Problems with Pakistan

[shukla_swapnil]

First and foremost my heartfelt condolences to the family of deceased in the Mosque bombing. May God give then courage and strength to pull through this hardship. I have lost my uncle to a similar attack and I know how hard it is. The feelings are heartfelt and most honest.

But this is not the reason for the post. I have been a member of the forum for just a short while(about a month). I came in here with some expectations of having a healthy and enlightening discussions to gain some proper insight of the POV from the other side of fence. To understand what is it that is claiming lives of these innocents. What is the cause of this proxy war which has hit me too close for comfort. I came looking for some balanced individuals from Pakistan who would tell me what is the reason that my cousin has to live without her father for the rest of her life. What is the logic.

Infact I did come across some very reasonable and responsible members but sad to say they are in a severe minority. I hope you take this piece in the spirit in which it is written. It is a reflection of what is happening on this forum.

Here are some observations I've made and believe me I came here with a clean slate and no prejudices:

1. Pakistan overall seems to be confused nation. They have this overwhelming sense of patriotism and still the patriotism seems to work exactly the same way their religion is supposed to work - Pakistan is a good country and the only good country and all is working fine in Pakistan and the entire world is conspiring to weaken / destabilize it .

2. Similar belief in ISI and PA. Its ISI and Pakistan Army that has tied-up with America, It is ISI that is working in cahoots with them. If you all hate America so much, why not wage a long march against their illegal occupation on your land. Are the billions in aid the price for the lives for innocents being killed in Pakistan? If that is so tell us what's the tag you have put up on Kashmiris, We'll pay it and lets get over this chapter after that. It'll be far lesser than the regular Army spends and loss of lives of shaheeds India has to pay every week, month and year.
The all powerful ISI is yet to quote even an accused in Benazir killing, Mosque bombing Lahore attack etc.

3. They always have different scales of determining terrorists - If on Indian Territory they are Freedom Fighters if in Pakistan they are hardcore terrorists and if on America / Britain / other countries - they are not terrorists at all state planned strategic move.

4. If someone raises a question about Pakistan, everyone gets aggressive and point at similar elements in India. Yes, I agree we have truckloads of problems in India we accept them identify them and already working towards eliminating them.
Will this solve your problem?

5. The newly identified Hindu extremist / terror outfit seems to have given you all the more reason to blame India. Mind you it was the allegedly Hindu radical and Brahmin driven and repressive Indian police that uncovered this outfit like they should be. This is never acknowledged. I have frequently seen Varun Gandhi’s name floating around, and no one mentions that he’s not only barred from contesting elections but warrant has been issued and He’ll be surrendering / arrested very soon.
6. And most shocking of their behavior is - the identification of terrorists as Muslims. From what I've heard / seen generally all the terrorists are denounced as not having any religion as every religion teaches peace.
If a Mumbai terror attack happens and accused was a Muslim then he is denounced from religion by one and all that he is not a Muslim. When a mosque is bombed its said a muslim can not bomb a mosque - HOW COME REMEMBER HE'S NOT A MUSLIM HE'S A TERRORIST.

7. My final request - Please don’t follow blindly. The way I see it Army and ISI just want an important role for themselves and create insecurity for Pakistanis by their propaganda. They want to shy away from accountability. The other day I read about several public and privately owned enterprises were being run by army with zero accountability.

I have supporting posts / videos / Neutral party articles for each of the above mentioned points if you wish I can produce them.

Finally, I do not want to start a fight but willing for a healthy discussion. I am plainly stating my analysis of what I've observed in this forum in last month. I know I have no authority to comment on Pakistani way of life leave alone suggesting improvements. But I am plainly stating my viewpoint. If mods find it inflammatory - you are free to boot me out and delete this post. But I will make this statement that it was heartless of dabong1 and others making imflamatory comments of killing all indians and all Jihadi crap. May god never make you experience a loss so deep. Guys we are not at war. We have differences but that does not mean pulling down someone who has been killed be it on either side of the border.

