Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Pakistan Space Agency]

That is literally the best outcome...i.e., a 75-100% 'Made in Pakistan' high-tech fighter that will replace the most numerous fighter in our air force. This solves economies-of-scale and controls acquisition cost. It also gives us the ability to build quantity in our air power, but without compromising quality (since it'd be an unstable 5+/6-gen).

Moreover, the scope of "lightweight" will keep changing. In the 1950s, it meant F-86, and today, it's Gripen/Tejas/JF-17. The Gripen E/F -- still lightweight -- is bigger, and the Indian Tejas Mk2 is moving in that direction.

That is true but Pakistan will have a need for a committed medium-weight class in the future. Putting all eggs in one weight class doesn't sound very wise.

In my humble opinion, the JF-17 will become more and more Pakistani over time anyway and the Chinese will probably dropout at some point and by that time Pakistan should have the necessary technological infrastructure in place to build improved Blocks by itself as needed.

But Pakistan needs replacements for F-16s that can carrt larger payloads, especially the nukes and also cover the entirety of India.

At some point Pakistan will not be eye-balling India just in the Kashmir sector or the near vicinity on the other side of the international border but will need something more meaty as a deep strike deterrent.

Just my personal opinion that size matters but it would be great if a single platform like the JF-17 could fulfil all of fighter-bomber needs of the PAF.

 

[Kabotar]

That is literally the best outcome...i.e., a 75-100% 'Made in Pakistan' high-tech fighter that will replace the most numerous fighter in our air force. This solves economies-of-scale and controls acquisition cost. It also gives us the ability to build quantity in our air power, but without compromising quality (since it'd be an unstable 5+/6-gen).

Moreover, the scope of "lightweight" will keep changing. In the 1950s, it meant F-86, and today, it's Gripen/Tejas/JF-17. The Gripen E/F -- still lightweight -- is bigger, and the Indian Tejas Mk2 is moving in that direction.

Wouldn't it make more financial sense and easier to replace Thunders with something like this.

since everybody is giving there two cents I don't want to be left behind so here it goes. I think we should replace Mirages with something like J20 from mid 20s these have more range than FC31, stealth planes will force enemy to put more assets for air defence role and long range will force enemy to further split their assets to defend their shores. Then by mid 30s replace F16s with AZM.

The other option could be to bring AZM by late 20s to replace Mirages and by 2047 at 100 years anniversary of PAF roll it's 6th gen like Turkey is doing with TFX.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That is true but Pakistan will have a need for a committed medium-weight class in the future. Putting all eggs in one weight class doesn't sound very wise.

In my humble opinion, the JF-17 will become more and more Pakistani over time anyway and the Chinese will probably dropout at some point and by that time Pakistan should have the necessary technological infrastructure in place to build improved Blocks by itself as needed.

But Pakistan needs replacements for F-16s that can carrt larger payloads, especially the nukes and also cover the entirety of India.

At some point Pakistan will not be eye-balling India just in the Kashmir sector or the near vicinity on the other side of the international border but will need something more meaty as a deep strike deterrent.

Just my personal opinion that size matters but it would be great if a single platform like the JF-17 could fulfil all of fighter-bomber needs of the PAF.

Wouldn't it make more financial sense and easier to replace Thunders with something like this.

since everybody is giving there two cents I don't want to be left behind so here it goes. I think we should replace Mirages with something like J20 from mid 20s these have more range than FC31, stealth planes will force enemy to put more assets for air defence role and long range will force enemy to further split their assets to defend their shores. Then by mid 30s replace F16s with AZM.

The other option could be to bring AZM by late 20s to replace Mirages and by 2047 at 100 years anniversary of PAF roll it's 6th gen like Turkey is doing with TFX.

Well, I think one other approach is to start with the FC-31, and then gradually work to indigenize it through R&D. It can be similar to what the Chinese have been doing with the J-15/J-16 (e.g., develop your own flight control system, avionics, airframe inputs like composites, etc). So by the time you roll out the last FC-31, it would be 100% manufactured in Pakistan, and with 75% Pakistani technology.

This way, you can standardize on the one medium-weight fighter -- e.g., 326 fighters -- and then build a family of drones around them, e.g., loyal wingman, deep-strike, etc.

 

[PeacefulWar]

Well, I think one other approach is to start with the FC-31, and then gradually work to indigenize it through R&D. It can be similar to what the Chinese have been doing with the J-15/J-16 (e.g., develop your own flight control system, avionics, airframe inputs like composites, etc). So by the time you roll out the last FC-31, it would be 100% manufactured in Pakistan, and with 75% Pakistani technology.

This way, you can standardize on the one medium-weight fighter -- e.g., 326 fighters -- and then build a family of drones around them, e.g., loyal wingman, deep-strike, etc.

A very pragmatic and feasible approach IMO.

Just want to add my 2 cent regards how would China play this patient game in this hypnotical situation:
First, very likely she won't start with 5th gen fighter. Instead she will start with JF-17 for sure. She will gradually take over the project and CAC will become a consultant/mentor role eventually. More and more subsystems will be replaced slowly but surely. This process can take at least 10-20 years because it takes time to build up/upgrade an aviation around this project. Along the indigenization progress many small improvements will come out and applied to existing and new JF-17s to keep the fleet potent. Eventually, she will have a very solid aviation, maybe not fancy enough for enthusiasts. But hey from now on we can freely talk about leap-forward developments with such experienced R&D team and industry base.

My 2 cents.

 

[BRAVO_]

3 years have been gone can somebody summrize what are the project devlopments so far??? after reading discussions i am feeling j-35 will eventually turn in to project azam

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

3 years have been gone can somebody summrize what are the project devlopments so far??? after reading discussions i am feeling j-35 will eventually turn in to project azam

It's a little unclear, but the most realistic outcome is a variant of FC-31/J-35, at least for any NGFA by 2030.

 

[Falcon26]

It's a little unclear, but the most realistic outcome is a variant of FC-31/J-35, at least for any NGFA by 2030.

That’s the sane approach.

Pakistan should have taken the FC-31 body and partnered with Turkey to develop common avionics, missiles, radar and other critical subsystems. This would have provided Pakistan the requisite technological base of developing core next generation technologies at reasonable and cost effective manner. In the future, if Pakistan needed a clean sheet design, then the major technology would have already been available in-house.

Pakistan doesn’t have the resources nor the time to initiate a clean sheet design with or without Chinese support. As currently shown, Project AZM is nothing more than a vanity project.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That’s the sane approach.

Pakistan should have taken the FC-31 body and partnered with Turkey to develop common avionics, missiles, radar and other critical subsystems. This would have provided Pakistan the requisite technological base of developing core next generation technologies at reasonable and cost effective manner. In the future, if Pakistan needed a clean sheet design, then the major technology would have already been available in-house.

Pakistan doesn’t have the resources nor the time to initiate a clean sheet design with or without Chinese support. As currently shown, Project AZM is nothing more than a vanity project.

I'd be more conservative than that.

The PAF ought to just sign onto the FC-31 as-is with China managing everything from engine, airframe, radar, weapons -- everything. If we're not equipped to properly contribute, we shouldn't.

So, I would rather take whatever steps necessary to (1) keep costs under control, (2) cut out all complications, and (3) do whatever it takes to get the jet ASAP. I am even on the fence about local production. Honestly, how much will we get from China in terms of turnkey ToT? Do we want to sink overhead into a partial production infrastructure, or maybe go for an off-the-shelf purchase, but mandate a 100%+ offset that will see all that money come back to us, but in the form of targeted investments in key industries (incl. aviation)?

But in parallel to that, I would get into R&D right from scratch, and approach it as high-level as possible (but with a direction towards eventually developing a NGFA). So, we should collaborate with Turkey on the high-level R&D that'll go into each part of aircraft development, e.g., engines, electronics, etc. I would also do the exact same with China, Ukraine, South Africa, Poland, and -- wherever possible -- specific companies/universities/labs/people in the West.

