Program on Tirah Valley Operation

[MystryMan]

He did the right thing . I don't know how MES goons left unattended

MES stands for?

 

[Tps43]

MES stands for?

Military Engineering Services

 

[QasimTraveler]

View attachment 534353

This is why we need a well funded army, end of discussion!

Agreed Sir, however, I think a longer version of this should be "This is why we need a better economy to support a well funded military". I cannot help but compare Pakistan to economic growth of China and India. They have the $$$ now and can brag a lot.

I hope we can grow economically soon.

My 2cents.

 

[RescueRanger]

Agreed Sir, however, I think a longer version of this should be "This is why we need a better economy to support a well funded military". I cannot help but compare Pakistan to economic growth of China and India. They have the $$$ now and can brag a lot.

I hope we can grow economically soon.

My 2cents.

Well said, best post in this thread.

 

[gangsta_rap]

And NOT all Civilians are Corrupt. You are part of Civilians and had all civilians been corrupt, this Country would have gone to ruins a long time ago! Civvies you call them, but there are variations everywhere, just like good cop & bad cop.

*Civilian ruling class.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

At the end of the day, especially for a Muslim country, no effective/disciplined/motivated/national etc. Army and no Deep State (supported by the Deep Nation) = ruined to rubbles = Irak, Syria, Lybia etc....

 

[SQ8]

My friend this use of the term "they" is quite misleading. By using "they", you muddy up exactly who and what you are referring to. If you think that its the Army that is generating money then factually that is incorrect. Army, or any Armed Service, does NOT generate revenue.

If the "they" refers to foundations such as Fauji, Bahria or Shaheen, then do realize that they are civilian (retired-military) run concerns that cater to the needs of the retired personnel and over the years have expanded into retail, banking and other sectors. However none of the money generated by these organizations goes into the coffers of the military!

In the early days of independence, these organizations were given lands by the government to set up industry etc. and they definitely took advantage of this and the tax shelters (because they were being used to help retired personnel transition back into the civilian life), however over time, they have expanded into various areas without much government help. They remain one of the largest contributors of taxes to the government.

Do remind me of how many "active" officer are running DHA etc though. If you delve on the topic of Road construction etc. then do realize that FWO is a military run organization with the task of creating infrastructure in areas where civilians cannot operate (northern areas). Due to the speed and quality of work they have done in the past, recently some of the government contracts have been given to FWO in favor of local civilian contractors based on timelines/schedules.

On the issue of Army taking a chunk of Government pensions budget, that is the norm the world over. Armed forces are a part of the federal government and the needs of their retired personnel have to be catered for in this manner. The issue with any standing military is that it has 3 distinct heads. It needs to be funded for its capital expenditures which comprise everything from an aircraft, tank down to a needle in the FSMO of a jawan. Then it needs to be funded on its operational expenditures which provide the means for the military to keep itself running, i.e. maintenance of its peacetime locations, salaries of its officers and ranks, expenses related to operational exercises, training courses, transport etc. etc. Lastly, the military also needs to be funded for the upkeep of those who have served in its ranks and retired. These retired personnel have the pension budget to thank for.

Hopefully you realize that the naysayers take up issue without understanding all that goes on to maintain a standing armed force. That we continue to keep our military expenditures around 3.5% of the GDP and 18-20% in terms of the defense budget should inform people that the military isn't the money pit that people claim it to be.



This I would like to respond to directly as I have first hand experience here. What the Captain told your father is only half true. Whatever he is to receive, he has to pay for it. There is no "free" land or plots being granted to field offers. You have to pay in to get a piece of the land that the Armed Forces decide to give to you. The families of the martyrs and those who are seriously wounded/disabled are definitely granted land for free.

Secondly, the point about a car in the back and the front, not sure what the Qari sahib meant. There is a house granted to officers with families, but again you live in it while you are posted and the onto the next station. The houses do get more cushy the higher the rank. That is a reflection of changing times but in my days in Pakistan, the houses were nothing to write home about. You had to pay for the utilities yourself, as was the case for all other expenses if you were an officer. Getting housing itself was not a straightforward thing because there is never enough housing for the officers and men altogether.

One may ask, why is all this done for those in uniform, on that I could write another page or two but I will spare the space. Suffice it to say, the nature of the job is as such that such things have to be looked after. And this is not specific to Pakistan, having visited foreign military installations overseas, I have seen the same elsewhere too.

Last thing, some corruption happens everywhere. The vast majority of the officers and men in our armed forces don't engage in this. Some do unfortunately. The same as everywhere else. But this does not equate to multi-million dollars of corruption every yea or things of that nature.

Having visited the combined military accounts office many times and being well versed in their procurement procedures, I completely disagree with the last paragraph.
Multi-million dollar corruption is normal for the military and unlike the civilian sector no buck to answer to most of the time.
I do however attribute this to a national character issue rather than being specific to the military; we are a nation of cheats where honesty is the exception, its time to recognize it rather than shoving it under the carpet.

 

[Awan68]

Having visited the combined military accounts office many times and being well versed in their procurement procedures, I completely disagree with the last paragraph.
Multi-million dollar corruption is normal for the military and unlike the civilian sector no buck to answer to most of the time.
I do however attribute this to a national character issue rather than being specific to the military; we are a nation of cheats where honesty is the exception, its time to recognize it rather than shoving it under the carpet.

America was a nation of crooks n thieves, they got over it didnt they?, there is no such thing as national character, its just humans bieng humans until they get the rough end of the stick. The only thing we lack here is the stick, too many carrots u see....

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

While they may not have a big budget, they have 70+ firms producing money in the country, it is estimated that these firms in total are worth around $20 billion or more. Most notable being DHA, apart from road construction and even fertilizer firms, mainly headed by active personnel.

Is there anything wrong with that? You think any army with a meager 8 billion dollars can face off the challenges that our military has to deal with?

 

[Signalian]

The Pakistan Army also takes a chunk from Government pensions budget. I still remember, my father was a doctor at a government hospital and was sent for Hajj along with a delegation that included some Army ranks including a captain, somewhere along the talk, the captain told him that he will receive 2 plots in a defense phase, and a separate bungalow after retirement.

A captain does not get all that. Don't believe everything you hear.

All officers who get houses, plots etc pay for them from salaries, DSOP fund etc. No one gets anything for free.

My Qari Sahab teaches children of Army ranks (majors i believe), in our talk (when I expressed desire to join PAF) he has told me about how big and well protected their villa's are, they have cars, and when they leave, there is one army vehicle in front and back.
I have seen it myself too.

Yes, some posts have protocol vehicles. some positions have villas. some get guard at gates.
But these posts are few in army and depends upon a lot of factors. Not every officer gets these privileges, only a few due to the nature of posting; command or staff.

While the lower tier doesn't get much at all, the upper ranks are well off. And that is something you cannot deny. There is an imbalance of wealth.

Most soldiers retire after being a sepoy for 16-18 years. NCO's, JCO's also get privileges e.g. JCO's get batman/NCO and also property(im not sure if its land or plot).
There is no imbalance of wealth. Everybody gets such facilities after retirement according to rank. Pension is for every one, amount depends upon rank. Everybody gets free medical treatment for themselves, kids under 18 and also parents, after retirement.