’s no shortage of talent like you say, but we just don’t have any motivation to come back really

 

[JamD]

Nuclear program at that time become a priority for Pakistan, so I bet they give good amount of salary and fix employment to the people working there. Nuclear program is also not a business entity, you dont sell bomb to other country. All operation will create cost, not profit but for Pakistan is important for the survival, so the program keep continuing until Today.

For Aerospace industry, we need to see it in different angle. It should be an industry as we can sell plane to other countries. In order to be able to invite large diaspora, at least the industry should have a sustained business first. The people in the design office needs permanent job with decent salary, not yearly contract that you stated previously. Usually it should be 2 years contract in the beginning then after that if the work is good enough they should become permanent workers.

If the leader is Air Force officer, their focus will be making product that can satisfy Air Force. In Indonesia case we now try to make money first, ambitious program can be set if there is government full backing. This is why we develop N 219 where Habibie call it as Toy plane. Despite not really sophisticated, the plane has good market domestically and internationally and the most important thing is cheap enough to develop and will give design experience to younger engineers who are just entering the company in the middle of 2000's.

Actually I do see your point. With the nuclear program you could afford to invite people personally. For an entire aerospace ecosystem you need very sound policy making.

I’m not a Phd student, but rather a masters one. I’d love to come and contribute to AvRID some day, but from my perspective, there’s nothing to gain from it for me, the only motivation I’d have is patriotism and that doesn’t pay the bills. I have a lot of Pakistani aerospace engineers at my uni, I once brought up the conversation about working for firms in PK and it was rubbished off completely, with them looking at the US instead, then when I told them how I’d actually be open to working in Pak, they looked at me all weird. There’s no shortage of talent like you say, but we just don’t have any motivation to come back really

Yes that's a common sentiment that I've seen myself too. It's less about the money than people tend to think but about professional growth.

 

[Indos]

I have visited your country shortly before COVID-19 and was able to visit some of your civilians factories and industries. I was thoroughly impressed with the work ethic, culture and future-oriented nature of the people.

I believe Indonesia is a country to watch out for the next decade. Both Indonesia and Turkey are making critical civilian and defense technology investments that are already yielding results. Pakistan will be smart to emulate them.View attachment 773862

Nice you have visited Jakarta

Thank you for the complement, but Indonesia defense industry is still far from being a good model. Our R&D budget is also very low. I think Turkey is the one that is really impressive, and I see it is due to Erdogan huge support. I do hope after Jokowi term is finished, we can be more aggressive to finance our R&D development.

Talking about defense industry, Singapore also become a good example to follow. Their defense industry is state owned one but very efficient, ST Engineering practically get more business from civillian market than military one and they do have large MRO companies in Aerospace sector.

I am the one who believe that beside we need to have many private sector defense companies, we still need state owned ones since not easy to develop defense industry due to large R&D budget. Developing countries like us cannot just depend on private sectors to compete with developed world.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I’m not a Phd student, but rather a masters one. I’d love to come and contribute to AvRID some day, but from my perspective, there’s nothing to gain from it for me, the only motivation I’d have is patriotism and that doesn’t pay the bills. I have a lot of Pakistani aerospace engineers at my uni, I once brought up the conversation about working for firms in PK and it was rubbished off completely, with them looking at the US instead, then when I told them how I’d actually be open to working in Pak, they looked at me all weird. There’s no shortage of talent like you say, but we just don’t have any motivation to come back really

Actually I do see your point. With the nuclear program you could afford to invite people personally. For an entire aerospace ecosystem you need very sound policy making.

Yes that's a common sentiment that I've seen myself too. It's less about the money than people tend to think but about professional growth.

But broad institutional buy-in plus sincere and competent policy leadership will make sure you'll pay your bills too. At the height of the Carver project, the South Africans were going to engineers from all over the world with an offer: "tell us your currency of choice and the bank account you want it all wired to." Not everyone works for money, but money works for everyone.

 

[JamD]

But broad institutional buy-in plus sincere and competent policy leadership will make sure you'll pay your bills too. At the height of the Carver project, the South Africans were going to engineers from all over the world with an offer: "tell us your currency of choice and the bank account you want it all wired to." Not everyone works for money, but money works for everyone.

Right. Here's the thing. Someone who wants to work for Pakistan will be willing to come to Pakistan for not so large salaries as long as there is a solid career path: that is you will be promoted based on merit, your hard work will be appreciated, and that you will earn enough to be be comfortable. This promise of career growth is what Pakistan really struggles with.

