Project-17A vs Talwar-class Frigates- IN should go for 3 more P-17A over Russian origin Talwar-class

[Abingdonboy]

I agree with you but surely there can be a middle solution to this problem like leasing those frigates

The IN would, rightly, not be interested in leasing any such assets .

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

However we increase the order of P17A frigates ( which will be done) we won't be getting the first before 2022. Till that time we will retire 3 frigates and induct 1 AC. For them we need some quick action. And this is where Talwar class followons fit perfect.

 

[he-man]

Best option would be this

But russians are finding it difficult to build,,,so it will lead to delays.

70km is not long range, at best Medium range. When you have supersonic missiles coming at your from 300km+, it is easy to see why a full umbrella protection is needed.....so that the enemy jets don't get the chance to acquire a lock in the first place.

Yup,no doubt 70 km in not enough but the radar complex of lrsam is one of the best in the business.

Still its a medium range missile all right,but its tested against brahmos,it should count for something.

 

[Abingdonboy]

However we increase the order of P17A frigates ( which will be done) we won't be getting the first before 2022. Till that time we will retire 3 frigates and induct 1 AC. For them we need some quick action. And this is where Talwar class followons fit perfect.

Well said.

 

[Donatello]

Except that this LR-SAM (Barak-8) has been specifically designed to intercept the world's most advanced (and fastest) AShM (the Bhramos/Yakhont) .


This however is a contradiction in itself as the Kolkata class carries the BrahMos as well as the Barak-8. This means that the Indian Navy deploys the poison and the antidote on the same platform.
Explained – Can The US Navy Shoot Down The Deadly BrahMos Missile? | Defencyclopedia

World's most advanced?
What's next label you gonna use? India is the world's most advanced nation? Wait it already is...

 

[INDIAISM]

The price tag is going to be crucial - back in 2013 after the induction of INS Trikand when the negotiations for three more Talwar-class frigates started - the price was $3 billion for 3 more frigates that is $1 billion each (which of course now will be more than that) - in comparison, P-17A will cost US$1.1 billion each - more or less both will eventually come with the same price tag when the deal is struck. Isn't it possible that we put the Shivalik-class back in production? It's already a matured platform outperforming Talwar-class and will save both money and time if we do so?

Either way P-17A's orders should be increased - wonder why they ordered only three Shivalik-class when the requirement even today is much more than that.

@Agent_47

I doubt that...I think in present circumstances India can get better deal then 2013

Reasons

1}In 2013 Russian Ruble was hovering around 30 rubble per $ today it is hovering around 56 to 60 per $

2}Today Raw material cost is almost 30% to 40% (metal) lower then 2013...

3} Without Ukrainian engine these frigate are nothing more then scrap for Russian Navy...

 

[MilSpec]

I concur with this notion.

I don't, P17A built by GRSE and Mazgoan are compltely booked till 2017, there is no room to build another 3 and expect deliveries before 2026, even if keel is laid in 2019 for the final ship. As far as P17 Shivalik is concerned, no doubt the ships is pretty good, but after building the ship it has to wait for more than a year for the weapons package integration, whereas, Talwar class gets get's it's weapons package retrofit within 3 months.

And what indigenous weapons is Shukla speaking about, LRSAM- Israel, Brahmos same as talwar, RBU- same as russia, EW suite can be retrofitted in Yantar, we have done that for Talwar before.and most here dont know the tremendous advantage Shtil brings to the table.

We are already operating 6 of these, adding three will ease training and logistics. as far as P17A is concerned already seven ships with option for three follow on is on the table.

 

[kurup]

An ideal solution but the ONLY reason the Talwar option is being looked at is because of the IN's desire for quicker induction. The P-17As will be beasts no doubt about that but the first one isn't set to enter service for 7 years (2022), can the IN really allow for a 9 year gap between frigate inductions (the last Talwar class entered service in 2013)? The Talwars/modified Talwars will be available off the shelf and could be in service within 4 years.


Buying a few Talwars from Russia whilst the P-17A program is getting up to speed seems like a pretty sensible and pragmatic decision. Hopefully the P-17A orders will increase to 12-15- by the time the P-17As are being inducted the IN will be inducting them at a rate of 1 a year thanks to parallel production and it makes sense to take advantage of this to the fullest degree possible.

Why not build P17 instead ??

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why not build P17 instead ??

The problem is there is little capacity in the shipyards capable of making the P-17 between now and 2022 (when the P-17As will start to be inducted) and the whole point is bridging the gap between now (2015) and the induction of the P-17As (2022 onwards). As such going for 3 more P-17s now would likely yield almost no benefit over getting 1-2 (with 1-2 being built in India potentially) upgraded Talwars built in Yanter (Russia).

It is certainly a puzzle the IN needs to come up with a solution for as soon as possible but there are no easy options- 3 Talwars being bought off the shelf with certain upgrades would probably be the simplest solution.

 

[sathya]

It looks like reliance is allying with Russia ship sub business and will probably follow Chinese model of copy pasting

While some otheR companies will follow western philosophy ..

 

[$@rJen]

An ideal solution but the ONLY reason the Talwar option is being looked at is because of the IN's desire for quicker induction. The P-17As will be beasts no doubt about that but the first one isn't set to enter service for 7 years (2022), can the IN really allow for a 9 year gap between frigate inductions (the last Talwar class entered service in 2013)? The Talwars/modified Talwars will be available off the shelf and could be in service within 4 years.


Buying a few Talwars from Russia whilst the P-17A program is getting up to speed seems like a pretty sensible and pragmatic decision. Hopefully the P-17A orders will increase to 12-15- by the time the P-17As are being inducted the IN will be inducting them at a rate of 1 a year thanks to parallel production and it makes sense to take advantage of this to the fullest degree possible.

Dude but why not build more of Shivalik class frigates that's better than the russian ones and can be build in our yards right??!!

 

[acetophenol]

Shivaliks are our on designs, we can modify to the way we want. So its natural for the Navy to spend time in modifying its own designs (Read Shiwaliks) and ask for more customized designs based on their requirements and experiences. This is a continuous process, Shiwaliks leading to Kolkata and so own.

Talwars are good designs, which can serve to the requirements of the Navy. Without modifications or further improvements, Talwars can be acquired in large numbers to give us quick numerical advantage. Besides, with the issues Russia has now, its only logical for them to not to put all their eggs in one basket. Manufacturing hubs like India for their technology will be a good option for Russia to consider.

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

Dude but why not build more of Shivalik class frigates that's better than the russian ones and can be build in our yards right??!!

Not sure but I doubt the capability of these private shipyards like L&T and Pipavav to independently roll out such sophisticated frigates like P-17A or even P-17 for that matter - All that they have been building up till now are patrol boats including fast attack crafts and some light OPV's for ICG and IN.

The biggest order till date bagged by L&T stands at $230 million to design and build seven offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) for the Indian Coast Guard - whereas that of Pipavav stands at $410 million to built five offshore patrol vessels for the Indian Navy.

Big deals yet to be struck by these private shipyards.

 

[INDIAISM]

L&T

Not sure but I doubt the capability of these private shipyards like L&T and Pipavav to independently roll out such sophisticated frigates like P-17A or even P-17 for that matter - All that they have been building up till now are patrol boats including fast attack crafts and some light OPV's for ICG and IN.

The biggest order till date bagged by L&T stands at $230 million to design and build seven offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) for the Indian Coast Guard - whereas that of Pipavav stands at $410 million to built five offshore patrol vessels for the Indian Navy.

Big deals yet to be struck by these private shipyards.

L&T wasvthe one who build the hull of our Nuc Sub...

| Business Standard Mobile Website

so I don't know about the capability of Pipavav but L&T definatly has the capability to built such sophisticated ships....

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Project-17 is the Naval bureau's own design, why dont they think about teaming up with likes of L&T? You can do what you please with your own IP. And L&T is the engineering powerhouse of India, with even the hull of Arihant being produce by them.

They have the capacity to deliver frigates.

Either way, both will be made in India, Talwars by Reliance.