Profile: STM LF-2400 Light Frigate (Turkey)

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hate to rain on your parade but Western states have put Turkey under an unoficial embargo thus Turkey can t deliver such frigates.Romania just canceled the tender for the modernisation of its Type 22 frigates which was won by a Turkish consortium because Western suppliers refused to deliver subsystems or integrate weapons with the Turkish combat system.

There are ways around it. For example, the bid for the design, hull and propulsion can be separated from the subsystems and weapons package. STM in Turkey can be responsible for the ship and work with KSEW (as it had with the Fleet Tanker), but the Pakistan Navy can head up the procurement of radars, weapons, EW/ECM, etc, itself.

 

[cabatli_53]

It was stated by the Romanian defence minister a few days ago.Because of this,the whole tender (which the Turks originally won) was scrapped and a new one reopened,this time without any Turkish bids.

The strategic subsystem selection is the decision of related countries. The main-bidder just contact with related sources to acquire their tools or country itself may acquire the subsystems with a government to government deals. It is about project model. If one source refuse to integrate them to Turkish network, Alternatives are always available but Romania just gave a politic decision (If It is true) and acted How your Europeans wishes. It is not about Turkey's desperation but politic will of Romanian government. Same company is upgrading Pakistani Agosta class submarines without any problem. From a different perspective, Winning a tender with eliminating many European strong bidders in a EU country is actually introducing the the level of capabilities, rivalry power/will of Turkish institutes in such strategic big scale projects, while constructing their own naval ships from FAC to destroyer class with own torpedoes, SSM/SAM missiles, radars, command control centers...etc

 

[flamer84]

The strategic subsystem selection is the decision of related countries. The main-bidder just contact with related sources to acquire their tools or country itself may acquire the subsystems with a government to government deals. It is about project model. If one source refuse to integrate them to Turkish network, Alternatives are always available but Romania just gave a politic decision (If It is true) and acted How your Europeans wishes. It is not about Turkey's desperation but politic will of Romanian government. Same company is upgrading Pakistani Agosta class submarines without any problem. From a different perspective, Winning a tender with eliminating many European strong bidders in a EU country is actually introducing the the level of capabilities, rivalry power/will of Turkish institutes in such strategic big scale projects, while constructing their own naval ships from FAC to destroyer class with own torpedoes, SSM/SAM missiles, radars, command control centers...etc

Oh really? What VLS could Turkey provide on its own? What AsM? What AAA missiles...don't get me started on sonar,radars,etc which also probably rely on western subsystems.The statement was clear...the Turkish firm couldn't fulfill its part of the contract because it didn't have the capacity to do it without those subsystems and a doubt the DM would give such a statement on nationa TV without solid facts behind it.
BTW,Turkish destroyers with their own missiles don't exist besides some drawings.

 

[cabatli_53]

Oh really? What VLS could Turkey provide on its own? What AsM? What AAA missiles...don't get me started on sonar,radars,etc which also probably rely on western subsystems.The statement was clear...the Turkish firm couldn't fulfill its part of the contract because it didn't have the capacity to do it without those subsystems and a doubt the DM would give such a statement on nationa TV without solid facts behind it.
BTW,Turkish destroyers with their own missiles don't exist besides some drawings.

What I am talking is clear. No need to drail thread into other sides. You can find many alternatives, not about Turkish subsystems. The system Turkish contractor is going to provide is about the decision of Romanian Army or officials. It is the reason your European masters lead you to cancel the tender. If It was about STM's decision, They can easily find many alternatives to replace the related one. Think a foreign contractor shipyard win the next tender, They will also do the similar things with acquiring required materials from the sources and integrate them to your ships. There is not a single shipyard or company which is able to produce sonar, radar, missile and software so The politic leads the tender's roadway, nothing more !

 

[flamer84]

What I am talking is clear. No need to drail thread into other sides. You can find many alternatives, not about Turkish subsystems. The system Turkish contractor is going to provide is about the decision of Romanian Army or officials. It is the reason your European masters lead you to cancel the tender. If It was about STM's decision, They can easily find many alternatives to replace the related one. Think a foreign contractor shipyard win the next tender, They will also do the similar things with acquiring required materials from the sources and integrate them to your ships. There is not a single shipyard or company which is able to produce sonar, radar, missile and software so The politic leads the tender's roadway, nothing more !

Long story short,you can take provide a frigate without these subsystems

 

[cabatli_53]

Long story short,you can take provide a frigate without these subsystems

Turkish frigate which is under construction at present, will use following subsystems...

