It's not just Canada that has to agree. The US has to agree too. After all, you're competing against airlines from both countries.
That doesn't mean PIA shouldn't try and convince them both. I assume PIA already picks up passengers from Manchester before getting to JFK. They could do same with YVR-LAX, as the planes used on this route are a320 or smaller. People would like to travel with a 777 instead if they have plenty of luggage.
where no Japanese airlines serve Pakistan and only one Chinese airline and a very limited market.
Contradicts with your words
. Off the top off my head, PIA would be competing against American Airlines, United Airlines, Delta Airlines, Jet Blue, Air Canada, West Jet, Porter Airlines and probably others for 10 000s of pax every week.
Jet blue, delta and so forth do not service Pakistan either. So if Japan-China-Pakistan works out, so can USA-Can-Pak. Now this is just a theory of mine. I am not saying PIA should do this or not go to LAX at all. But considering they'd have to land somewhere before getting to LAX, like in the case of JFK, western Canada is a rather good place for that.
The 777 can easily land and takeoff from Leeds-Bradford.
I looked it up and there are contradictions with whether it can land there or not. Nonetheless, the traffic is probably not high enough to warranty a full 777 which can serve a better route. Again, this route is typical for a330 or 787. 777 can work out but it's hard to fill some 400ish seats.
Like I said, PIA had a monopoly in Chicago. It didn't make a difference. Load factors averaged 60%.
here's lots of Pakistanis in Chicago too.
So many Pakistanis that 60% load?
I guess not many Pakistanis then.
So there's the problem, load factor of 60%. There is a big problem in Canada, limited numbers of airlines serving middle east or south Asia. People in USA can hop on a flight from LAX to Dubai direct, or NY to Dubai direct with a large number of flights. Hence, PIA can't get away by charging premium prices.
In Canada, planes are smaller, a large restrictions on sizes and amount you can carry and YYZ being the only airport (AFAIK) that serves middle east (maybe YUL by Qatar). So for one to get to Pakistan, they have to pay ridiculous amount of fare (first domestic, then international. Even code shared tickets are pricey). One has to take a Canadian flight from YVR, YYC, mid Canada over to YYZ. All that time in air and in transit at YYZ is a waste of time and money. How long is the flight from Chicago to YYZ? Or EWR? or JFK?
I'll give another example, it's cheaper to fly with Lufthansa from LAX-YVR-JED (LAX-YVR is code share by Air Canada) than YVR-JED. Lufthansa charges way extra. For example, LAX-YVR-JED is $200ish cheaper than YVR-JED (both stopover in Germany). The flights are exactly the same and both flights have to depart from YVR before getting to Germany.
With low yielding Pakistani pax, even with fuel efficient aircraft like the 777 they couldn't make it work. There isn't a cat in hells chance they can make smaller markets on the West coast work.
And Western Canada will offer better seat factor due to a better monopoly. Chicago to major airports offering direct flights is quicker and cheaper than Western Canada.
If Air India, which serves a much larger market, has newer fuel efficient aircraft, is flying from a stable home base can't make money on it's North America and European routes, how is PIA expected to do the same?
You have to give me an actual example. What route is it making loss? Does it have a limit of slots for the airport? Any stop overs?
Most customers, especially Pakistani and Indian customers, book on the basis of price, regardless of whether the flight takes longer, is less comfortable etc. Even Air Canada is switching to 10 abreast on the 777 and it wouldn't surprise me if the 77W due next year for PIA also have 10 abreast in Y.
Than why introduce hindi movies, local flight attendents etc? People like to fly with fellow Pakistanis. That's why people fly in an a310 with PIA to middle east vs a330 by emirates or even 777. Soon. Qatar will add 787 for its Pakistan route. Why not go for something more comfortable?
And perhaps you didn't read my post earlier, PIA charges $1400 whereas Saudia charges $900 and Emirates charges about $1200. Why does PIA serve YYZ then? Either the management is mentally challenged in this case, or the 80%+ load factors are mentally challenged.
Given the choice to me, I'd take PIA when not going to Umrah. Why? 18 hours stay in hopeless airport in Saudia is worthless to me. I rather work and pay the extra money, eat Pakistani food, be in more 14 hour 9 abreast seat than cramped 10 seats in emirates. And it's not just me, its the 80%+ load factor who pay $1400+ for all this.
Also Air Canada is not changing most of its existent AC to 10 abreast. It depends on market. It uses 10 abreast for shorter routes (like YVR-YYZ or some 9 hours route) and 9 abreast for longer routes (YVR-LHR). They are getting newer aircrafts with 10 abreast but will keep old ones at 9 for very longer routes.
Emirates is a whole different story. People like the airlines and they don't have any other choice, for example, Pakistanis in LAX prefer Emirates due to direct dubai and then Pakistan flight. YYZ because emirates has only 3 slots and hence they use a380 and bigger capacity. And they have good load. If an airline can have good load with 10 abreast, why not? But I'd pay extra and fly PIA with its 9 abreast, Pakistani people, Pakistani food etc, as do others.
Whilst you're right in saying many will pay a premium, it is not enough to justify a 777 service nor even a 787 service for that matter.
That also contradicts with what you said earlier. You said people look at price than flight time and comfort. If that's the case, why pay premium?
PIA doesn't codeshare with Emirates. I was referring to the codeshare point made about Turkish Airlines.
Sure. My point was, Emirates offers 42 weekly flights and PIA offers 2. This means they're losing revenue. If emirates offers code share, PIA is STILL losing revenue. Sure it makes a buck or two, but the revenue is way behind.
This is a good thing. Competition in the market (more seats) drives down prices. If you can't compete, you don't belong. The Pakistani Govt should not be protecting the airline by restricting traffic rights to other countries. If ultimately that means the demise of PIA, then so be it.
No it's not a good thing. Suppose Air Canada allocated more slots to Emirates. It'd simply eat into the market of Air Canada. What was response of Air Canada? Emirates does not invest in our airports, as we do. Emirates is backed heavily by gov't, unlike us. Emirates is a hub, stealing passengers which we can serve instead.
This is a gov't. Not like Pakistan which let Emirates eat into PIA business and it doesn't have enough revenue to buy new jets. The gov't is there to protect its industries, not help foreigns shut down local business because they can compete better. Canada doesn't allow a large amount of foreign ownership for that reason.
Because Canada is not for sale, like Pakistan is.
In the short term, I would probably agree that PIA should go down the lease route.
And that is my point. Do you have to disagree with pretty much everything I say? PIA, in short term, needs aircrafts. It needs to lease, not buy. Who cares about long term when in short term you're getting ripped by competitors.
PIA is struggling to service it's debts
That's bad management. A plane shouldn't be flying if it's not making profit.
Actual price they're paying is $750mn or $150mn per 777.
Source? And still, they are taking money from the gov't. Instead, they should've leased and had asked gov't to pay some of its debts. So they have debts and they are taking more money, yippie!
And to argue with your pricing. So what if PIA got planes cheaper? My point was, with 750m or 1.5b, whatever the amount is, they could've rented 10 planes or more for entire year than have 5 planes. Those 10 planes could've created so much of profits. PIA needs planes. The planes will be arriving next year, for order that was placed years ago, with money stuck in between. They could've been leasing 11 a320s (for which they have little money and hence keep cancelling contracts).
You can't just turn up to Boeing or Airbus or any lessor and say I want x amount aircraft now. Understand there is a market, and models like the A330 and 777 are extremely popular. If you want 20, you're going to need to wait 2-3yrs. Also, it costs $1.2mn/month to lease a new 777 and over $14mn a year. For 20 aircraft, after 3 years, your $1Bn is gone with no assets to show for it.
Duh, you can't. And i don't think one leases from Boeing or Airbus for new aircraft. That is why there are leasing companies which had placed orders long ago. Lease from them. And 20 was an example, get as much as you can. Last tender they floated around, they were offered 10 737-800 and 8 a320, all arriving this year. But price wasn't very good I suppose. It just means lesser profits, but profits nonetheless.
No way you have to wait 2-3 years as leasing for older aircrafts are always ending. For example, the 8 a320 were leased to china airlines. Now that it expired, PIA wanted to acquire it. Or perhaps PIA offered a higher price or whatever.
And your math is correct with the last part, but tell me, have you never taken business or economics course? Who cares about assets? People sell assets if they're not making money. In 3 years with 20 aircrafts, you think PIA will be making samosas? Assuming all else equal, PIA would've easily pay off the 1.2b and still have profits to pay to lease new airplanes or even place cash order.
Emirates has little assets for it leases the airplanes. It doesn't care that at the end of the year it has little assets. It cares that it is making profits.
British Airways don't fly to Pakistan and haven't done so since the hotel bombing in Islamabad in 2008 (I think).
But emirates does. Read what I was trying to say, not pick what you like and disagree with it. When BA did fly, it offered pakistani culture aboard.
Competition is healthy. Learn it!
You have got to be the most stupid business man I've come across (if you're a businessman, which i doubt). Competition is healthy for consumers, never for business. You're speaking as an illitrate consumer, not as educated businessman.
Pakistan gov't has to protect its assets and not offer Pakistan for sale. I've given Canada as a role model.
You quote me like you're some high class educated man who knows how the world should be run.
But your last sentence, competition is healthy, just pathetic. No wonder Pakistan is going down the drain because many people, like you, live there and in PIA management.
People who consider emirates eating business of PIA as nothing to worry about.
People who consider purchasing aircrafts and waiting for arrival than leasing out and fill revenue gap.
And so forth.
And mind you, I'm not going to read any of your stupidity because it is a waste of time for me. I could be making money (As in the case of 18 hours transit time or flying uselessly) than respond to you any further. I didn't want to indulge with argument with you, but when you leave a stupid comment and tell someone to "learn," then you should be ready for some feedback on your thoughts.
Good day to you sir and I hope you take some business courses.
June 2, 2014
he new service means that
as of August 1, Emirates will offer passengers 14,185 seats each week on the route from Dubai, it stated.
Emirates to fly six times a day to Karachi | GulfNews.com
How much is a single ticket to Emirates? Times that by 14185 (not counting onwards flights from dubai). Divide by half. This is how much PIA is losing revenue.
Assuming a ticket to dubai costs $400. 14185*400/2 = $2,837,000 lost WEEKLY in revenue, just from Karachi. But thanks to crazy management and crazy people (As in this thread), PIA is keen on getting 777s next year than immediately getting a320s or equivlant and fill that revenue gap.
The reason I divide by two is because if you limit dubai flights, emirates will limit PIA flights. They both will meet at equal slots then.
And speaking of slots, do we know how much Qatar, flydubai and other airlines have purchased "Pakistan aviation for sale?" The 2.8m is just from Emirates, just for dubai-khi leg. Imagine revenue from other cities.
But as someone said, "competition is healthy." Yes, let Pakistan be sold for pennies, for competition is healthy.
Also can someone tell me how can PIA get 777 for half the price? Someone said they got it for 750m. A 300er costs some 320m, PIA bought for 175m!?!?
Also I think PIA should've placed order for 787. They could've gotten some 6 or 7 787s instead. These 787s could've served middle east and Europe (they fly cheaper too) and the 9 777s for North America. P.A.T.H.E.T.I.C PIA management.