Regards

 

[muse]

Thank you for the impressions, Shukla - allow me make the following point about interactions on the web, particularly abou the kinds of problems we discuss here:

First, people who participate in boards such as ours, are different from others, in the sense that they are willing to take a stand

and secondly, they tend to be concerned, if not not down right angry.

And since I'm no different, I must say I enjoyed reading your impressions and I articularly am impressed with the following obersations:

And most shocking of their behavior is - the identification of terrorists as Muslims. From what I've heard / seen generally all the terrorists are denounced as not having any religion as every religion teaches peace.
If a Mumbai terror attack happens and accused was a Muslim then he is denounced from religion by one and all that he is not a Muslim. When a mosque is bombed its said a muslim can not bomb a mosque - HOW COME REMEMBER HE'S NOT A MUSLIM HE'S A TERRORIST

.

Pakistan overall seems to be confused nation

The root cause of this confusion are the lack of moral, ethical centers and leadership. As your post suggests, right/wrong and good/bad are criteria that are not applied in a universal sense, but in a tactical, ends justifies means, sense - it has it's place but it is no replacement for universal application.

Will this change any time soon?? no.

 

[IceCold]

First and foremost my heartfelt condolences to the family of deceased in the Mosque bombing. May God give then courage and strength to pull through this hardship. I have lost my uncle to a similar attack and I know how hard it is. The feelings are heartfelt and most honest.

But this is not the reason for the post. I have been a member of the forum for just a short while(about a month). I came in here with some expectations of having a healthy and enlightening discussions to gain some proper insight of the POV from the other side of fence. To understand what is it that is claiming lives of these innocents. What is the cause of this proxy war which has hit me too close for comfort. I came looking for some balanced individuals from Pakistan who would tell me what is the reason that my cousin has to live without her father for the rest of her life. What is the logic.

Infact I did come across some very reasonable and responsible members but sad to say they are in a severe minority. I hope you take this piece in the spirit in which it is written. It is a reflection of what is happening on this forum.

Here are some observations I've made and believe me I came here with a clean slate and no prejudices:

1. Pakistan overall seems to be confused nation. They have this overwhelming sense of patriotism and still the patriotism seems to work exactly the same way their religion is supposed to work - Pakistan is a good country and the only good country and all is working fine in Pakistan and the entire world is conspiring to weaken / destabilize it .

2. Similar belief in ISI and PA. Its ISI and Pakistan Army that has tied-up with America, It is ISI that is working in cahoots with them. If you all hate America so much, why not wage a long march against their illegal occupation on your land. Are the billions in aid the price for the lives for innocents being killed in Pakistan? If that is so tell us what's the tag you have put up on Kashmiris, We'll pay it and lets get over this chapter after that. It'll be far lesser than the regular Army spends and loss of lives of shaheeds India has to pay every week, month and year.
The all powerful ISI is yet to quote even an accused in Benazir killing, Mosque bombing Lahore attack etc.

3. They always have different scales of determining terrorists - If on Indian Territory they are Freedom Fighters if in Pakistan they are hardcore terrorists and if on America / Britain / other countries - they are not terrorists at all state planned strategic move.

4. If someone raises a question about Pakistan, everyone gets aggressive and point at similar elements in India. Yes, I agree we have truckloads of problems in India we accept them identify them and already working towards eliminating them.
Will this solve your problem?

5. The newly identified Hindu extremist / terror outfit seems to have given you all the more reason to blame India. Mind you it was the allegedly Hindu radical and Brahmin driven and repressive Indian police that uncovered this outfit like they should be. This is never acknowledged. I have frequently seen Varun Gandhi’s name floating around, and no one mentions that he’s not only barred from contesting elections but warrant has been issued and He’ll be surrendering / arrested very soon.
6. And most shocking of their behavior is - the identification of terrorists as Muslims. From what I've heard / seen generally all the terrorists are denounced as not having any religion as every religion teaches peace.
If a Mumbai terror attack happens and accused was a Muslim then he is denounced from religion by one and all that he is not a Muslim. When a mosque is bombed its said a muslim can not bomb a mosque - HOW COME REMEMBER HE'S NOT A MUSLIM HE'S A TERRORIST.