-Atmaca SSM (200+km)
-Hisar-A/O SAM
-Temren Blk-1 Missile (17km)
-Hizir Torpedo defence system
-Turkish T/R modules on Smart radar or CAFRAD lite
-Alper LPI radar
-Meteksan main Sonar
-Aselsan Kulaç Measurement sonar
-Tork light Torpedo/Anti-torpedo torpedo
-Genesis ADVENT CMS
-Korkut-D CIWS
-Ares-2N Electronic support/Attack system
-Stamp/Stop/Smash Naval RCW

We, Turks predict that Domestic designed Frigate with all those subsystems will be one of the best in our region. We can construct our own warships but can not upgrade a Romanian obsolete frigate cause of "lack of technical abilities". Pathetic !

 

[flamer84]

Turkish frigate which is under construction at present, will use following subsystems...

-Atmaca SSM (200+km)
-Hisar-A/O SAM
-Temren Blk-1 Missile (17km)
-Hizir Torpedo defence system
-Turkish T/R modules on Smart radar or CAFRAD lite
-Alper LPI radar
-Meteksan main Sonar
-Aselsan Kulaç Measurement sonar
-Tork light Torpedo/Anti-torpedo torpedo
-Genesis ADVENT CMS
-Korkut-D CIWS
-Ares-2N Electronic support/Attack system
-Stamp/Stop/Smash Naval RCW

We, Turks predict that Domestic designed Frigate with all those subsystems will be one of the best in our region. We can construct our own warships but can not upgrade a Romanian obsolete frigate cause of "lack of technical abilities". Pathetic !

That s a wishlist for now,and no,you can t upgrade those frigates,hence the disqualification from the tender.....because you couldn't provide what you promised.

 

[Tank131]

More than anything eles mentioned above is that Pakistan (unlike romania) has access to Chinese options and possibly even russian. Additionally, with bae onboard with helping turkey develop its next gen fighter, especially in jet engine tech, with Thales giving license and export rights for the Smart S Mk2, with Augusta Westland giving full rights over the mangusta attack helicopter (now the Atak), there are some big holes in the notion that the turks cant deliver. Especially when you consider that the MLU's for PAF's F-16s were done by Turkey, and they are still getting loads of defense equipment from the US, it seems a far fetched notion. It sounds more like there was political pressure from European companies/countries on Romania to choose their solutions.

 

[flamer84]

More than anything eles mentioned above is that Pakistan (unlike romania) has access to Chinese options and possibly even russian. Additionally, with bae onboard with helping turkey develop its next gen fighter, especially in jet engine tech, with Thales giving license and export rights for the Smart S Mk2, with Augusta Westland giving full rights over the mangusta attack helicopter (now the Atak), there are some big holes in the notion that the turks cant deliver. Especially when you consider that the MLU's for PAF's F-16s were done by Turkey, and they are still getting loads of defense equipment from the US, it seems a far fetched notion. It sounds more like there was political pressure from European companies/countries on Romania to choose their solutions.

If that was true ,the Turkish side could have issued a statement citing that Romania pulled out on its own.They didn't although the DM was clear. ...the Turks couldn't do it

 

[dy1022]

truth hurts, one has no money, one has no capability but talking like a great industry power, LOL

better leave them alone.

 

[cabatli_53]

That s a wishlist for now,and no,you can t upgrade those frigates,hence the disqualification from the tender.....because you couldn't provide what you promised.

Wishfull list maybe for a country like Romania who is controlled by European politic and economic requirements but There is a simple reality as Turkish shipyard is constructing own designed frigates with listed equipments without any doubt. A few of them will catch the production schedule which is in their trial phase. It means Turkish industry commenced to provide related systems to own ships additions to ally states. Romanian officials also believe the capabilities of Turkish industry so decided to deliver own sensitive systems to the hands of Turkish engineers with required/listed equipments before problems erupted. If your masters don't allow you to procces with Turkey with playing export regularion games over defence tools you required, it is your problem, not about Turkish industry. There is always alternative ways to proceed if you want to do it honoustly. You also know that Europe is not sole source to provide required equipments. Proceeding your second tender without Turkish bidders is also another indication of a European wishes over Turkey which is pure politic.

In Turkey, the procurement scenarioes are as following: U-214TN submarines with around %80 national input is being constructed in Turkish shipyards at present. Turkey is producing T-129 thanks to contribution of Italy. Almost all sections of T70 utility helicopter including %65 of turboshaft production containing 105 helo is to be revealed and exported thanks to Skorsky-TAI cooperation. BAE is an official design partner of TF-X fighter project. Turkey is producing sensitive aerospace parts of USA worth 500-600 million $ annual. They made deals with Turkey worth billion $ but controlling the Romania like states based on own benefits. What i am talking is the pure politic will of Europeans controlling the states like Romania, leading their procurements. A few years ago, they did the same to Poland but Poland show finger to European opposite voices to purchase non-European weapons and keep purchasing.

