Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Mohamed Bin Tughlaq]

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You can ask these who were following the Az-Arm thread Armenia was loaded as fuk. There was an interview from an Armenian general saying they had been given secretly the best avaiable defensive systems by Russia. He was fired days after that interview. Russia has better defensive systems then all these mentioned nations. Was it true what he said or not only god knows but him getting fired immediately give it a hint of truth to it. What I said was not exactly out of line but I was paying attention

 

[CriticalThought]

You can ask these who were following the Az-Arm thread Armenia was loaded as fuk. There was an interview from an Armenian general saying they had been giving secretly the best avaiable defensive systems by Russia. He was fired days after that interview. Russia has better defensive systems then all these mentioned nations. Was it true what he said or not only god knows but him getting fired immediately give it a hint of truth to it. What I said was not exactly out of line but I paying attention closely

If you give the best equipment in the world to a poorly trained and inexperienced force, the result will be what you saw in Armenia and India. Turkey had long experience dealing with Russian technology in Syria, and that experience showed itself. China has better technology than Turkey, but its effectiveness depends on the force that wields it.

 

[SBUS-CXK]

The chinese arms have been on the market and some of them have been witnessed with not so good results except the CH4 doing fairly decent but not top notch performance either and why do you think Chinese arms are still not popular to this day because of performance issues. All the big weapon purchasers are not keen on chinese made arms??. It is not only Arab but Armenia theater amongst others which had much better defense systems then the Assad ragtag militias turkey ranover or Haftar. I won't even rule out Armenia having better defense systems then pakistan, Iran, India and perhaps even China. Just because of Armenia's size don't be deluded they got Russia's best defense systems it got easily bypassed

Yeah. After all, CH-4 has an advantage in carrying capacity. The voyage. And Beidou navigation. Turkish drones are doing well in Armenia. We can think that. Turkish weapons have reached the highest standards in Turkey. But... in the world. Turkey is far away from the world.

I don't see any independent industrial system in Turkey. Aviation Industry: fighters, bombers, transport aircraft, reconnaissance aircraft......No, Turkey doesn't have this industrial chain. You want to say that Turkey solved the problem of aerospace grade industrial materials? Don't be kidding.

for example. The J-10 can cruise the Miyako Strait. Turkey T??? Only on the stand. Then you tell me T??? Better than the J-10. This is the “Mediterranean illusion”

Of course, Turkey has done its best. But Turkey is really not in the world standard.

 

[Mohamed Bin Tughlaq]

If you give the best equipment in the world to a poorly trained and inexperienced force, the result will be what you saw in Armenia and India. Turkey had long experience dealing with Russian technology in Syria, and that experience showed itself. China has better technology than Turkey, but its effectiveness depends on the force that wields it.

China has a strong industrial base but still doesn't produce fire arms in demand today or even light weapons people don't opt for chinese made products even none-state actors or drug gang rings don't go for chinese arms whether it is light or heavy. People are normally bias towards effective stuff.

China may have combat proven stuff somewhere but it is not demonstrated as of yet and it remains mystery

for example. The J-10 can cruise the gonggu Strait. Turkey T??? Only on the stand. Then you tell me T??? Better than the J-10. This is the “Mediterranean illusion”

We can agree to disagree

 

[CriticalThought]

China has a strong industrial base but still doesn't produce fire arms in demand today or even light weapons people don't opt for chinese made products even none-state actors or drug gang rings don't go for chinese arms whether it is light or heavy. People are normally bias towards effective stuff.

China may have combat proven stuff somewhere but it is not demonstrated as of yet and it remains mystery



We can agree to disagree

That's because Western nations use their influence to pressurize wealthy nations into buying their own high end stuff. It has nothing to do with Chinese quality. Also, if drug lords and gangsters are not using Chinese weapons, it means China isn't pushing its weapons into illicit trades. That speaks volumes about Chinese integrity and says nothing about Chinese quality.

 

[Windjammer]

New Model of Project Azm Revealed.

 

[Mohamed Bin Tughlaq]

That's because Western nations use their influence to pressurize wealthy nations into buying their own high end stuff. It has nothing to do with Chinese quality. Also, if drug lords and gangsters are not using Chinese weapons, it means China isn't pushing its weapons into illicit trades. That speaks volumes about Chinese integrity and says nothing about Chinese quality.

No it has nothing to do with integrity. These drug lord buyers they are very specific on what they want since they pay big cash. It is even hard to sell them chinese arms if you are an agent. They will cite mostly bad experiences and pass the opportunity. They go for Bulgarian, Russian, American, South Korean or Romanian. Chinese arms are not doing good on the black market, in the drone market or elsewhere

 

[CriticalThought]

No it has nothing to do with integrity. These drug lord buyers they are very specific at what they want since they pay big cash. It is even hard to sell them chinese arms if you are an agent. They will cite mostly bad experiences and pass the opportunity. They go for Bulgarian, Russian, American, South Korean or Romanian

I find it disturbing that someone with such intimate knowledge of arms deals with drug lords is posting on the forum.

That said, it would be a hoot if what is passed around as Bulgarian/Russian/etc was actually made in a Chinese factory. For many products, China has three grades, from lowest to best. You get what you pay for. Don't blame Chinese technology, blame your provincial mind, or your stingy purse, or both. And what I am implying here is that those drug lords are fools for letting past experiences prejudice them in this manner. Their loss.

 

[Mohamed Bin Tughlaq]

I find it disturbing that someone with such intimate knowledge of arms deals with drug lords is posting on the forum.

That said, it would be a hoot if what is passed around as Bulgarian/Russian/etc was actually made in a Chinese factory. For many products, China has three grades, from lowest to best. You get what you pay for. Don't blame Chinese technology, blame your provincial mind, or your stingy purse, or both. And what I am implying here is that those drug lords are fools for letting past experiences prejudice them in this manner. Their loss.

Lmao. You cracked me up with that intimate knowledge part. I am not involved in arms industry at all but I read about the black market on some forums and try to understand what is going on. I don't know I guess I had alot of time on my hands at that time but all in all. We can agree to disagree here. I think China is a paper tiger and I know this is slightly over the top but it is what it is perhaps a decade or 2 I will get convinced but I am not convinced currently but you never know this opinion can change at any point down the line but they are on the right path as it stands

 

[TNT]

How many books have you read on the topic of aerodynamics, electromagnetics, radar design, semi-conductor physics, meta materials? Do you personally know any Pakistani PhDs in any of these fields? If you don't, then do as @The Eagle suggested. If you do, then make every effort to get a permanent ban, and I say good riddance.

I dont need to tell u how many books ive read but i myself am a PhD in one of those fields u mentioned. This is the reason i am aware of the ground realities of my country. I know roughly at what level we operate and have an idea of what level we need to reach to achieve our stated goals, in the given time frame. And i find it very hard to achieve in the "given time frames" with the given economic outlook. Its funny u having the name critical thought and cant handle a critical thought, what an irony.
Its a forum where everyone have an opinion, dont like an opinion? Deal with it or reply with substance.
My God fanboys get triggered so easily.

 

[Neurath]

New Model of Project Azm Revealed.

View attachment 722241

Posted this picture myself here earlier as well, people are too busy talking to each other about other countries' FGFA programs that no one seem to care. Even though this is massive, they literally revealed the design or at least what it could be.

 

[CriticalThought]

I dont need to tell u how many books ive read but i myself am a PhD in one of those fields u mentioned. This is the reason i am aware of the ground realities of my country. I know roughly at what level we operate and have an idea of what level we need to reach to achieve our stated goals, in the given time frame. And i find it very hard to achieve in the "given time frames" with the given economic outlook. Its funny u having the name critical thought and cant handle a critical thought, what an irony.
Its a forum where everyone have an opinion, dont like an opinion? Deal with it or reply with substance.
My God fanboys get triggered so easily.

Don't try to spruik yourself. You are neither a PhD nor are you aware of where Pakistan stands. A barebones prototype flying in 2025 is well within reach. The rest depends on money, but not on talent or capability. Probably the biggest challenge is sensor fusion, but it is not something beyond our abilities, Alhamdulillah. Instead of spreading gloom and doom you would be better off keeping your opinions to yourself.

 

[TNT]

Perhaps it is. But it is one heck of a useful batti.



Absolutely right. So the longer we try to make an FGFA, the better our capacity becomes. That is a very key point. We like to make fun of India for attempting the LCA as 100% indigenousand eventually ending up with a product that isn't 100% indigenous and massively delayed. Mismanagement issues aside, what we don't appreciate is that through that process India has been able to establish A LOT of the base that you are talking about and the next jets that they attempt might shock us with their success. So if this is a truck ki batti, let it be. We'll end up with an infinitely more useful thing than just an FGFA in a decade or two: an industrial and technological base. This is why I keep warning people to expect delays in Azm as a certainty. Don't be surprised if this is Pakistan's LCA (lite) moment.




Maybe it will be FC31 or TFX. The reasons for "wasting time and resources" is above. You complained about not having a base and then said we shouldn't invest in that base. I say invest in that base, which takes decades, and be patient, very very patient.

A very good argument u present. We have to climb the ladder of technology stepwise so better start now. India however had larger resources and we have limited and have to keep that in mind. The time frame also needs to be realistic as we currently lack alot of critical technology.
We need to be ready for the scenario that india may buy/develop a 5th gen before our azm is ready, so need other options as well. Maybe not commit too much resources to azm and save some money for 5th gen procurement from china/turkey.

 

[Goenitz]

@JamD @Mohamed Bin Tughlaq @CriticalThought @TNT
I think the focus should be on radar, senor fusion and home grown BVR. Stealth comes later. The sensor fusion, radar, missiles, SEAD ops, should be researched first for Dual seater and Block III. Then go for AZM project.

Engine could be of foreign origin.
I suggested and Critical too that making a small engine (even smaller than 1/3rd) is a bigger feat. As smaller engines are used in drones (like in Sky Saker H300) and cruise missile. Also, may like Tucano type aircraft.

 

[TNT]

Don't try to spruik yourself. You are neither a PhD nor are you aware of where Pakistan stands. A barebones prototype flying in 2025 is well within reach. The rest depends on money, but not on talent or capability. Probably the biggest challenge is sensor fusion, but it is not something beyond our abilities, Alhamdulillah. Instead of spreading gloom and doom you would be better off keeping your opinions to yourself.

I have no issue in u dreaming or having high hopes, it was u who quoted me. As long as my opinions are concerned, i will keep sharing them here as i deem fit and you are no one to tell me or anyone else otherwise. Maybe ur new to the concept of free speech.
Kindly dont waste mine or ur time anymore and dont derail the thread.