Poor, Poor Pitiful Us

[truthseer]

Zia was quite clear: the piper calls the tune, not he who pays him.

Which is why there must be a Zion, as for the foreseeable future there will be many murder-minded Muslims like yourself who treasure killing and robbing over the pursuit of happiness, holiness, and justice for all.

For those Muslims who can see beyond the bigotry - and I know you're out there - you will have to be bold in asserting that your values are superior to the bigots. You will, of course, have to publicly stand with Israel's Jews - if you don't you're sure to be accused of being a secret Zionist anyway. The trick - at least for Pakistanis - will be to avoid getting murdered for your boldness. Ultimately you'll want to seek a society where those who seek to kill people for what they say can themselves be jailed, prosecuted, and sentenced.

Oh, I don't mind Jews. Or Israel. I mind Zionists

 

[Jungibaaz]

@Solomon2 Typical response from you, exactly what I expected.

Ignore what the real point of issue of my post is, focus on an insignificant part of my post.
Focus on what flags I'm wearing and whether what I say has any merit accordingly.

In other words, deluding yourself.
Well, feel free to.

Those living in North Korea know a great deal about "one sided, naive views".

North Korea is best Korea!

Jokes aside, you don't understand the NK thing, it's to do with PDF members response to elections in Pakistan.
I am Pakistani and hold no love for the state of North Korea.

I sure am more qualified then you, that is, if you want to go by measure of who I am and where I live, where I've been.
I grew up in Pakistan and I hold Pakistani citizenship and somehow you in DC know more about my country than me.

Those familiar with Muslim militancy know that militants accuse non-Muslims of the very crimes they themselves are committing or seek to commit -

True. The above is true, however...
I know from experience debating with Americans and Indians that they hold the most naive and misguided views of this war on terror and the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan. I don't blame you folks for knowing any better, the one-sided propaganda you've been fed along with the classic information war techniques used straight from the third reich. I don't expect you to know any better...

But, with some of you, I expect you to be open minded in your views and not stubborn.
Those that are open minded who I debate with or other Pakistani members debate with, often change their views to an extent.
hell, I've seen people go full circle; from full blown Islamophobia to being sympathetic of our situation.

My one and only piece of advice, just between me and you...
Feel free to believe as you want, just keep an open mind and try to view things from different perspectives.

Now with my views on Pakistan and the WoT, I have been called a traitor and a non-Muslim. But that is because my views threaten people. I try to be as neutral as I can, I often criticize Pakistan. But don't expect my to sit idly by as you post such biased articles.

Like I said before, the article does state some correct facts, granted, but it's telling you only on side of the story and completely ignoring everything else. That, is not at all the truth, but a perversion of the truth.

otherwise in states like Pakistan minorities would be growing in population, rather than fleeing, and America would have shut its doors to Muslims or even kicked a substantial fraction out a decade ago, rather than remain welcoming.

I never once said that the Pakistani point of view is accurate, it too is one sided and extremely biased.
And for pointing that out, as said above, I've received a lot of hateful personal posts in this forum and in others.

However, that argument of yours is completely invalid.
The fact that Muslims flood the uS is less to do with agreeing with American foreign policy and less to do with agreeing the popular view in the US, more to do with the fact that they are economic migrants.

Thus your words, Jungibaaz, serve to indict you, not me and my fellow Americans.

As above, this post of yours was really a poorly put together excuse for a reply that missed the entirety of my main argument.
However, even here, your argument is completely invalid, you've dumbed down complex arguments with various perspectives and attempted to deal with it through basic logic.

Anyway, would you like me to post a detailed analysis of that article some time?
You completely ignored those lines in my post.

regards,

 

[Solomon2]

Oh, I don't mind Jews. Or Israel. I mind Zionists

Ah, the smile - it's like you didn't read what I wrote. The problem with "like Jews, hate Zionists" is, of course, that you're still embracing bigotry over justice - as well as endorsing the murder of half the world's Jews.

 

[truthseer]

Ah, the smile - it's like you didn't read what I wrote. The problem with "like Jews, hate Zionists" is, of course, that you're still embracing bigotry over justice - as well as endorsing the murder of half the world's Jews.

Nah, I endorse the killing of half of the supporters of theirs

 

[airmarshal]

The media keeps blaming Pakistan for Taliban. Afghanistan was a mess in 1995. To create stability and get the gas pipelines going, US and Pakistan needed a stability factor. So Taliban were created with US help. They did bring stability in Afghanistan but as we all know they were nut cases. Their stupid behaviour was used against them. This is no defence of Taliban but just stating the fact.