7. My final request - Please don’t follow blindly. The way I see it Army and ISI just want an important role for themselves and create insecurity for Pakistanis by their propaganda. They want to shy away from accountability. The other day I read about several public and privately owned enterprises were being run by army with zero accountability.

I have supporting posts / videos / Neutral party articles for each of the above mentioned points if you wish I can produce them.

Finally, I do not want to start a fight but willing for a healthy discussion. I am plainly stating my analysis of what I've observed in this forum in last month. I know I have no authority to comment on Pakistani way of life leave alone suggesting improvements. But I am plainly stating my viewpoint. If mods find it inflammatory - you are free to boot me out and delete this post. But I will make this statement that it was heartless of dabong1 and others making imflamatory comments of killing all indians and all Jihadi crap. May god never make you experience a loss so deep. Guys we are not at war. We have differences but that does not mean pulling down someone who has been killed be it on either side of the border.

Regards

Allow me to put some insight to this from a Pakistani point of view. You see while i agree that we are equally responsible for our misery and i have stated the very same in mosque bombing thread, however much of how Pakistanis feel is not because we are a confused nation but from the Past experience.

From a Pakistani point of view our eastern wing was cut by India and its proxy war against Pakistan, how do you think it feels when a part of your body is cut and is no longer there, let me tell you it hurts and hurts like hell and the thought of it no longer being there burns the soul in hatred, a hatred that might consume all and still not satisfy enough.

Pakistan has always being in a tough position, to live next to an enemy twice your size and strength, you need to cope with the fact and for that you need favors, favors that might inturn force you to say yes to demands that other wise are totally unacceptable. During the afghan war, if Pakistan hadnt stoped the russians, we might would have seen a USSR flag in peshwar, but at what cost and most importantly when the russians were defeated, US instead of staying there a bit longer and helping Pakistan stabilizing Afghanistan, left and today we are facing the Holocaust of that decision and in the end because Pakistan shares the damn border with Afghanistan, we suffer the most, not the US and not India.

Moreover because we are the only muslim nuclear power country in the world, we have to suffer the hate that is often seen in various forms in the international stage, what impression would you think will leave that on Pakistan and its people, let me tell you that indeed a proxy war has been set against us, a few countries including India are hell bent on stripping Pakistan from is nuclear weapons and that is why conspiracies are being laid and we are not wrong in thinking like that because the truth lies very much close to it if not.

I will try to put some more input into this at a latter time and try to answer most of your raised questions about Pakistan from a Pakistani POV.

 

[Torpedo]

From a Pakistani point of view our eastern wing was cut by India and its proxy war against Pakistan, how do you think it feels when a part of your body is cut and is no longer there, let me tell you it hurts and hurts like hell and the thought of it no longer being there burns the soul in hatred, a hatred that might consume all and still not satisfy enough.

And as usual, you conveniently forgot to mention the reasons behind formation of BD.

Wasn't it necessary for India for its own survival? Wasn't Pakistan responsible for its negligence towards 'eastern wing'? YOU are responsible for this. Pakisatni leaders had to hide this. So, thy simply pointed at India.

 

[Torpedo]

Moreover because we are the only muslim nuclear power country in the world, we have to suffer the hate that is often seen in various forms in the international stage, what impression would you think will leave that on Pakistan and its people, let me tell you that indeed a proxy war has been set against us, a few countries including India are hell bent on stripping Pakistan from is nuclear weapons and that is why conspiracies are being laid and we are not wrong in thinking like that because the truth lies very much close to it if not.

This is another convenient inference often drawn by Pakistanis.

Just look around you. How much chaos, confusion, noise, fighting going amongst Pakistanis. And it is same at all layers. From common people to the President.