 

[flamer84]

Wishfull list maybe for a country like Romania who is controlled by European politic and economic requirements but There is a simple reality as Turkish shipyard is constructing own designed frigates with listed equipments without any doubt. A few of them will catch the production schedule which is in their trial phase. It means Turkish industry commenced to provide related systems to own ships additions to ally states. Romanian officials also believe the capabilities of Turkish industry so decided to deliver own sensitive systems to the hands of Turkish engineers with required/listed equipments before harsh talks. If your masters don't allow you to procces with Turkey with playing export regularion games over defence tools you required, it is your problem, not about Turkish industry. There is always alternative ways to proceed if you want to do it honoustly. Europe is not sole source to provide required equipments. Proceeding your second tender without Turkish bidders is also another indication of a European wishes over Turkey which is pure politic.

In Turkey, the procurement scenarioes are as following: U-214TN submarines with around %80 national input is being constructed in Turkish shipyards at present. Turkey is producing T-129 thanks to contribution of Italy. Almost all sections of T70 utility helicopter including %65 of turboshaft production containing 105 helo is to be revealed and exported thanks to Skorsky-TAI cooperation. BAE is an official design partner of TF-X fighter project. Turkey is producing sensitive aerospace parts of USA worth 500-600 million $ annual. They made deals with Turkey worth billion $ but controlling the Romania like states based on own benefits. What i am talking is the pure politic will of Europeans controlling the states like Romania, leading their procurements. A few years ago, they did the same to Poland but Poland show finger to European opposite voices to purchase non-European weapons and keep purchasing.

Wishfull list maybe for a country like Romania who is controlled by European politic and economic requirements but There is a simple reality as Turkish shipyard is constructing own designed frigates with listed equipments without any doubt. A few of them will catch the production schedule which is in their trial phase. It means Turkish industry commenced to provide related systems to own ships additions to ally states. Romanian officials also believe the capabilities of Turkish industry so decided to deliver own sensitive systems to the hands of Turkish engineers with required/listed equipments before problems erupted. If your masters don't allow you to procces with Turkey with playing export regularion games over defence tools you required, it is your problem, not about Turkish industry. There is always alternative ways to proceed if you want to do it honoustly. You also know that Europe is not sole source to provide required equipments. Proceeding your second tender without Turkish bidders is also another indication of a European wishes over Turkey which is pure politic.

In Turkey, the procurement scenarioes are as following: U-214TN submarines with around %80 national input is being constructed in Turkish shipyards at present. Turkey is producing T-129 thanks to contribution of Italy. Almost all sections of T70 utility helicopter including %65 of turboshaft production containing 105 helo is to be revealed and exported thanks to Skorsky-TAI cooperation. BAE is an official design partner of TF-X fighter project. Turkey is producing sensitive aerospace parts of USA worth 500-600 million $ annual. They made deals with Turkey worth billion $ but controlling the Romania like states based on own benefits. What i am talking is the pure politic will of Europeans controlling the states like Romania, leading their procurements. A few years ago, they did the same to Poland but Poland show finger to European opposite voices to purchase non-European weapons and keep purchasing.

Yes,those are drawings and a wistfully list,Western companies are heavily involved in Turkey s def industry,without that it s hard to estimate how much of your equipment would be operational.

Your rants are very unbecoming for a mod, let us stick to the facts and those are that my country s highest ranking defence official made an official statement saying that the Turkish side can t fulfill its technical obligations due to restrictions on western subsystems to which the Turkish consortium said NOTHING, thus acknowledging this to be true.The rest are rants and,frankly,childish Internet behaviour.

 

[royalharris]

More than anything eles mentioned above is that Pakistan (unlike romania) has access to Chinese options and possibly even russian. Additionally, with bae onboard with helping turkey develop its next gen fighter, especially in jet engine tech, with Thales giving license and export rights for the Smart S Mk2, with Augusta Westland giving full rights over the mangusta attack helicopter (now the Atak), there are some big holes in the notion that the turks cant deliver. Especially when you consider that the MLU's for PAF's F-16s were done by Turkey, and they are still getting loads of defense equipment from the US, it seems a far fetched notion. It sounds more like there was political pressure from European companies/countries on Romania to choose their solutions.

No Chinese subsystem for Turkish ship,let the buyer ask USA or Russia

 

[Tank131]

Whay would stop chinese systems from being added?