Project-17A vs Talwar-class Frigates- IN should go for 3 more P-17A over Russian origin Talwar-class

[Chanakya's_Chant]

The ghost of Gorshkov

If private sector is to build three more frigates, why the Talwar-class? Just boost the Project 17-A order​

The Indian Navy, clearly, has an appetite for punishment. One might imagine that the nightmarish experience of refurbishing the Gorshkov - now the aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya - in a Russian shipyard would be enough to forestall any more such warship building projects. But no! Although the Gorshkov took more than twice the contracted time (118 months instead of 52 months) and almost thrice the contracted cost ($2.3 billion instead of $947 million), the navy now wants to involve itself in building three Russian Talwar-class frigates.

Frigates are versatile, multi-role warships of 4,000-6,000 tonnes that can deal with threats from the air (fighters and missiles), surface (missiles and guns) and underwater (submarines). The navy is 61 vessels short of its planned strength of 198 warships and this shortfall is most keenly felt in capital warships like frigates, the business end of any navy, with their ability to operate independently in the face of multi-dimensional threats. But there are capacity limitations to building more frigates in India: our yards that can do so are already stretched to capacity. Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) have orders for building seven Project-17A frigates in India. So the navy has proposed that Yantar Shipyard, located in Kaliningrad, Russia, should tie up with an Indian private sector shipyard to build three Talwar-class frigates in India, to add to six such frigates procured from Russia earlier.

To be sure, the navy's experience with the Talwar-class (Russian name: Krivak-III; or Project 1135.6) has been more reassuring than building the Gorshkov. The six Talwar-class warships were delivered at the price contracted and with less than a year of delay. The first tranche of three frigates (INS Talwar, Trishul and Tabar) was contracted in 1997 for about one billion dollars and delivered between 2003-04. The second tranche of three (INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand) was contracted in 2006 and delivered in 2012-13 for a slightly higher price.

But the proposed third tranche has a less than wholesome odour, and not just because they are at least twice the cost. In December, Russian President Vladimir Putin urged Prime Minister Narendra Modi to take three Talwar-class frigates off Russia's hands for three entirely self-serving reasons. First, Yantar shipyard has six frigates languishing in various stages of build, but the Russian Navy wants just three. Yantar began building six because Moscow was certain it could persuade perpetual-buyer India of the need for another three frigates. Second, the frigates that languish in Yantar have no power plants (engines). Ukraine has refused to supply Russia the Zoryagas turbines that power earlier Talwar-class frigates, and which were contracted for this batch too. Ukraine's refusal comes after Moscow's military adventure in Ukraine and its annexation of the Crimea. Squeezing another power plant into the Talwar-class hulls would involve major re-engineering. India, on the other hand, with strong defence ties with Ukraine, could obtain Zorya turbines without much problem. Thirdly, even though Moscow's proposal has been cloaked in the rhetoric of "Make in India", the Talwar-class features mainly Russian systems, sensors and weapons, which cannot be changed without adversely impacting on delivery time lines.

To select an Indian partner shipyard, Yantar experts have toured, and approved, at least three Indian shipyards - Larsen & Toubro's new Katupalli shipyard, near Ennore; Pipavav Shipyard in Gujarat, recently taken over by Anil Ambani's Reliance Infrastructure; and Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL). It is unclear whether the build plan involves transporting three partly built hulls from Russia to India and finishing the construction here; or whether it is planned to build three frigates in India, ground-up. Either way, the ghost of Gorshkov looms over this hare-brained project.

There is no convincing reason for New Delhi to contemplate a government-to-government proposal with Moscow, in which competitive tendering is abandoned, and a foreign design adopted, to build the Talwar class in India. Instead, the navy, with its proud tradition of developing and building Indian-designed-and-built frigates, should insist on another three Project 17-A frigates, to add to the seven that are slated to start construction shortly.

Even the predecessors of Project 17-A - the three 5,600-tonne Shivalik-class frigates built under Project 17 - are regarded as superior to the Talwar-class. Project 17-A will obviously be another notch ahead. Like the Shivalik-class, Project 17-A frigates would embark two medium helicopters, greatly enhancing their anti-submarine and airborne early warning capability. Much of the weaponry that will equip Project 17-A frigates is indigenously built, including rocket launchers, Brahmos cruise missiles and the world-class Long-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM). Vitally, the indigenous frigates would have secure Indian-designed electronic warfare (EW) systems and a tested indigenous "combat management system", the computer brain that controls the frigate's arsenal in battle. The levels of "Make in India" achievable in Project 17-A could never be matched whilst building the Talwar-class in India. Furthermore, adding another three frigates to the seven already being built under Project 17-A would enhance economies of scale, reducing per-unit price of the frigate. And, with the Directorate General of Naval Design having already finalised much of Project 17-A's design, build time would be greatly reduced, eroding one of the key arguments presented to justify buying the Talwar-class.

Instead of the bizarre solution of Russia deciding which Indian shipyard should build naval frigates, this should be decided through competitive tendering between Pipavav, L&T and other eligible Indian shipyards. The defence ministry must evaluate proposals, with greater indigenisation being a key parameter for selection, along with a company's track record and warship construction infrastructure. The contract should include exemplary penal clauses that impose stiff monetary penalties on delays and quality shortfalls, as well as cancellation of defence production licences for inordinate delays. The defence ministry must also promote scale manufacture by coordinating common sub-vendors for all three shipyards that would simultaneously build Project 17-A - MDL (four ships), GRSE (three ships) and the selected private shipyard (three ships). This would also be an opportunity for a comparative evaluation of three shipyards to deliver on time, on cost and as per quality standards.

There is no war looming that forces the defence ministry into the messy business of hybrid solutions - Russian hulls, Indian build, Russian fitments, sensors and weapons. If the ministry has a pressing compulsion, it is to demonstrate that it can, coherently and logically weave together the numerous threads of warship building into a strong fabric. Its decision on these three warships would be an important signal of intent.

Source:- Broadsword: The ghost of Gorshkov

 

[Skull and Bones]

I concur with this notion.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The ghost of Gorshkov

If private sector is to build three more frigates, why the Talwar-class? Just boost the Project 17-A order​

The Indian Navy, clearly, has an appetite for punishment. One might imagine that the nightmarish experience of refurbishing the Gorshkov - now the aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya - in a Russian shipyard would be enough to forestall any more such warship building projects. But no! Although the Gorshkov took more than twice the contracted time (118 months instead of 52 months) and almost thrice the contracted cost ($2.3 billion instead of $947 million), the navy now wants to involve itself in building three Russian Talwar-class frigates.

Frigates are versatile, multi-role warships of 4,000-6,000 tonnes that can deal with threats from the air (fighters and missiles), surface (missiles and guns) and underwater (submarines). The navy is 61 vessels short of its planned strength of 198 warships and this shortfall is most keenly felt in capital warships like frigates, the business end of any navy, with their ability to operate independently in the face of multi-dimensional threats. But there are capacity limitations to building more frigates in India: our yards that can do so are already stretched to capacity. Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) have orders for building seven Project-17A frigates in India. So the navy has proposed that Yantar Shipyard, located in Kaliningrad, Russia, should tie up with an Indian private sector shipyard to build three Talwar-class frigates in India, to add to six such frigates procured from Russia earlier.

To be sure, the navy's experience with the Talwar-class (Russian name: Krivak-III; or Project 1135.6) has been more reassuring than building the Gorshkov. The six Talwar-class warships were delivered at the price contracted and with less than a year of delay. The first tranche of three frigates (INS Talwar, Trishul and Tabar) was contracted in 1997 for about one billion dollars and delivered between 2003-04. The second tranche of three (INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand) was contracted in 2006 and delivered in 2012-13 for a slightly higher price.