All the nations have enemies. But Pakistani leaders and hence Pakistani people have failed in choosing right things. Those were Pakistani mouths who cursed Zardari as well as Nawaz Sharif. Those were Pakistani hands who rained stones on Police and sticks on lawyers in long march.

 

[IceCold]

And as usual, you conveniently forgot to mention the reasons behind formation of BD.

Wasn't it necessary for India for its own survival? Wasn't Pakistan responsible for its negligence towards 'eastern wing'? YOU are responsible for this. Pakisatni leaders had to hide this. So, thy simply pointed at India.

These are your reasons not ours, let us cut a part of India first and then we can discuss the reasons latter and how does it feel.
By the way don't whine when we talk about Kashmir then.

 

[Goodperson]

These are your reasons not ours, let us cut a part of India first and then we can discuss the reasons latter and how does it feel.
By the way don't whine when we talk about Kashmir then.

Both Pakistan and Bangladesh have grievance against India there are many Bangladeshis here who support Pakistan, many times I wonder why both cannot be one nation.

 

[shukla_swapnil]

Thank you for the impressions, Shukla - allow me make the following point about interactions on the web, particularly abou the kinds of problems we discuss here:

First, people who participate in boards such as ours, are different from others, in the sense that they are willing to take a stand

and secondly, they tend to be concerned, if not not down right angry.

And since I'm no different, I must say I enjoyed reading your impressions and I articularly am impressed with the following obersations:

.




The root cause of this confusion are the lack of moral, ethical centers and leadership. As your post suggests, right/wrong and good/bad are criteria that are not applied in a universal sense, but in a tactical, ends justifies means, sense - it has it's place but it is no replacement for universal application.

Will this change any time soon?? no.

Hmm yeah I have found myself agreeing with your opinions more often than not. Also I think its difficult to be impartial and logical when the nation itself has threats from so many different fronts. You guys are braving it out against an extremely weak govt., an uconditional dependence on America and a rogue state like Afghanistan on one side with not to mention a potent opponent India on the other. The enviornment is not conginial to foster very rightious and idiological thinking.

I know change will be hard to come by but that does not mean you should quit trying. My best wishes are with you.

 

[shukla_swapnil]

Allow me to put some insight to this from a Pakistani point of view. You see while i agree that we are equally responsible for our misery and i have stated the very same in mosque bombing thread, however much of how Pakistanis feel is not because we are a confused nation but from the Past experience.

From a Pakistani point of view our eastern wing was cut by India and its proxy war against Pakistan, how do you think it feels when a part of your body is cut and is no longer there, let me tell you it hurts and hurts like hell and the thought of it no longer being there burns the soul in hatred, a hatred that might consume all and still not satisfy enough.

Pakistan has always being in a tough position, to live next to an enemy twice your size and strength, you need to cope with the fact and for that you need favors, favors that might inturn force you to say yes to demands that other wise are totally unacceptable. During the afghan war, if Pakistan hadnt stoped the russians, we might would have seen a USSR flag in peshwar, but at what cost and most importantly when the russians were defeated, US instead of staying there a bit longer and helping Pakistan stabilizing Afghanistan, left and today we are facing the Holocaust of that decision and in the end because Pakistan shares the damn border with Afghanistan, we suffer the most, not the US and not India.

Moreover because we are the only muslim nuclear power country in the world, we have to suffer the hate that is often seen in various forms in the international stage, what impression would you think will leave that on Pakistan and its people, let me tell you that indeed a proxy war has been set against us, a few countries including India are hell bent on stripping Pakistan from is nuclear weapons and that is why conspiracies are being laid and we are not wrong in thinking like that because the truth lies very much close to it if not.

I will try to put some more input into this at a latter time and try to answer most of your raised questions about Pakistan from a Pakistani POV.

Formation of Bangladesh was a major turn-up in the flow of events but we already had a war even prior to its creation. India interfered in Bangladesh only when over a million refugees moved base to India and also Bangladesh was facing some major issues of mass genocides and rapes. They won the elections but they were denied any role in govt. Anyways a Eastern wing geographically separated by your biggest enemy would not be a very viable proposition.

I know what your response would be then how India can hold onto Kashmir if similar atrocities are being experienced there as well. We can have an endless debate over Simla agreement and UN resolution. One thing which everyone would accept though will be that neither India nor Pakistan will part away with their land. I am not trying to justify what is happening in Kashmir. I have a simple question to ask - If you are wronged once and you inflict the same wrongness onto others are you any better than the ones who wronged in the first place.

I have lost my uncle to a terror attack does it justify for me that I start hating all the people who belong to the community where this attack originated from and plan civilian bombings in its territory. No I choose the other way. I have taken up political science to study where I can hopefully be part of the civil administration which can make a difference and prevent such pain to be inflicted on others. Hope you get my point.

No-one wants to take away nuclear power from Pakistan. What people in India are concerned about is whether that power is in responsible hands and misadventures of Mr. Qadir have only intensified those concerns. If there are several troubled areas FATA, SWAT and Baluchistan and influence of Taliban and extremists increasing can you be absolutely certain that it'll stay out of their reach. Claims are made of anything like 107 Indian consulates if India in Afghanistan next someone say no only 32 one says 8 officially there are 4 but realistically do you really think Indians are dumb enough to run terror camp under the nose of some 42 countries present in Afghanistan. Will it not cause a major diplomatic catastrophe for India if they conducted such activities and were exposed?

When the world is united in the War on terror I think all Pakistan needs to do is to expoose Indian training camp and all the nations will turn against it in a flash and you can defeat India without a war. I dont think Indians will be dumb enough to do that.

 

[Torpedo]

These are your reasons not ours, let us cut a part of India first and then we can discuss the reasons latter and how does it feel.
By the way don't whine when we talk about Kashmir then.

OK. Just for a moment, let's assume your version of story is true.

But, according to that too, India assisted and not forced BD to get separated.

Clearly means - those fools, which Pakistan called its leaders, couldn't pay attention to almost 50% part of the nation! It was Indian leaders' duty to get rid of this situation. They did it and did it good, in India's interest. There would have been much more headache if Pakistan had covered India from both the sides.

Pakistan payed for it's mistake. Don't cry like a child. It had to happen.

 

[omerhhh]

No-one wants to take away nuclear power from Pakistan. What people in India are concerned about is whether that power is in responsible hands and misadventures of Mr. Qadir have only intensified those concerns.

That is just an excuse to take away nuclear power from the only muslim nation that has it everyone knows that the pakistani nukes are in safe hands and there is no way that a terrorist could get their hands on them.These weapons were created for India it is a matter of national survival for pakistan and no one can take them away from pakistan.alot of people say that nukes in pakistani hands are dangerous people predict nuclear winters and holocausts starting because pakistan carelessly fired them at india or if terrorists got them.That is not possible.

 

[shukla_swapnil]

That is just an excuse to take away nuclear power from the only muslim nation that has it everyone knows that the pakistani nukes are in safe hands and there is no way that a terrorist could get their hands on them.These weapons were created for India it is a matter of national survival for pakistan and no one can take them away from pakistan.alot of people say that nukes in pakistani hands are dangerous people predict nuclear winters and holocausts starting because pakistan carelessly fired them at india or if terrorists got them.That is not possible.

Same was said about the Sri Lankan cricket Team. No One could touch them and they are safe as they can be. Not exactly the case. And before you start off and open another front by quoting Mumbai and Parliament attack - I'd clearify. All targets in Mumbai were soft targets and no specific protection was meant for them. As for the Parliament - none of the terrorists were successful in getting even close to the main building. Sri Lankan cricket team were provided Presidential Security, thank god it was not the president there. Swat and FATA are officially beyong govt. control. Earlier many claims were made about situation being under control there as well. Baluch is another issue. Smell the trouble in the air. No one wants to take it away keep em but atleast keep em safe thats all we're bothered about.

ISI officials have tie up with Talibans. PA as well as public not really offended by whats happenening in SWAT. You said this was also not possible that Talibans would never gain a upper hand in Pakistan. It there for all to see.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

4. If someone raises a question about Pakistan, everyone gets aggressive and point at similar elements in India. Yes, I agree we have truckloads of problems in India we accept them identify them and already working towards eliminating them.
Will this solve your problem?

Regards

1. I am so Glad that i joined PDF , Just to have this moment, I shall answer all your points one by one. And hopefully clear your concepts in a befitting manner. Provided you keep reading and keep following this thread.

2. First of all today we shall get down to your claim of " We identify our problems" Part. Since you have posted what u think, ill will prove a bit diffent story to you. to avoid a conflict in all this process, you will answer me the following questions, in detail (There wont be any back outs) and no irrelevant chatter.

3. Answer the following questions. ( this is the problem part, once you answer the questions , we will get to know , the WE KNOW THEM part)

(a) How many separatist movements do you have?
(b) What all is common between, Bollywood movie and a true traditional Indian family?
(c) Do you claim to be a complete democratic, 1 rule for every man state?
(d) What all was a part of indian region, before around 1500 years ago?
(e) Tell me the precise Ingredients a multi religion and vibrant nation needs to have?
(f) What all factions do you identify as extremists?
(g) Is there any Act of constitution in your country that makes the elected member over and above the law?

4. I feel you must be an intellect an will surly answer my questions after some good Googling. And do answer them , we got a long path to cover up now. cuz Education "show them a mirror " starts today.

 

[jeypore]

1. I am so Glad that i joined PDF , Just to have this moment, I shall answer all your points one by one. And hopefully clear your concepts in a befitting manner. Provided you keep reading and keep following this thread.

2. First of all today we shall get down to your claim of " We identify our problems" Part. Since you have posted what u think, ill will prove a bit diffent story to you. to avoid a conflict in all this process, you will answer me the following questions, in detail (There wont be any back outs) and no irrelevant chatter.

3. Answer the following questions. ( this is the problem part, once you answer the questions , we will get to know , the WE KNOW THEM part)

(a) How many separatist movements do you have?
(b) What all is common between, Bollywood movie and a true traditional Indian family?
(c) Do you claim to be a complete democratic, 1 rule for every man state?
(d) What all was a part of indian region, before around 1500 years ago?
(e) Tell me the precise Ingredients a multi religion and vibrant nation needs to have?
(f) What all factions do you identify as extremists?
(g) Is there any Act of constitution in your country that makes the elected member over and above the law?

4. I feel you must be an intellect an will surly answer my questions after some good Googling. And do answer them , we got a long path to cover up now. cuz Education "show them a mirror " starts today.

So, the thread is about Pakistan Problems and trying to Change it to Indian problems are we!!!!!

 

[notsuperstitious]

1. I am so Glad that i joined PDF , Just to have this moment, I shall answer all your points one by one. And hopefully clear your concepts in a befitting manner. Provided you keep reading and keep following this thread.

2. First of all today we shall get down to your claim of " We identify our problems" Part. Since you have posted what u think, ill will prove a bit diffent story to you. to avoid a conflict in all this process, you will answer me the following questions, in detail (There wont be any back outs) and no irrelevant chatter.

3. Answer the following questions. ( this is the problem part, once you answer the questions , we will get to know , the WE KNOW THEM part)

(a) How many separatist movements do you have?
(b) What all is common between, Bollywood movie and a true traditional Indian family?
(c) Do you claim to be a complete democratic, 1 rule for every man state?
(d) What all was a part of indian region, before around 1500 years ago?
(e) Tell me the precise Ingredients a multi religion and vibrant nation needs to have?
(f) What all factions do you identify as extremists?
(g) Is there any Act of constitution in your country that makes the elected member over and above the law?

4. I feel you must be an intellect an will surly answer my questions after some good Googling. And do answer them , we got a long path to cover up now. cuz Education "show them a mirror " starts today.

Please open a new thread to discuss these issues, they are not linked to the topic.