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Political rights in China

RobbieS

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Guys, I had this discussion a couple of days back with a friend and were comparing different forms of government - democratic, republic, authoritarian etc. The point where we got stuck was around political rights in non-democratic countries.

How do people exercise their political rights in China? By political rights I mean the right to complain against their government and if need be change it. In a democracy if the public ain't happy with one party they vote them out and bring somebody else in, for better or worse! But how do things work out in China? What options do the Chinese people have in case they aren't pleased with their government?
I am not going to bring in N. Korea as thats an extreme example. But China, being a capitalist (well, sort of) yet non-democratic country, I was curious to know about.

And I hope people don't take it the wrong way. Just wanted to know thats all. I could have Googled but I thought I should first hear it from the Chinese members in this forum who might have seen things first hand. So dccafe, conworldus, sinoindus, feifanke and the gang, what do you think?

P.S. If the Mods think this ain't the right forum for this topic, feel free to move it to the member's club. I wanted to get the attention of the Chinese members specifically, hence I posted it here.
 
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You are right on that in China, voting rights is lacking. However, you should understand this: no political system, democratic or not, can sustain without the support of the populous majority. If the system has lost the support of the majority, then it is a matter of time it will fall.

I can tell you this, the CCP still has the support of China's majority. In fact, last survey I remember showed 87% support. This is why the "political rights" is actually of very little importance in China. You can call it a tyranny, but it is the tyranny of the majority.
 
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You are right on that in China, voting rights is lacking. However, you should understand this: no political system, democratic or not, can sustain without the support of the populous majority. If the system has lost the support of the majority, then it is a matter of time it will fall.

I can tell you this, the CCP still has the support of China's majority. In fact, last survey I remember showed 87% support. This is why the "political rights" is actually of very little importance in China. You can call it a tyranny, but it is the tyranny of the majority.

But man, surveys aren't fool proof, are they? And at best what percentage of the total population is included in the sample size? 1%? That would mean a survey of 1.4 mln people which is impossible.

I don't mean to flame or anything, but wouldn't some kind of voting rights have avoided incidents like Tianmen Square? I mean if those students had an option they would have generated mass support for their demands rather than a one-night demonstration that ended tragically for many.

And you are right about the majority thing. Its not the best form of govt. Especially when a guy can win with 51% of the votes. What happens to the views of the 49% of the people who voted for the other candidate? Forgotten.

But I guess in the end, the form of govt. doesn't matter. The quality of the people who form the govt. is what matters.
 
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But man, surveys aren't fool proof, are they? And at best what percentage of the total population is included in the sample size? 1%? That would mean a survey of 1.4 mln people which is impossible.

I don't mean to flame or anything, but wouldn't some kind of voting rights have avoided incidents like Tianmen Square? I mean if those students had an option they would have generated mass support for their demands rather than a one-night demonstration that ended tragically for many.

And you are right about the majority thing. Its not the best form of govt. Especially when a guy can win with 51% of the votes. What happens to the views of the 49% of the people who voted for the other candidate? Forgotten.

But I guess in the end, the form of govt. doesn't matter. The quality of the people who form the govt. is what matters.

As peoples living improving dramatically, they eventually support their government, and the fact is, they are improving.
Voting does not necessary means better~~
At least i wouldn't want my country to look like India~~
What an obvious example...
*You might consider nothing wrong with India, go outside and ask any foreigners, ask them about it...
*Yes, we admit and know China has its problems, but we obviously are changing, progressing fast... the world won't wait for us. We have similar problems, India and China, but due to our government structure, our progress are just much faster than India.

By the way, I pity you for not knowing your mother nation's problems, or you either know it but unwilling to admit it... does your mother nation have true democracy? if your answer is yes, then there is no point continuing this conversation with one as ignorant as you are.
 
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As peoples living improving dramatically, they eventually support their government, and the fact is, they are improving.
Voting does not necessary means better~~
At least i wouldn't want my country to look like India~~
What an obvious example...
*You might consider nothing wrong with India, go outside and ask any foreigners, ask them about it....

I completely agree that voting doesn't necessarily means better living conditions. If at all it creates problems when a govt. is on a roll.

But in mentioning India, you took a bad example there. Look at US/UK. They are democratic nations and they are doing well aren't they? When I think of reasons why India is behind China, I don't give a lot of credit to the drawbacks of democracy. It has its share of evils for a country that is so diverse that the dialect/accent changes every 100 kms. I'd give most credit to China's headstart in introducing economic reforms. China started 10 years early and that is exactly the gap between those the nations today.
 
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Here's an article that I read last week. Its quite similar to what we are discussing. I agree with a lot of things the writer has to say. Let me know what you guys think of it.

India's selfish elite holds the Republic back - All That Matters - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India


It is perplexing how the world’s most populous democracy is so flawed. How can a country, whose elections are cited as an exuberant example of
people-power, produce governments that serve their people so badly?

As an outsider, it would be inappropriate to enter into the debate about India’s internal political structures. But the broader picture is troubling: the extent to which the aspirations and behaviour of citizens in the so-called democracies and authoritarian regimes have converged over the past 20 years of globalization.

From Mumbai to Shanghai to Dubai (to coin that phrase of whizkid financiers), via London and New York, we have witnessed the erosion of liberties in our seemingly insatiable quest for wealth and our urge for an illusory security.
The model for this new world order is Singapore. The city-state has a large number of well-educated and well-travelled people keen to defend a system that requires an almost complete abrogation of freedom of expression in return for a good material life. This is the pact. In each country it varies; citizens hand over different freedoms in accordance with their own customs and priorities.

Barrington Moore’s theories of “no bourgeoisie, no democracy” have been disavowed by these two decades of uber materialism. When the Berlin Wall fell in 1989, the assumption was that free markets and free societies would work in perfect harmony. Instead, people in all countries found a way to disengage from the political process while seeking greater comfort.
Consumerism provided the ultimate anaesthetic.

Economic growth, rather than being a force for democratic involvement, reinforced the confidence of business and political elites. These neo-liberal advocates became consumed by their own intellectual overshoot, redefining democracy and liberty through notions such as privatization, profit maximization, disdain for the needs of civil society and social justice.

What matters, particularly for the middle class, are ‘private freedoms’ — the right to own property; to run businesses according to contract law; the right to travel unimpeded and the right to determine one’s own personal life. The pre-eminent freedom is financial — the right to earn money and consume it unimpeded. Public freedoms, such as free speech, free association and participatory politics become dispensable.

So where does India, with its raucous public discourse and its flamboyant democracy, come into this equation? As Pankaj Mishra points out, in order for India’s elite to fulfil its ambitions in a country of such poverty, inequality and misrule, it had to create a parallel universe. The events of November 26, 2008 changed that equation. Wealthy Indians’ fury at the Mumbai bombings arose from the realization that their pact had been broken. They never asked questions of the security forces when violence was meted out to the less fortunate. But what they did not expect, or take kindly to, was that their lives would be put at risk by incompetents at the home ministry, police department, army or intelligence services.

Till then, the wealthy had demanded little from the state and received only what they needed, such as the right to avoid fair taxation. They did not have to rely on lamentable public services. Their air conditioned SUVs would glide over the uneven roads; their diesel-fed generators would smooth over the cracks in the energy supply. The elite had been happy to secede from active politics.

How different is this from other countries? Circumstances may vary but the trade-off remains the same in each country. It’s interesting to note the way the Indian and Chinese systems fare in the delivery of good governance and liberty. In China, most of the wealthy find the small pro-democracy movement an encumbrance. These political activists are disturbing the pact that ensures one-party hegemony in return for social stability, continual economic growth and respect for ‘private’ freedoms.

In return, individuals do not meddle with the state. Pallavi Aiyar, a journalist recently based in China, offers this neat comparison: “While in China the Communist Party derived its legitimacy from delivering growth, in India a government derived its legitimacy simply from having been voted in.” She adds, “The legitimacy of democracy in many ways absolved Indian governments from the necessity of performing. The Chinese Communist Party could afford no such luxury.”

The problem in India, particularly since economic liberalization in 1991, is not wealth creation. Nor is it democratic institutions. It is governance, the inability to deliver freedoms for the vast majority of its people. Politics and business have worked together to use power as a means of enrichment. The comfortable classes could have been active in the public realm. Unlike in authoritarian states, they would not have been punished for causing trouble. They chose not to. The level of complicity is, therefore, surely higher.
 
.
Here's an article that I read last week. Its quite similar to what we are discussing. I agree with a lot of things the writer has to say. Let me know what you guys think of it.

India's selfish elite holds the Republic back - All That Matters - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India


It is perplexing how the world’s most populous democracy is so flawed. How can a country, whose elections are cited as an exuberant example of
people-power, produce governments that serve their people so badly?

As an outsider, it would be inappropriate to enter into the debate about India’s internal political structures. But the broader picture is troubling: the extent to which the aspirations and behaviour of citizens in the so-called democracies and authoritarian regimes have converged over the past 20 years of globalization.

From Mumbai to Shanghai to Dubai (to coin that phrase of whizkid financiers), via London and New York, we have witnessed the erosion of liberties in our seemingly insatiable quest for wealth and our urge for an illusory security.
The model for this new world order is Singapore. The city-state has a large number of well-educated and well-travelled people keen to defend a system that requires an almost complete abrogation of freedom of expression in return for a good material life. This is the pact. In each country it varies; citizens hand over different freedoms in accordance with their own customs and priorities.

Barrington Moore’s theories of “no bourgeoisie, no democracy” have been disavowed by these two decades of uber materialism. When the Berlin Wall fell in 1989, the assumption was that free markets and free societies would work in perfect harmony. Instead, people in all countries found a way to disengage from the political process while seeking greater comfort.
Consumerism provided the ultimate anaesthetic.

Economic growth, rather than being a force for democratic involvement, reinforced the confidence of business and political elites. These neo-liberal advocates became consumed by their own intellectual overshoot, redefining democracy and liberty through notions such as privatization, profit maximization, disdain for the needs of civil society and social justice.

What matters, particularly for the middle class, are ‘private freedoms’ — the right to own property; to run businesses according to contract law; the right to travel unimpeded and the right to determine one’s own personal life. The pre-eminent freedom is financial — the right to earn money and consume it unimpeded. Public freedoms, such as free speech, free association and participatory politics become dispensable.

So where does India, with its raucous public discourse and its flamboyant democracy, come into this equation? As Pankaj Mishra points out, in order for India’s elite to fulfil its ambitions in a country of such poverty, inequality and misrule, it had to create a parallel universe. The events of November 26, 2008 changed that equation. Wealthy Indians’ fury at the Mumbai bombings arose from the realization that their pact had been broken. They never asked questions of the security forces when violence was meted out to the less fortunate. But what they did not expect, or take kindly to, was that their lives would be put at risk by incompetents at the home ministry, police department, army or intelligence services.

Till then, the wealthy had demanded little from the state and received only what they needed, such as the right to avoid fair taxation. They did not have to rely on lamentable public services. Their air conditioned SUVs would glide over the uneven roads; their diesel-fed generators would smooth over the cracks in the energy supply. The elite had been happy to secede from active politics.

How different is this from other countries? Circumstances may vary but the trade-off remains the same in each country. It’s interesting to note the way the Indian and Chinese systems fare in the delivery of good governance and liberty. In China, most of the wealthy find the small pro-democracy movement an encumbrance. These political activists are disturbing the pact that ensures one-party hegemony in return for social stability, continual economic growth and respect for ‘private’ freedoms.

In return, individuals do not meddle with the state. Pallavi Aiyar, a journalist recently based in China, offers this neat comparison: “While in China the Communist Party derived its legitimacy from delivering growth, in India a government derived its legitimacy simply from having been voted in.” She adds, “The legitimacy of democracy in many ways absolved Indian governments from the necessity of performing. The Chinese Communist Party could afford no such luxury.”

The problem in India, particularly since economic liberalization in 1991, is not wealth creation. Nor is it democratic institutions. It is governance, the inability to deliver freedoms for the vast majority of its people. Politics and business have worked together to use power as a means of enrichment. The comfortable classes could have been active in the public realm. Unlike in authoritarian states, they would not have been punished for causing trouble. They chose not to. The level of complicity is, therefore, surely higher.

You should be posting this in "India Defense"...
Not in China Defense....


This is "Political rights in China"
by the way, this thread should be done and final, there is no point posting India problems here, you should be telling this to other Indians...
 
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Guys, I had this discussion a couple of days back with a friend and were comparing different forms of government - democratic, republic, authoritarian etc. The point where we got stuck was around political rights in non-democratic countries.

...

I completely agree with many that freedom and liberty are the essence that humans are striving for, everyone. But please bear in mind that one’s freedom has to be compromised in order not to infringe that of the others’.

A good political system should enable people to forward along this direction. Bad system doesn’t.

There are myriads of political/potential political systems for human society. Event among what you called "democratic systems", different results can yield by different practices.

For instance, Japanese democracy has quite different results from the Philippines’ democracy. India democracy gets different results from US democracy…and so on.

My personal finding is that a good system is a system that must fit the social soil of a country and can help forward the society, regardless what you call that system. As the country gets advanced, the system should be modified accordingly to keep helping the country develop further.

For instance, earlier American democracy is very limited, starting from New England area, where only white male with properties could vote. Female, American Indians, property-less male, etc. were all excluded. Why? If “hooligans” outnumber “gentlemen”, democracy, a game-play based on number, won’t work for “good”, but “evil”.

Our resources are always limited. A political system defines a rule of how to share the pie among people, be it despotism or democracy.

Material freedom is the infrastructure upon which other types of freedoms build.

Americans’ democracy is a democracy for the few Michael Parenti: Democracy For the Few. Nonetheless, “as river rises so the boat”. US has 4% of world population, but consumes 25% of the world energy. Even poor people can have a decent share of material richness compared with those in developing countries, though the percentage is so meager compared with that of the rich in the country. So even the poor in the country can have more liberty.

More advanced system needs more resources to run it. American democracy is a very expensive system, so is UK’s system. Take the judicial system for example, if no enough money were poured in, corrupting judges would be numerous; murder of righteous judges would be more.

For a poor country to practice an expensive system is not optimal, in general.
 
. .
I completely agree with many that freedom and liberty are the essence that humans are striving for, everyone. But please bear in mind that one’s freedom has to be compromised in order not to infringe that of the others’.

A good political system should enable people to forward along this direction. Bad system doesn’t.

There are myriads of political/potential political systems for human society. Event among what you called "democratic systems", different results can yield by different practices.

For instance, Japanese democracy has quite different results from the Philippines’ democracy. India democracy gets different results from US democracy…and so on.

My personal finding is that a good system is a system that must fit the social soil of a country and can help forward the society, regardless what you call that system. As the country gets advanced, the system should be modified accordingly to keep helping the country develop further.

For instance, earlier American democracy is very limited, starting from New England area, where only white male with properties could vote. Female, American Indians, property-less male, etc. were all excluded. Why? If “hooligans” outnumber “gentlemen”, democracy, a game-play based on number, won’t work for “good”, but “evil”.

Our resources are always limited. A political system defines a rule of how to share the pie among people, be it despotism or democracy.

Material freedom is the infrastructure upon which other types of freedoms build.

Americans’ democracy is a democracy for the few Michael Parenti: Democracy For the Few. Nonetheless, “as river rises so the boat”. US has 4% of world population, but consumes 25% of the world energy. Even poor people can have a decent share of material richness compared with those in developing countries, though the percentage is so meager compared with that of the rich in the country. So even the poor in the country can have more liberty.

More advanced system needs more resources to run it. American democracy is a very expensive system, so is UK’s system. Take the judicial system for example, if no enough money were poured in, corrupting judges would be numerous; murder of righteous judges would be more.

For a poor country to practice an expensive system is not optimal, in general.

Good point. very practical. It is somewhat like a big mortgage for a poor family. The family do enjoys living in the big house, at the expense of their food, furniture, cars, education, travelling, development, etc. Is it good or not? It depends on the feeling of the fmaily itself. We Chinese are generally conservative people. That situation will make us feel desperate. We better improve our income first, then we will definitely buy the big house.
 
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China is a communist country. No one votes, and there is no protesting or complaining otherwise you will be arrested.
 
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