I am probably wrong about this, but I feel the aerospace R&D in Japan and ROK was 'abstract' (lack of a better word) for a while right until they felt they had the ability to make a jet. Once they ascertained that capability, they decided to start their respective fighter programs in earnest. But unlike India, which had to develop the critical tech while also developing the Tejas, the Japanese and Koreans are developing their jets based on what they can actually do and implement right away. In other words, they learned the tech already.

So, let's leak on the FC-31, but spend the next 2 decades actually developing the expertise and capacity to develop our own flight control tech, unstable airframe, engines, electronics, etc.

Once our top scientists come to us and say, "we can do it..." then we can practically do whatever we want: localize the FC-31, develop a SGFA, develop loyal wingman UAVs, deep strike UAVs, LIFTs, etc.

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what will be the radar status to look out for stealth after 10/20 years down the line as we know Raptor been there already let’s say at least 20 years now if I’m not wrong so what I’m trying to understand being the main adversary next to us & it took PAF let’s say 15 years to build their in-house 5 generation will that still be viable will there be nothing in the market available by that time or in very near future to detect these 5 generations
As my understanding is by the time PAF got something in house may be we will be seeing 6 G specially USA or may be Chinese
If it’s possible for you to comment about tracking out stealth planes regarding radars
Thank you

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If it’s possible for you to comment about tracking out stealth planes regarding radars
Thank you

tbh I'd need to read up/learn on radar re: detecting 5-gen fighters before commenting.

@Armchair

I think the KFX C501 seems to represent much of what you're thinking about re: AZM (i.e., being a single-engine medium-weight fighter with WS-10). IIRC the C501's design team had envisioned iterating on the T-50/FA-50 than starting completely from scratch. If you're right, this is what AZM would look like.

@JamD You might find this interesting all the same. Based on what you know, what would Pakistan need to master in-house to pull-off a design like the above if it relied on a foreign engine and major design partner.

 

[Signalian]

tbh I'd need to read up/learn on radar re: detecting 5-gen fighters before commenting.

 

[Kabotar]

I was referring to Thunder replacement in late 40s or early 50s.

 

[JamD]

tbh I'd need to read up/learn on radar re: detecting 5-gen fighters before commenting.

@Armchair

I think the KFX C501 seems to represent much of what you're thinking about re: AZM (i.e., being a single-engine medium-weight fighter with WS-10). IIRC the C501's design team had envisioned iterating on the T-50/FA-50 than starting completely from scratch. If you're right, this is what AZM would look like.

@JamD You might find this interesting all the same. Based on what you know, what would Pakistan need to master in-house to pull-off a design like the above if it relied on a foreign engine and major design partner.

Whatever I've said before would stand. Our holes are in core technologies which preclude advanced tech. FCS, composites, sensor fusion, AESA radars etc are all 4.5 gen things, not even 5th gen things; things we have little or no mastery over.

That being said, this route might cost less and make it faster to production since the specs can be met with (relatively) simpler solutions.

 

[JamD]

_

One of those mentions pofacets. Right out of undergrad I had josh and delusion of knowing better than everyone and wrote up an extensive document for AWC that argued that they should pursue a flying-wing UAV instead of the shahpar lol. I called my design "Surkhab kay par" as a joke lol. Here's an RCS comparison for both (don't remember for what frequency):

Still better than UAS-G's UCAV lol:

A bad model of Shahpar:

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Whatever I've said before would stand. Our holes are in core technologies which preclude advanced tech. FCS, composites, sensor fusion, AESA radars etc are all 4.5 gen things, not even 5th gen things; things we have little or no mastery over.

That being said, this route might cost less and make it faster to production since the specs can be met with (relatively) simpler solutions.

There shouldn't be much of an issue getting an AESA radar, EO/IR sensors, sensor fusion work, etc off-the-shelf (as they're all available for sale if you buy it as a package). The biggest hurdle is the FCS, which you just can't buy off-the-shelf, at least with the expectation of getting control over it. If India can't do it, neither we can we...so it's likely the main constraint to any NGFA development, simple or otherwise.