Pakistan must blame itself before blaming anyone. Its leaders have let it be used for other power's interests. What Pakistanis are getting is what they deserve. You will still see Pakistanis here appreciating what Musharraf or Zia did. They keep forgetting the irreparable damage they did to Pakistani society. Pakistani people cant see big picture and hence cant think big.

 

[Aslan]

where you from @soloman2 ?

are you a pakistani christian? or just a white guy?

He is confused, think he is a Semite.

 

[OrionHunter]

Factually seems ok.

Where was the focus ? India ,Pakistan, S Asia -- a meandering piece. Appears to have been written in bits hence the disconnect.

That's what I was thinking! However, the headline says, "Poor, Poor, Pitiful Us", meaning that we all are in the same boat - getting screwed from all sides.

In other words, we're up Sh!t Creek without a paddle!!

 

[M.harris]

He is confused, think he is a Semite.

He is a khazar a fake jew and pretend to be a children of Israeli believe me I know their kind very well.

 

[Solomon2]

@Solomon2 Typical response from you, exactly what I expected.

Good, good! That means I'm being consistent and that you're starting to get the message.

I sure am more qualified then you, that is, if you want to go by measure of who I am and where I live, where I've been.
I grew up in Pakistan and I hold Pakistani citizenship and somehow you in DC know more about my country than me.

It's a question of distance, perspective, and of course early acquaintance with the very Pakistanis who proved so adept at pulling the strings of Muslim Indians to create their own separate state with a virtually unaccountable military and only slightly more accountable bureaucracy.

There's a lot to be said for perspective. Think of the weather. I know my local weather pretty well. Gathering up a thousand weather reports from all around the nation I can get a good idea of what's going on nationally. But a photograph from a weather satellite makes the big picture clear instantly without one worrying about a thousand local conditions. That's why weather satellites are so useful - and that's the kind of perspective that's been cut out of your life due to the education you've received.

I've seen people go full circle; from full blown Islamophobia to being sympathetic of our situation.

"A phobia" doesn't denote fear but an unreasonable fear. If I wasn't sympathetic to Pakistanis situation I wouldn't remain here; and the best way I can help is by removing your blinders.

I know from experience debating with Americans and Indians that they hold the most naive and misguided views of this war on terror and the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Can't speak for everyone, but I'm always open to correction.

I don't blame you folks for knowing any better, the one-sided propaganda you've been fed -

America isn't Pakistan. We Americans discuss a wide range of views. (If anything, the only sort of views NOT discussed - at least by public figures - are things that would denigrate Islam.)

But, with some of you, I expect you to be open minded in your views and not stubborn.

As if the two are mutually exclusive!

My one and only piece of advice, just between me and you...Feel free to believe as you want, just keep an open mind and try to view things from different perspectives.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts" - late U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Now with my views on Pakistan and the WoT, I have been called a traitor and a non-Muslim. But that is because my views threaten people. I try to be as neutral as I can, I often criticize Pakistan. But don't expect my to sit idly by as you post such biased articles.

Far be it for me to wish you to be idle, rather than active!

Like I said before, the article does state some correct facts, granted, but it's telling you only on side of the story and completely ignoring everything else. That, is not at all the truth, but a perversion of the truth.

Now you have to be specific.

However, that argument of yours is completely invalid. The fact that Muslims flood the uS is less to do with agreeing with American foreign policy -

A red herring. This doesn't wash.

Nah, I endorse the killing of half of the supporters of theirs

I take your reply as your acceptance that I'm 100% correct - you just don't like it and don't want to change, that's all.

 

[truthseer]

Diary of an Israeli Shill | Veterans Today

I am writing here to come out of the closet as a paid shill. For a little over six months, I was paid to spread disinformation and argue political points on the Internet. This site, xxx, was NOT one that I was assigned to post on, although other people in the same organization were paid to be here, and I assume they still walk among you. But more on this later.
I quit this job in the latter part of 2011, because I became disgusted with it, and with myself. I realized I couldn’t look myself in the mirror anymore. If this confession triggers some kind of retribution against me, so be it. Part of being a real man in this world is having real values that you stand up for, no matter what the consequences.
My story begins in early 2011. I had been out of work for almost a year after losing my last job in tech support. Increasingly desperate and despondent, I jumped at the chance when a former co-worker called me up and said she had a possible lead for me.
“It is an unusual job, and one that requires secrecy. But the pay is good. And I know you are a good writer, so its something you are suited for.” (Writing has always been a hobby for me). She gave me only a phone-number and an address, in one of the seedier parts of San Francisco, where I live.
Intrigued, I asked her for the company’s URL and some more info. She laughed. “They don’t have a website. Or even a name. You’ll see. Just tell them I referred you.” Yes, it sounded suspicious, but long-term joblessness breeds desperation, and desperation has a funny way of overlooking the suspicious when it comes to putting food on the table.
The next day, I arrived at the address – the third floor in a crumbling building. The appearance of the place did not inspire confidence. After walking down a long, ****** linoleum-covered corridor lit by dimly-flickering halogen, I came to the entrance of the office itself: a crudely battered metal door with a sign that said “United Amalgamated Industries, Inc.,” (sounds like “Urban Movers&#8221.

Hasbaras like the ‘war’ thing – Something genetic
I later learned that this “company” changed its name almost monthly, always using bland names like that which gave no strong impression of what the company actually does. Not too hopeful, I went inside.
The interior was equally shabby. There were a few long tables with folding chairs, at which about a dozen people were tapping away on old, beat-up computers.
There were no decorations or ornaments of any type: not even the standard-issue office fica trees or plastic ferns. What a dump. Well, beggars can’t be choosers.
The manager, a balding man in his late forties, rose from the only stand-alone desk in the room and came forward with an easy smile. “You must be Chris. Yvette [my ex-co-worker] told me you’d be coming.” [Not our real names]. “Welcome. Let me tell you a little about what we do.”
No interview, nothing. I later learned they took people based solely on referral, and that the people making the referrals, like my ex-colleague Yvette, were trained to pick out candidates based on several factors including ability to keep one’s mouth shut, basic writing skills, and desperation for work.
We sat down at his desk and he began by asking me a few questions about myself and my background, including my political views (which were basically non-existent). Then he began to explain the job.
“We work on influencing people’s opinions here,” is how he described it. The company’s clients paid them to post on Internet message boards and popular chartrooms, as well as in gaming forums and social networks like Facebook and MySpace. Who were these clients? “Oh, various people,” he said vaguely. “Sometimes private companies, sometimes political groups.”
Satisfied that my political views were not strong, he said I would be assigned to political work. “The best people for this type of job are people like you, without strong views,” he said with a laugh. “It might seem counterintuitive, but actually we’ve found that to be the case.”
Well, OK. Fine. As long as it comes with a steady paycheck, I’d believe whatever they wanted me to believe, as the guy in Ghostbusters said. After discussing pay (which was much better than I’d hoped) and a few other details, he then went over the need for absolute privacy and secrecy.
“You can’t tell anyone what we do here. Not your wife, not your dog.” (I have neither, as it happens.) “We’ll give you a cover story and even a phone number and a fake website you can use. You will have to tell people you are a consultant. Since your background is in tech support, that will be your cover job. Is this going to be a problem for you?”

Cutting the heart out of the Internet – Industrial deception
I assured him it would not. “Well, OK. Shall we get started?” “Right now?” I asked, a bit taken aback. “No time like the present!” he said with a hearty laugh.
The rest of the day was taken up with training. Another staff member, a no-nonsense woman in her thirties, was to be my trainer, and training would only last two days. “You seem like a bright guy, you’ll get the hang of it pretty fast, I think,” she said. And indeed, the job was easier than I’d imagined.
My task was simple: I would be assigned to four different websites, with the goal of entering certain discussions and promoting a certain view.
I learned later that some of the personnel were assigned to internet message boards (like me), while others worked on Facebook or chatrooms. It seems these three types of media each have different strategy for shilling, and each shill concentrates on one of the three in particular.
My task? “To support Israel and counter anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic posters.” Fine with me. I had no opinions one way or another about Israel, and who likes anti-Semites and Nazis? Not me, anyway. But I didn’t know too much about the topic.
“That’s OK,” she said. “You’ll pick it up as you go along. For the most part, at first, you will be doing what we call “meme-patrol.” This is pretty easy. Later if you show promise, we’ll train you for more complex arguments, where more in-depth knowledge is necessary.”

Organized like an Espionage Operation
She handed me two binders with sheets enclosed in limp plastic. The first was labeled simply “Israel” in magic-marker on the cover, and it had two sections .
The first section contained basic background info on the topic. I would have to read and memorize some of this, as time went on. It had internet links for further reading, essays and talking points, and excerpts from some history books.
The second, and larger, section was called“Strat” (short for “strategy&#8221 with long lists of “dialogue pairs.” These were specific responses to specific postings. If a poster wrote something close to “X,” we were supposed to respond with something close to “Y.”
“You have to mix it up a bit, though,” said my trainer.“Otherwise it gets too obvious. Learn to use a thesaurus.”

This section also contained a number of hints for de-railing conversations that went too far away from what we were attempting.
These strategies included various forms of personal attacks, complaining to the forum moderators, smearing the characters of our opponents, using images and icons effectively, and even dragging the tone of the conversation down with sexual innuendo, links to pornography, or other such things.
“Sometimes we have to fight dirty,” or trainer told us. “Our opponents don’t hesitate to, so we can’t either.”
The second binder was smaller, and it contained information specific to the web sites I would be assigned to. The sites I would work were: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and a handful of smaller sites that rotated depending on need. As stated, I was NOT assigned to work xxx (although others in my group were), which is part of the reason I am posting this here, rather than elsewhere.
I wanted to post this on Godlike Productions at first, but they have banned me from even viewing that site for some reason (perhaps they are onto me?). But if somebody connected with this site can get the message to them, I think they should know about it, because that was the site I spent a good 70% of my time working on.
The site-specific info in the second binder included a brief history each site, including recent flame-wars, as well as info on what to avoid on each site so as not to get banned.
It also had quite detailed info on the moderators and the most popular regged posters on each site: location (if known), personality type, topics of interest, background sketch, and even some notes on how to “push the psychological buttons” of different posters. Although I didn’t work for xxx, I did see they had a lot of info on your so-called “WATS” posters here (the ones with gold borders around their edges). “Focus on the popular posters,” my trainer told me.
“These are the influential ones. Each of these is worth 50 to 100 of the lesser known names.” Each popular poster was classified as “hostile,” “friendly,” or “indifferent” to my goal. We were supposed to cultivate friendship with the friendly posters as well as the mods (basically, by brownnosing and sucking up), and there were even notes on strategies for dealing with specific hostile posters. The info was pretty detailed, but not perfect in every case.
“If you can convert one of the hostile posters from the enemy side to our side, you get a nice bonus. But this doesn’t happen too often, sadly. So mostly you’ll be attacking them and trying to smear them.”
At first, like I said, my job was “meme-patrol.” This was pretty simple and repetitive; it involved countering memes and introducing new memes, and didn’t demand much in-depth knowledge of the subject. Mostly just repetitive posting based on the dialogue pairs in the “Strat” section of the first binder.
A lot of my job was de-railing and spamming threads that didn’t go our way, or making accusations of racism and anti-Semitism. Sometimes I had to simply lie and claim a poster said something or did something “in another thread” they really hadn’t said or done
I felt bad about this…but in the end I felt worse about the possibility of losing the first job I’d been able to get since losing my “real” job.

For most trolls – It’s an empowerment thing.
The funny thing was, although I started the job with no strong opinions or political views, after a few weeks of this I became very emotionally wedded to the pro-Israel ideas I was pushing.
There must be some psychological factor at work…a good salesman learns to honestly love the products he’s selling, I guess.
It wasn’t long before my responses became fiery and passionate, and I began to learn more about the topic on my own. “This is a good sign,” my trainer told me. “It means you are ready for the next step: complex debate.”
The “complex debate” part of the job involved a fair amount of additional training, including memorizing more specific information about the specific posters (friendly and hostile) I’d be sparring with. Here, too, there were scripts and suggested lines of argument, but we were given more freedom.
There were a lot of details to this more advanced stage of the job – everything from how to select the right avatar to how to use“demotivationals” (humorous images with black borders that one finds floating around the web). Even the proper use of images of cats was discussed.
Sometimes we used faked or photo-shopped images or doctored news reports (something else that bothered me).
I was also given the job of tying to find new recruits, people “like me” who had the personality type, ability to keep a secret, basic writing/thinking skills, and desperation necessary to sign on a shill. I was less successful at this part of the job, though, and I couldn’t find another in the time I was there.
After a while of doing this, I started to feel bad. Not because of the views I was pushing (as I said, I was first apolitical, then pro-Israel), but because of the dishonesty involved. If my arguments were so correct, I wondered, why did we have to do this in the first place? Shouldn’t truth propagate itself naturally, rather than through, well…propaganda?
And who was behind this whole operation, anyway? Who was signing my paychecks? The stress of lying to my parents and friends about being a “consultant” was also getting to me. Finally, I said enough was enough.

A lot of Israelis and Jews do it for free – The rest for the money, and they have a lot of money to spend on this.
I quit in September 2011. Since then I’ve been working a series of unglamorous temp office jobs for lower pay. But at least I’m not making my living lying and heckling people who come online to express their views and exercise freedom of speech.
A few days ago I happened to be in the same neighborhood and on a whim thought I’d check out the old office. It turns out the operation is gone, having moved on.
This, too, I understood, is part of their strategy: Don’t stay in the same place for too long, don’t keep the same name too long, move on after half a year or so.
Keeping a low profile, finding new employees through word of mouth: All this is part of the shill way of life. But it is a deceptive way of life, and no matter how noble the goals (I remain pro-Israel, by the way), these sleazy means cannot be justified by the end.
This is my confession. I haven’t made up my mind yet about whether I want to talk more about this, so if I don’t respond to this thread, don’t be angry.

 

[Solomon2]

^^^^Completely OT, suggest u start separate thread.