But the proposed third tranche has a less than wholesome odour, and not just because they are at least twice the cost. In December, Russian President Vladimir Putin urged Prime Minister Narendra Modi to take three Talwar-class frigates off Russia's hands for three entirely self-serving reasons. First, Yantar shipyard has six frigates languishing in various stages of build, but the Russian Navy wants just three. Yantar began building six because Moscow was certain it could persuade perpetual-buyer India of the need for another three frigates. Second, the frigates that languish in Yantar have no power plants (engines). Ukraine has refused to supply Russia the Zoryagas turbines that power earlier Talwar-class frigates, and which were contracted for this batch too. Ukraine's refusal comes after Moscow's military adventure in Ukraine and its annexation of the Crimea. Squeezing another power plant into the Talwar-class hulls would involve major re-engineering. India, on the other hand, with strong defence ties with Ukraine, could obtain Zorya turbines without much problem. Thirdly, even though Moscow's proposal has been cloaked in the rhetoric of "Make in India", the Talwar-class features mainly Russian systems, sensors and weapons, which cannot be changed without adversely impacting on delivery time lines.

To select an Indian partner shipyard, Yantar experts have toured, and approved, at least three Indian shipyards - Larsen & Toubro's new Katupalli shipyard, near Ennore; Pipavav Shipyard in Gujarat, recently taken over by Anil Ambani's Reliance Infrastructure; and Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL). It is unclear whether the build plan involves transporting three partly built hulls from Russia to India and finishing the construction here; or whether it is planned to build three frigates in India, ground-up. Either way, the ghost of Gorshkov looms over this hare-brained project.

There is no convincing reason for New Delhi to contemplate a government-to-government proposal with Moscow, in which competitive tendering is abandoned, and a foreign design adopted, to build the Talwar class in India. Instead, the navy, with its proud tradition of developing and building Indian-designed-and-built frigates, should insist on another three Project 17-A frigates, to add to the seven that are slated to start construction shortly.

Even the predecessors of Project 17-A - the three 5,600-tonne Shivalik-class frigates built under Project 17 - are regarded as superior to the Talwar-class. Project 17-A will obviously be another notch ahead. Like the Shivalik-class, Project 17-A frigates would embark two medium helicopters, greatly enhancing their anti-submarine and airborne early warning capability. Much of the weaponry that will equip Project 17-A frigates is indigenously built, including rocket launchers, Brahmos cruise missiles and the world-class Long-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM). Vitally, the indigenous frigates would have secure Indian-designed electronic warfare (EW) systems and a tested indigenous "combat management system", the computer brain that controls the frigate's arsenal in battle. The levels of "Make in India" achievable in Project 17-A could never be matched whilst building the Talwar-class in India. Furthermore, adding another three frigates to the seven already being built under Project 17-A would enhance economies of scale, reducing per-unit price of the frigate. And, with the Directorate General of Naval Design having already finalised much of Project 17-A's design, build time would be greatly reduced, eroding one of the key arguments presented to justify buying the Talwar-class.

Instead of the bizarre solution of Russia deciding which Indian shipyard should build naval frigates, this should be decided through competitive tendering between Pipavav, L&T and other eligible Indian shipyards. The defence ministry must evaluate proposals, with greater indigenisation being a key parameter for selection, along with a company's track record and warship construction infrastructure. The contract should include exemplary penal clauses that impose stiff monetary penalties on delays and quality shortfalls, as well as cancellation of defence production licences for inordinate delays. The defence ministry must also promote scale manufacture by coordinating common sub-vendors for all three shipyards that would simultaneously build Project 17-A - MDL (four ships), GRSE (three ships) and the selected private shipyard (three ships). This would also be an opportunity for a comparative evaluation of three shipyards to deliver on time, on cost and as per quality standards.

There is no war looming that forces the defence ministry into the messy business of hybrid solutions - Russian hulls, Indian build, Russian fitments, sensors and weapons. If the ministry has a pressing compulsion, it is to demonstrate that it can, coherently and logically weave together the numerous threads of warship building into a strong fabric. Its decision on these three warships would be an important signal of intent.

Source:- Broadsword: The ghost of Gorshkov

An ideal solution but the ONLY reason the Talwar option is being looked at is because of the IN's desire for quicker induction. The P-17As will be beasts no doubt about that but the first one isn't set to enter service for 7 years (2022), can the IN really allow for a 9 year gap between frigate inductions (the last Talwar class entered service in 2013)? The Talwars/modified Talwars will be available off the shelf and could be in service within 4 years.


Buying a few Talwars from Russia whilst the P-17A program is getting up to speed seems like a pretty sensible and pragmatic decision. Hopefully the P-17A orders will increase to 12-15- by the time the P-17As are being inducted the IN will be inducting them at a rate of 1 a year thanks to parallel production and it makes sense to take advantage of this to the fullest degree possible.

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

But who will built it for you ? There is a reason for Navy to go for another batch of talwar class . There are two aspect for this 1) Helping Russia economically when they needed us most . But never the less the psych effects of having Russian frigates and the might of talwar is well worth going for it !
2) First of all even though our shivalik might look like a beast against talwar we must also give it to the Russians for designing a mighty warrior jam packed with he'll lot of weapons in such a small platform . And main aspect is we have our shipyards running at full stream for the next 6-8 years . So we can't wait for another additional battalions to secure our sea .

I wonder why Viki is a ghost for Indian navy but the for 2.5 billion we got fully refurbished full blown aircraft carrier with 25-30 year as of life span . Still its a good deal when we needed a AC to maintain our depleting naval underwater fleet . Price and needs all depends on how fast you want something . I can wait for right price for another 2 years to buy a smartphone but if I can't afford to wait I have to go for present price isn't it

 

[Donatello]

I concur with this notion.

Why is it they still lack a true LR SAM system?

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

An ideal solution but the ONLY reason the Talwar option is being looked at is because of the IN's desire for quicker induction. The P-17As will be beasts no doubt about that but the first one isn't set to enter service for 7 years (2022), can the IN really allow for a 9 year gap between frigate inductions (the last Talwar class entered service in 2013)? The Talwars/modified Talwars will be available off the shelf and could be in service within 4 years.


Buying a few Talwars from Russia whilst the P-17A program is getting up to speed seems like a pretty sensible and pragmatic decision. Hopefully the P-17A orders will increase to 12-15- by the time the P-17As are being inducted the IN will be inducting them at a rate of 1 a year thanks to parallel production and it makes sense to take advantage of this to the fullest degree possible.

The price tag is going to be crucial - back in 2013 after the induction of INS Trikand when the negotiations for three more Talwar-class frigates started - the price was $3 billion for 3 more frigates that is $1 billion each (which of course now will be more than that) - in comparison, P-17A will cost US$1.1 billion each - more or less both will eventually come with the same price tag when the deal is struck. Isn't it possible that we put the Shivalik-class back in production? It's already a matured platform outperforming Talwar-class and will save both money and time if we do so?

Either way P-17A's orders should be increased - wonder why they ordered only three Shivalik-class when the requirement even today is much more than that.

@Agent_47

 

[GURU DUTT]

Why is it they still lack a true LR SAM system?

its not avilable as of nor but is already planned for induction as soon as its avilable

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

Why is it they still lack a true LR SAM system?

I wonder what you are pointing out Mr Sam or LR Sam ? Both are different Barak 70Km or something else?

 

[21 Dec 2012]

Talwar-class frigates started - the price was $3 billion for 3 more frigates

Jesus Christ........................
At this price, India could buy a Type 45 Destroyer. Buying GCS or FREMM would give you much more capability at much less price, although India already operates this type. Maybe there is some under-the-table thing going on here.

 

[Echo_419]

The ghost of Gorshkov

If private sector is to build three more frigates, why the Talwar-class? Just boost the Project 17-A order​

The Indian Navy, clearly, has an appetite for punishment. One might imagine that the nightmarish experience of refurbishing the Gorshkov - now the aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya - in a Russian shipyard would be enough to forestall any more such warship building projects. But no! Although the Gorshkov took more than twice the contracted time (118 months instead of 52 months) and almost thrice the contracted cost ($2.3 billion instead of $947 million), the navy now wants to involve itself in building three Russian Talwar-class frigates.

Frigates are versatile, multi-role warships of 4,000-6,000 tonnes that can deal with threats from the air (fighters and missiles), surface (missiles and guns) and underwater (submarines). The navy is 61 vessels short of its planned strength of 198 warships and this shortfall is most keenly felt in capital warships like frigates, the business end of any navy, with their ability to operate independently in the face of multi-dimensional threats. But there are capacity limitations to building more frigates in India: our yards that can do so are already stretched to capacity. Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) have orders for building seven Project-17A frigates in India. So the navy has proposed that Yantar Shipyard, located in Kaliningrad, Russia, should tie up with an Indian private sector shipyard to build three Talwar-class frigates in India, to add to six such frigates procured from Russia earlier.

To be sure, the navy's experience with the Talwar-class (Russian name: Krivak-III; or Project 1135.6) has been more reassuring than building the Gorshkov. The six Talwar-class warships were delivered at the price contracted and with less than a year of delay. The first tranche of three frigates (INS Talwar, Trishul and Tabar) was contracted in 1997 for about one billion dollars and delivered between 2003-04. The second tranche of three (INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand) was contracted in 2006 and delivered in 2012-13 for a slightly higher price.

But the proposed third tranche has a less than wholesome odour, and not just because they are at least twice the cost. In December, Russian President Vladimir Putin urged Prime Minister Narendra Modi to take three Talwar-class frigates off Russia's hands for three entirely self-serving reasons. First, Yantar shipyard has six frigates languishing in various stages of build, but the Russian Navy wants just three. Yantar began building six because Moscow was certain it could persuade perpetual-buyer India of the need for another three frigates. Second, the frigates that languish in Yantar have no power plants (engines). Ukraine has refused to supply Russia the Zoryagas turbines that power earlier Talwar-class frigates, and which were contracted for this batch too. Ukraine's refusal comes after Moscow's military adventure in Ukraine and its annexation of the Crimea. Squeezing another power plant into the Talwar-class hulls would involve major re-engineering. India, on the other hand, with strong defence ties with Ukraine, could obtain Zorya turbines without much problem. Thirdly, even though Moscow's proposal has been cloaked in the rhetoric of "Make in India", the Talwar-class features mainly Russian systems, sensors and weapons, which cannot be changed without adversely impacting on delivery time lines.

To select an Indian partner shipyard, Yantar experts have toured, and approved, at least three Indian shipyards - Larsen & Toubro's new Katupalli shipyard, near Ennore; Pipavav Shipyard in Gujarat, recently taken over by Anil Ambani's Reliance Infrastructure; and Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL). It is unclear whether the build plan involves transporting three partly built hulls from Russia to India and finishing the construction here; or whether it is planned to build three frigates in India, ground-up. Either way, the ghost of Gorshkov looms over this hare-brained project.

There is no convincing reason for New Delhi to contemplate a government-to-government proposal with Moscow, in which competitive tendering is abandoned, and a foreign design adopted, to build the Talwar class in India. Instead, the navy, with its proud tradition of developing and building Indian-designed-and-built frigates, should insist on another three Project 17-A frigates, to add to the seven that are slated to start construction shortly.

Even the predecessors of Project 17-A - the three 5,600-tonne Shivalik-class frigates built under Project 17 - are regarded as superior to the Talwar-class. Project 17-A will obviously be another notch ahead. Like the Shivalik-class, Project 17-A frigates would embark two medium helicopters, greatly enhancing their anti-submarine and airborne early warning capability. Much of the weaponry that will equip Project 17-A frigates is indigenously built, including rocket launchers, Brahmos cruise missiles and the world-class Long-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM). Vitally, the indigenous frigates would have secure Indian-designed electronic warfare (EW) systems and a tested indigenous "combat management system", the computer brain that controls the frigate's arsenal in battle. The levels of "Make in India" achievable in Project 17-A could never be matched whilst building the Talwar-class in India. Furthermore, adding another three frigates to the seven already being built under Project 17-A would enhance economies of scale, reducing per-unit price of the frigate. And, with the Directorate General of Naval Design having already finalised much of Project 17-A's design, build time would be greatly reduced, eroding one of the key arguments presented to justify buying the Talwar-class.

Instead of the bizarre solution of Russia deciding which Indian shipyard should build naval frigates, this should be decided through competitive tendering between Pipavav, L&T and other eligible Indian shipyards. The defence ministry must evaluate proposals, with greater indigenisation being a key parameter for selection, along with a company's track record and warship construction infrastructure. The contract should include exemplary penal clauses that impose stiff monetary penalties on delays and quality shortfalls, as well as cancellation of defence production licences for inordinate delays. The defence ministry must also promote scale manufacture by coordinating common sub-vendors for all three shipyards that would simultaneously build Project 17-A - MDL (four ships), GRSE (three ships) and the selected private shipyard (three ships). This would also be an opportunity for a comparative evaluation of three shipyards to deliver on time, on cost and as per quality standards.

There is no war looming that forces the defence ministry into the messy business of hybrid solutions - Russian hulls, Indian build, Russian fitments, sensors and weapons. If the ministry has a pressing compulsion, it is to demonstrate that it can, coherently and logically weave together the numerous threads of warship building into a strong fabric. Its decision on these three warships would be an important signal of intent.

Source:- Broadsword: The ghost of Gorshkov

I agree with the OP better build the frigates at home

 

[Abingdonboy]

I agree with the OP better build the frigates at home

As far as I know this is now not open for discussion- the IN has stated all future warships will be built in India (at least part of the order in the case of LDPs and such) and the Russian side have already evaluated Indian shipyards for making the Talwar in India. As such it is a certainty the Talwars (at least part of the order) will be built in India if this option is pursued.

 

[Donatello]

I wonder what you are pointing out Mr Sam or LR Sam ? Both are different Barak 70Km or something else?

70km is not long range, at best Medium range. When you have supersonic missiles coming at your from 300km+, it is easy to see why a full umbrella protection is needed.....so that the enemy jets don't get the chance to acquire a lock in the first place.

 

[Echo_419]

An ideal solution but the ONLY reason the Talwar option is being looked at is because of the IN's desire for quicker induction. The P-17As will be beasts no doubt about that but the first one isn't set to enter service for 7 years (2022), can the IN really allow for a 9 year gap between frigate inductions (the last Talwar class entered service in 2013)? The Talwars/modified Talwars will be available off the shelf and could be in service within 4 years.


Buying a few Talwars from Russia whilst the P-17A program is getting up to speed seems like a pretty sensible and pragmatic decision. Hopefully the P-17A orders will increase to 12-15- by the time the P-17As are being inducted the IN will be inducting them at a rate of 1 a year thanks to parallel production and it makes sense to take advantage of this to the fullest degree possible.

I agree with you but surely there can be a middle solution to this problem like leasing those frigates

 

[Abingdonboy]

70km is not long range, at best Medium range. When you have supersonic missiles coming at your from 300km+, it is easy to see why a full umbrella protection is needed.....so that the enemy jets don't get the chance to acquire a lock in the first place.

Except that this LR-SAM (Barak-8) has been specifically designed to intercept the world's most advanced (and fastest) AShM (the Bhramos/Yakhont) .


This however is a contradiction in itself as the Kolkata class carries the BrahMos as well as the Barak-8. This means that the Indian Navy deploys the poison and the antidote on the same platform.
Explained – Can The US Navy Shoot Down The Deadly BrahMos Missile? | Defencyclopedia

 

[21 Dec 2012]

When you have supersonic missiles coming at your from 300km+, it is easy to see why a full umbrella protection is needed.....

How better does a long range (consequently less agile) SAM perform against supersonic missiles from 300km+? BTW, Barak-8 was designed from scratch to beat supersonic missiles from 300km+ (Yakhont).