 

[Akh1112]

But broad institutional buy-in plus sincere and competent policy leadership will make sure you'll pay your bills too. At the height of the Carver project, the South Africans were going to engineers from all over the world with an offer: "tell us your currency of choice and the bank account you want it all wired to." Not everyone works for money, but money works for everyone.

Honestly, the best outcome I see right now is if a few engineers get together and set something up. I’m sure you and @JamD are both familiar with a phd holder who left AvRID to start his own thing. That’s the sorta stuff I’m talking about, however, more defence focussed. God I’ve got a whole book of ideas and stuff I think would work for the forces so well, yet, so little motivation to do anything with them aside from dwell on what could be

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Right. Here's the thing. Someone who wants to work for Pakistan will be willing to come to Pakistan for not so large salaries as long as there is a solid career path: that is you will be promoted based on merit, your hard work will be appreciated, and that you will earn enough to be be comfortable. This promise of career growth is what Pakistan really struggles with.

Absolutely. If folks see there's sincere and capable leadership, they'll generally do whatever it takes to support the cause. Unfortunately, we don't have such leaders in Pakistan (at least at the levels where it matters). However, even India has issues, yet they somehow got past a lot of this garbage and have functioning programs -- we're totally lost and, ultimately, more inclined to talk to the Chinese or Turks. To its credit, India decided that when it comes to defence (or perhaps dealing with Pakistan), there can be no BS. Unfortunately for us, our leaders don't care either way -- they've got places (like UK, Canada, US, etc) to be and functions to attend.

 

[JamD]

Honestly, the best outcome I see right now is if a few engineers get together and set something up. I’m sure you and @JamD are both familiar with a phd holder who left AvRID to start his own thing. That’s the sorta stuff I’m talking about, however, more defence focussed. God I’ve got a whole book of ideas and stuff I think would work for the forces so well, yet, so little motivation to do anything with them aside from dwell on what could be

Right you're talking about Bilal Siddique I think. I hope he succeeds and paves the way for more of us. I keep an idea journal too. I am an optimist that someday I will get to do something on some of those ideas.

 

[Akh1112]

Right you're talking about Bilal Siddique I think. I hope he succeeds and paves the way for more of us. I keep an idea journal too. I am an optimist that someday I will get to do something on some of those ideas.

Yessir, great guy, I wish him the best of luck. Occasionally I fight the urge to share some ideas with him because I know he doesn’t really do the stuff I do, so I don’t bother. Honestly, maybe down the line, if I have some free time, I might give something like that a punt, but instead partner up with some other firm(I’ve was in some discussions with GIDS a few months ago)

 

[JamD]

Yessir, great guy, I wish him the best of luck. Occasionally I fight the urge to share some ideas with him because I know he doesn’t really do the stuff I do, so I don’t bother. Honestly, maybe down the line, if I have some free time, I might give something like that a punt, but instead partner up with some other firm(I’ve was in some discussions with GIDS a few months ago)

From what I know GIDS is the marketing arm for NESCOM. So discussion with GIDS might mean they're wasting your time since they are just a marketing arm, or you're talking to NESCOM. I hope it's the latter, extreme possibilities lol

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

From what I know GIDS is the marketing arm for NESCOM. So discussion with GIDS might mean they're wasting your time since they are just a marketing arm, or you're talking to NESCOM. I hope it's the latter, extreme possibilities lol

 

[Akh1112]

From what I know GIDS is the marketing arm for NESCOM. So discussion with GIDS might mean they're wasting your time since they are just a marketing arm, or you're talking to NESCOM. I hope it's the latter, extreme possibilities lol

it was directly with GIDS, just because it was far easier to get into contact with some higher ups vs NESCOM. It was more of a testing the waters type thing. I’m relatively new into my degree so I’m not ready yet to be able to do the sort of stuff needed, however, yeah, if this is to be a thing, I need to get in contact with the right people and see where it takes me.

next year, I’ve got a year embedded with a defence firm, I’d definitely consider dropping it if a Pakistani firm was to take me up instead, but as we know, that’s not really going to be happening. Inshallah within the next few years, I’ll give something a punt and see how it goes, if I feel it’s promising, who knows what I’ll do, however, I’m not too optimistic as of right now, especially considering my search history looks like this: