Poland to provide Mig-29 to Ukraine - what should they get as replacement?

[Oldman1]

@jhungary From what I'm seeing in Turkish drone programs, they have some new drones but barely introduced since last year or so and another one that is in concept stage only, so the TB2s are pretty much the only alternative besides Predator drones or maybe the newer U.S. drones if they decide to give it to Ukraine. Looks like the Russian's got themselves an airbase near Kiev from the East, that random arrows that doesn't touch the borders. I deal with that so they can't resupply the eastern forces still trying to push through.

 

[jhungary]

Then the alternative is to get more Turkish drones and do massive attacks. I don't think any other European country has an attack drone of some kind. Only in concept or prototypes. Don't know if Turkey has something bigger to carry more payloads and in large quantities. Have to look.

If the U.S. is willing to push the limit, then No Fly Zone would be one option OR provide air support and launch attacks on Russian forces with none of our ground forces involved except for Ukraine's.

If I am the one in charge, I would probably start some sort of covert operation in Ukraine. That does not just limited on sending special force, but using the cover of existing infrastructure and operate under the disguise and participate in the war.

What I mean is, since there are Turkish drone already operating in Ukraine. I can ask Turkey to paint some of those drone in Ukrainian marking and have the Turkish or US operate them within their soil. And if they were down, that still give Ukrainian legitimate reason for why they are there. Overt help work too. But it cannot be completely depended on because it may escalate the entire thing.

Anyway, how many drone did Turkey have to begin with?

No Fly Zone is a no go, either NATO enforce a No Fly Zone that prohibit anyone to use Ukrainian airspace (including the Ukrainian) which would result in Russian armor advance being unchecked, or they are going to send NATO fighter to fight on behalf of Ukrainian, that's would start WW3.

The only reasonable solution is for US or Allied to send more advance anti-air system, not PAC, old stuff that even if they lost it to the Russian it wouldn't be a problem, so technically only MANPAD or older SAM like MIM-23 Hawk or MIM -72 Chaparral. There are still reasonable stock in Sweden and Portugal.

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary From what I'm seeing in Turkish drone programs, they have some new drones but barely introduced since last year or so and another one that is in concept stage only, so the TB2s are pretty much the only alternative besides Predator drones or maybe the newer U.S. drones if they decide to give it to Ukraine. Looks like the Russian's got themselves an airbase near Kiev from the East, that random arrows that doesn't touch the borders. I deal with that so they can't resupply the eastern forces still trying to push through.

Really depends.

As I said in the post above, you can sometime use something as a cover to conduct covert ops. So if "as I said before, my source did not confirmed it with me" US did transfer Predator Drone, that would be huge, because that open door to country that operate the same drone and use it in Ukraine without being "actively" involved.

And the issue with forward airbase is that it is prone to attack. There are still some mobile force that Ukraine can use, and the Ukrainian is hitting Russia with asymmetrical, so whether or not even Russia did surround Kyiv, I don't think that did matter much.. Because by then Russia would have pressure on both side, the one from inside Kyiv pushing out and the one that from the country side pushing in. If Russia is smart. they should brought the troop abreast to prevent a flanking attack, but I did not see them do it at all, at lease since yesterday.

 

[Destranator]

Russia should retalliate by deploying the ultimate nemesis of MiG-29's - one which can ground them indefinitely - the Begum Khaleda Zia.

@F-6 enthusiast @Bilal9 @Kharap Foa

 

[mhosein]

So the EU has offered to pay Bulgaria, Slovakia and Poland for their Russian fighter aircraft to arm Ukraine. They will then use EU funding to replace these aircraft.

Poland operates both F-16's and Mig-29's. Their Mig-29's are likely to be replaced by more F-16's (you'd think).

They're also scheduled to get F-35's. I wondered if Poland would be better off getting the EF2000 rather than the F-35? What do you guys think about how they compare?

If I am not mistaken, the Polish MiG-29s are former East German MiGs which West Germany received post Berlin Wall collapse. These were already modified by the Luftwaffe during the 1990s. The distinct feature of these MiGs was (still is) a centerline fuel tank, nestling between the two air-intake farings.

 

[Oldman1]

If I am the one in charge, I would probably start some sort of covert operation in Ukraine. That does not just limited on sending special force, but using the cover of existing infrastructure and operate under the disguise and participate in the war.

What I mean is, since there are Turkish drone already operating in Ukraine. I can ask Turkey to paint some of those drone in Ukrainian marking and have the Turkish or US operate them within their soil. And if they were down, that still give Ukrainian legitimate reason for why they are there. Overt help work too. But it cannot be completely depended on because it may escalate the entire thing.

Anyway, how many drone did Turkey have to begin with?

No Fly Zone is a no go, either NATO enforce a No Fly Zone that prohibit anyone to use Ukrainian airspace (including the Ukrainian) which would result in Russian armor advance being unchecked, or they are going to send NATO fighter to fight on behalf of Ukrainian, that's would start WW3.

The only reasonable solution is for US or Allied to send more advance anti-air system, not PAC, old stuff that even if they lost it to the Russian it wouldn't be a problem, so technically only MANPAD or older SAM like MIM-23 Hawk or MIM -72 Chaparral. There are still reasonable stock in Sweden and Portugal.

Perhaps Poland or other countries can help provide those Soviet or Russian design Tor or Buk missile platforms. Easy to transport or move in. Paint it with Ukrainian colors.

 

[jhungary]

Perhaps Poland or other countries can help provide those Soviet or Russian design Tor or Buk missile platforms. Easy to transport or move in. Paint it with Ukrainian colors.

If this is the case, you may as well ask the American or German sent in the Patriot missile. Buk or Tor are expensive. it would not be preferable.

Beside, I dont think Poland have neither, the only country in and around that have Tor is Greece. I doubt they will let that go, may be a few unit but then the Russian would know someone is supplying them weapon.

 

[Oldman1]

If this is the case, you may as well ask the American or German sent in the Patriot missile. Buk or Tor are expensive. it would not be preferable.

Beside, I dont think Poland have neither, the only country in and around that have Tor is Greece. I doubt they will let that go, may be a few unit but then the Russian would know someone is supplying them weapon.

Well the Ukrainians did get their hands on some. Wish they tell the Territorial troops and civilians to stop destroying some of the abandoned vehicles.

 

[Domobran7]

So the EU has offered to pay Bulgaria, Slovakia and Poland for their Russian fighter aircraft to arm Ukraine. They will then use EU funding to replace these aircraft.

Poland operates both F-16's and Mig-29's. Their Mig-29's are likely to be replaced by more F-16's (you'd think).

They're also scheduled to get F-35's. I wondered if Poland would be better off getting the EF2000 rather than the F-35? What do you guys think about how they compare?

I think best choice would be Gripen. One of major lessons of this war is that airfields are vulnerable indeed, and Gripen is the only fighter I know of that was specifically designed to operate against an overwhelming enemy force capable of establishing air superiority from the day one. What good will be F-35 if it cannot operate because air bases had been destroyed? Even if they will likely go for it as a tax for US cooperation...

 

[Oldman1]

This keeps up, we may not have to supply some air defense systems.

 

[Bilal9]

Well the Ukrainians did get their hands on some. Wish they tell the Territorial troops and civilians to stop destroying some of the abandoned vehicles.

Does anyone know what the symbols "Z" and "O" mean?

I know that Z marked vehicles were coming in through the Luhansk and Donetsk regions and O marked vehicles were invading through the Byelorussian border.

 

[jhungary]

Well the Ukrainians did get their hands on some. Wish they tell the Territorial troops and civilians to stop destroying some of the abandoned vehicles.

Well, they probably have better luck on capture AA rather than depend on US or EU to send them some article....

Does anyone know what the symbols "Z" and "O" mean?

I know that Z marked vehicles were coming in through the Luhansk and Donetsk regions and O marked vehicles were invading through the Byelorussian border.

Russian Military Marking: Why Z, O, V, X and A are written on Russian army vehicles, know the meaning of all these here - The Array Post

,

thearraypost.com

Z	Eastern Military District
Z in the box	Russian army stationed in Crimea
O	Russian army stationed in Belarus
V	Russian Naval Infantry
X	Kadyrov Chechnya
A	Alpha Ground Special Forces

 

[Oldman1]

@jhungary Any chance the U.S. can provide MiGs based in the States if Poland and others still hesitant? Both the military and the private companies use MiGs for training. Probably have more MiGs than most countries except Russia.

 

[Ali_Baba]

White House Says U.S., Poland Working on Warplanes for Ukraine

The U.S. is working with Poland and consulting with other NATO allies on possibly having those countries supply warplanes to Ukraine for use against Russian forces, a White House spokesperson said.

www.bloomberg.com

Still a work in progress it seems.

 

[Oldman1]

White House Says U.S., Poland Working on Warplanes for Ukraine

The U.S. is working with Poland and consulting with other NATO allies on possibly having those countries supply warplanes to Ukraine for use against Russian forces, a White House spokesperson said.

www.bloomberg.com

Still a work in progress it seems.

From what I'm reading in another article posted recently, Poland still doesn't want to give them up. Even with the Biden Administration and the lawmakers pressuring them.