Possible Solution of Kashmir issue...Your Opinion

[Icarus]

It is possible to have India - Pakistan relations has envisaged by you. We have lot in common, and the commonality and not Kashmir should be used to make the borders between India and Pakistan irreverent. I can go work in Lahore and you can buy Royal Enfield Classic without having to pay five times its price.

Ideally that should have been the case, that is why Track II diplomacy is a lot more successful in context of Pakistan and India as compared to Track I but even if we wish to resolve all our differences starting now, building a new perception afer decades of hate will take a lot of time.
I'd like to quote that example of a psychological study held with chimps in a cage with a ladder leading out to an open enclosure, every time a chimp would try and cross the ladder, it would get a mild electric shock and withdraw, until they stopped trying altogether and when the infants grew up, they never even bothered to try even though the shock mechanism had been disabled by then, they reconciled to their fate.
The new generation has more hate and venom in their hearts for the other, not because they have EVER fought against them but solely because they have seen it as the natural case and adopted it for themselves.

 

[NHUDA]

Which area held by the Chinese do you consider insignificant ?

Pakistan donot Consider Askai Chin as Part of Kashmir Region (it is India vs China) ... the Area of Kashmir hold by china is Mostly consist of shaksgam Rive (Valley) ..

Under the Trans Karakmoram Tract Pakistan & China decided to Settle thr OWN border dispute related to Kashmir Border .. The tract is one of the most inhospitable areas of the world, with some of the highest mountains. I have been to this Side of the Area ... K2 & All .. & thr is no Permanent Settlement neither on the Other side of the Border..

One more confusion required to be clear is that this Particular Adjustment does not mean Pakistan GAVE Away a Piece of Kashmir Land to China ...
1- the Region is so inhospitable that Pakistan even if it own tht Area no one will be able to cross the K2 & Gashebrums Massif to other side (except mountanieers)

2- The area was ALREADY controlled by china (due to Natural Barrier) & Hence The agreement resulted in China withdrawing thr Calims from Pakistan Side of the territory, and Pakistan withdrawing its claim of territory that, in practice, it neither occupied or administered.

 

[WAJsal]

I know for sure that plebiscite is never going to happen.

India pushed for it. You asked for it, should have happened long ago.

I know for sure that plebiscite is never going to happen.

That is because you are scared, as i have said before, India can't afford to take the chances, ever wondered why India doesn't want to talk on the issue? ciao.

 

[zip]

Make LOC as border and provide a choice for people of the state to migrate to their favoured country ..migrating people should be compensated in accordance with property they gonna loose by migrating ..It will be difficult for any govt to loose any stretch of country but people can move and money can change hands ..I don't think any other way is there to solve this problem

 

[third eye]

With all due respect sir, geo politics is never played keeping people in mind, both Pakistan and India will never want this issue solved, if one agrees the other person will deny, and for the same reason of backlash back in home, we saw the thing happening in UFA agreement with Pakistan, we will see the same reaction if tomorrow modi declares LOC as IB. Both the countries is thinking of buying time, making country economically, militarily and diplomatically powerful, whoever will make the GAP larger will be in better position to win kashmir.

To begin with Modi cannot declare the LOC into an IB by himself. He will have to take the nation into confidence, it would involve amending the constitution & much more.

I agree to the extent that the J&K issue has become an industry . An industry that keeps people & orgnisations relevant, keeps the money flowing .

It was a pragmatic NS who spoke at Ufa, it was the ' devils brigade' at home that set the cat among the pigeons.

Similarly, in India there will be a backlash - exploited by opposition ( never mind if they were about to do the same ) but far sighted , pragmatic & strong leaders on both sides are needed who have to bite the bullet for the sake of future generations.

One such leader exists on one side. He does not yet have the political strength .

 

[Icarus]

Well thanks for reminding me of my Royal Enfield - wonderful machine & wonderful memories.

In my opinion ( though some hot headed Indians would not agree) the J&K issue is not an intrinsic part of the Indian national psyche - at least not south of the Aravalis ( excluding Shiv Sena parts of Maharastra) and East of the Indo Gangetic plains.

It is still doable from the Indian side , it would take a lot of manoeuvring but just may be doable.

As regards Ayub not exploiting opportunities - he could not even if he wanted to, Pak was firmly into CENTO , remember spy flights were emanating from Peshawar. There is no way Ayub could have antagonised Uncle Sam in a manner that would suit the communists. Add the fact that the Missile crisis in Cube was just a year old. Stopping communists was high on the agenda. Ayub's popularity & Pak economy was dependent on US help.

Agreed, Pakistan and Kashmir are generally a North Indian concern, South Indians that I have met were generally detached from the conflict maybe because they did not carry the psychological baggage of the partition.
Your assessment of Ayub's actions with regards to the Cold War has it merits, however, Pakistan itself at that time was firmly a part of the anti-China camp, more so than India which had been a committed believer of the "Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai" doctrine. So even if Ayub had resorted to military adventurism in Kashmir, the US would have been very displeased but it would never have been interpreted as an action in support of communism. At the time, Pakistan was more uneasy of China than India was. Thus the collective defence initiative.

 

[danger007]

Yes sure but with the land also after changing the borders first.

just grab the Muslim population. .. lets convert Current boarders into IB...

 

[third eye]

Pakistan donot Consider Askai Chin as Part of Kashmir Region (it is India vs China) ... the Area of Kashmir hold by china is Mostly consist of shaksgam Rive (Valley) ..

Under the Trans Karakmoram Tract Pakistan & China decided to Settle thr OWN border dispute related to Kashmir Border .. The tract is one of the most inhospitable areas of the world, with some of the highest mountains. I have been to this Side of the Area ... K2 & All .. & thr is no Permanent Settlement neither on the Other side of the Border..

One more confusion required to be clear is that this Particular Adjustment does not mean Pakistan GAVE Away a Piece of Kashmir Land to China ...
1- the Region is so inhospitable that Pakistan even if it own tht Area no one will be able to cross the K2 & Gashebrums Massif to other side (except mountanieers)

2- The area was ALREADY controlled by china (due to Natural Barrier) & Hence The agreement resulted in China withdrawing thr Calims from Pakistan Side of the territory, and Pakistan withdrawing its claim of territory that, in practice, it neither occupied or administered.

What Pakistan considers or does not consider is of no consequence to India.

What matters to us is the areas under control of Hari Singh & his state which he signed to India.

 

[ito]

Ideally that should have been the case, that is why Track II diplomacy is a lot more successful in context of Pakistan and India as compared to Track I but even if we wish to resolve all our differences starting now, building a new perception afer decades of hate will take a lot of time.
I'd like to quote that example of a psychological study held with chimps in a cage with a ladder leading out to an open enclosure, every time a chimp would try and cross the ladder, it would get a mild electric shock and withdraw, until they stopped trying altogether and when the infants grew up, they never even bothered to try even though the shock mechanism had been disabled by then, they reconciled to their fate.
The new generation has more hate and venom in their hearts for the other, not because they have EVER fought against them but solely because they have seen it as the natural case and adopted it for themselves.

Sir, I have to agree with you on this. Now a days Indians are hating Pakistanis for sake of hating and vis-a-vis

 

[Icarus]

Public opinion can quickly change there are precedents for it. However leadership in both countries have to make sincere effort at rapprochement. Absence of any meddling in form of proxies is absolutely essential. Due importance must be given to concerns of the other parties even if they are not reasonable. Case in point Hurriyat Meeting Tamasha. Indian stance may be petty but it is important to Indians. Key to successful democracy is empathy with the other party.

Public opinion is malleable as long as it does not manifest from something that is rooted in public psyche. The "Atootang" and "Akhand Bharat" theory for Indians and "Fort of Islam" theory for Pakistan means that any attempt at rapprochement will be interpreted as a compromise against the very ideals that sustain the society in question.

 

[third eye]

Agreed, Pakistan and Kashmir are generally a North Indian concern, South Indians that I have met were generally detached from the conflict maybe because they did not carry the psychological baggage of the partition.
Your assessment of Ayub's actions with regards to the Cold War has it merits, however, Pakistan itself at that time was firmly a part of the anti-China camp, more so than India which had been a committed believer of the "Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai" doctrine. So even if Ayub had resorted to military adventurism in Kashmir, the US would have been very displeased but it would never have been interpreted as an action in support of communism. At the time, Pakistan was more uneasy of China than India was. Thus the collective defence initiative.

To take my point further you will be surprised how many of the young in North India too consider the J&K issue a waste of time.

Most today cannot even draw a near correct map of North India - not because the dont know but they find it foolish that we are still stuck in a time warp.

 

[Maarkhoor]

just grab the Muslim population. .. lets convert Current boarders into IB...

i told you we always welcome them and we will take our land back from you..Pls don't quote me further

 

[gau8av]

 

[Maarkhoor]

@Icarus
report trolling

 

[Icarus]

Sir, I have to agree with you on this. Now a days Indians are hating Pakistanis for sake of hating and vis-a-vis

Definitely, I was watching this video on Youtube the other day about a peace group that was asking people in the park of a very posh Delhi locality what they though of Pakistan and there were people who were saying that Pakistanis are not humans, they are all terrorists, they are scum, they should be eliminated.
The irony was, that these people were exactly like us, that hate included. They have heard what they have about Pakistan from TV and regurgitate the same but don't realize that if one of those chaps were to talk to someone from Pakistan, they'd find that it would be no different from talking to anybody down the street. We don't drink the blood of infants, we don't have a mullah in our backyard, we don't spend our free time by teaching children how to behead infidels.
Similar perception exists in Pakistan for Indians, rooted in a history of promoting hatred.


With all that pessimism, here's something to cool everyone down and give them some fuzzy feelings: