Pervez Hoodbhoy's Secular Delusion

[El Sidd]

The power of the clergy. We do have clergy. And they do have power.

Care to cite specific examples of this alleged Islamic Clergy and its infrastructure?

Islam teaches the same thing in every mosque.

If you are this paranoid about organised clergy, go protest in the Vatican or Qom or UK.

Pakistan is free of such evil. Alhumdulilah

 

[doorstar]

Maybe if Pakistanis had a philosophy of hard work and enterprise they wouldn't be as poor as they are.
Baba Jinnah exhorted us to "Kaam, Kaam aur Kaam".
Maybe the West, in this instance, has got it right.

more bollocks (in OP)! how long is it going to go on for? Prof. Hoodbhoy is not saying that Islamic education is backward but what passes for Islamic education in Pakistani madaaris run by the likes of diesel and lal masjid duo and others

 

[Redbeanpaste]

Yeah, like the Iraq invasion 2003, the destabilization of Libya, the intervention In Syria, the invasion of Iraq. Nothing to do with Western governments invading these countries under false pretexts or supporting terrorist organizations or propping up brutal dictators. It's all Islams fault

this will my last response to you. Basically you are saying that true Islam has the answer for everything in life other than invasions, dictators and interventions. Ok

 

[Longhorn]

Living in the West provides one some sense of security at times health, food and education. However, morally, it's a decayed and bankrupt society, children born out of wedlock, neglect of up bringing because to run a house hold requires at most 2 incomes and parents just aren't there. As the brother mentioned living hand-to-mouth in this society whereas one wrong decision can destroy you for good. In many places theirs no sense of family and cohesion -- the Nuclear Family mode is neutered. Theirs no feelings at times for another human being who's struggling -- during High School and College your very close to friends who would jump no matter what to help out, but once your in the real world it's as if they've forgotten everything that's happened and they don't even know you.

I think you need to understand and define morality.
Personal mores and morality are a very flexible topic they aren't a one size fits all. They vary from society to society and place to place. It depends on background, culture, history, religion, outlook etc.
What might appear immoral to someone in Pakistan may not appear immoral to someone in the West. Indeed, what might appear immoral to someone in a Pakistani village may not appear to be immoral to someone in a cosmopolitan Pakistani city. Personal morality depends on what is acceptable practice in a particular society. There are no hard and fast rules.
Yes, as a Muslim, some of the personal morality in the West may not be to your liking, but what you need to look at to evaluate morality in any given society is the morality on the collective or national level.
Compare the morality of the secular Western polity and that of it's Muslim Pakistani counterpart. A robust, free enterprise, tax paying, elected, regulated, accountable, welfare democracy against a feudal, exploitative, corrupt, lawless, sham, law of the jungle masquerading as a democracy. There really is no comparison.
When you look at it from that point of view then you begin to see the reality of where the moral decadence and decay is.
We need to get away from the concept of morality as who people marry, what they eat or drink, what they wear and whether they attend mosque or not, to concentrating on the morality, integrity, honesty of those who rule us and cleanliness and transparency of government, governance and society on a national level.

 

[Desert Fox]

this will my last response to you. Basically you are saying that true Islam has the answer for everything in life other than invasions, dictators and interventions. Ok

Lol butt hurt Libturd. I only applied your own logic here. Didn't like it I guess.

 

[V. Makarov]

As always, he is not all wrong. Although one can read between the lines to notice that he has a deep prejudice against the interference of religion in the affairs of the state but he has strong arguments for that prejudice.

For a progressive mind like Hoodbhoy, the constant failings of the leaders of Islam: The Mullahs who have hijacked the religion, culture and progress in Pakistan, have made him believe that Islamism in Pakistan is the root of all evil. He believes that a Pakistan free from the chains of religious "oppression" can prosper and become a developed nation. The only alternative ideology is naturally going to be Western secularim.

But for Pakistan, the problems only begin with toxic Islamism. The problems include bad institutions, bad system of government (democracy for the unlettered), culture of corruption and many other problems one lists on this forum every day. Saying that secularism will solve everything is wrong but at the same time, Pervaiz Hoodbhoy does not ONLY talk about secularism, but also about LEARNING from the Western method civilization building.

Now the OP comes with arguments such as failing marriages, legal bestiality in Canada (which is not true), and mental issues amoung the "Secular People" of the West as the reason for calling the Western system corrupt and a failure. Then OP moves forward by naming "failed secular states" like Mexico, Liberia and Romania without considering other factors such as Mexico being a trillion dollar economy with ongoing drug wars and overpopulation, corruption and a culture of laziness in Romania, and an environmental catastrophe ongoing in Liberia due to deforestation, as one of the major reasons for their failures.

You are not "researching" your conspiracy theory. You are just "conclusion Shopping" your prejudiced hypothesis.

I understand that secularism is not the answer to Pakistan's ills. But reading Hoodbhoy's articles always inspire me to look and learn from the West. I will not be learning "secularism" or anything that limits the rule of law of Islam in a state, but I will definitely learn from the West, the way how the made sure that religion does not become a hurdle in human evolution and progress in the field of science and technology.

Now just as an example, this Ramadan, the Mullah threw a fit when they learnt that they won't be announcing the sighting of the new moon for Eid. They claim that science must not cross paths with their tradition of physical sighting of the moon. Now this is toxic Islamism which I am strongly against. Any well read scientist like Pervez Hoodbhoy would have his blood boiling when the Mullahs hold a presser saying that "Muslim Scholars" should work separately from the Ministry of Science and Technology and Fawad Choudhary should mind his own business.

Pakistan needs a lot of treatment and much of that is going to be by learning the good things from the West specially considering that they learnt this stuff from us in our golden period. We just need to open our minds to realize that Islam (The Law of Allah on the Land) can go hand in hand with 21st century progress. Please try to learn that Islam is a religion till the end of time and without an expiry date.

 

[doorstar]

Lol butt hurt Libturd

when you get stuck start abusing the person, management loves it too (maybe because it livens up a convo/thread)

 

[Longhorn]

#enlightenedmoderation
#criticalthinking

I don't see why you've distilled Western civilization down to bestiality. It legal in some Western countries, illegal in some others. Indulge if you want to but it's not compulsory.
I personally don't agree with it but regardless of legality or otherwise it still goes on in every country in the world, Pakistan included.

Good work ethic has absolutely nothing to do with secularism.

In fact when the White overlords of our Pakistani libturds were busy slaughtering each other in the medieval era, it was Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who preached that honest work is a form of worship for the Muslim, and that no Muslim should be a taker (consumer) but rather a giver (producer).

"Hakim ibn Hizam, may Allah be pleased with him. narrated that the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: «The hand which gives is better than which takes and start giving first to your dependents."

"The Prophet said: ‘Verily, Allah loves that when anyone of you does something he does it perfectly.’ [Al Bukhari]"

I know that for Pakistani libturds who will worship the feces of their white colonial master this might be a shocking fact, but Islam already has addressed every concern and issue of life.

We'll, shame on us for calling ourselves Muslim while not following it's basic teachings.

 

[Desert Fox]

when you get stuck start abusing the person,

Takes one to know one

 

[Longhorn]

more bollocks (in OP)! how long is it going to go on for? Prof. Hoodbhoy is not saying that Islamic education is backward but what passes for Islamic education in Pakistani madaaris run by the likes of diesel and lal masjid duo and others

This is far too nuanced for some to get there heads around.

 

[Desert Fox]

but what passes for Islamic education in Pakistani madaaris run by the likes of diesel and lal masjid duo and others

So three men is enough to generalize entire Islamic scholarship? You and your boy Hoodbhoy need to substantiate this accusation. If simply making tall claims was enough everyone would be in jail over silly accusations.

 

[doorstar]

This is far too nuanced for some to get their heads around.

nah! only for most PDFians and other who get their "education" from youtube videos, prof. google and "madaaris".

you and a few other brothers in this here thread understood it alright.

 

[Mrc]

Intellectually dishonest person

 

[Hassan_Ishtiaq]

Hoodbhoy has won several awards including the Abdus Salam Prize for Mathematics (1984);[12] the Kalinga Prize for the popularization of science (2003);[13] the Burton Award (2010)[14] from the American Physical Society. In 2011, he was included in the list of 100 most influential global thinkers by Foreign Policy.[15] In 2013, he was made a member of the UN Secretary General's Advisory Board on Disarmament.

Barack Obama won the Nobel "Peace" Prize, despite:

1) Allowing more drone strikes than George Bush

2) Destabilizing Libya and getting the leader of that country murdered

3) Destabilizing Syria

4) Deporting more Latino immigrants than even Trump

5) Creating government organizations to spy on Muslim immigrants


So your retarded prizes and awards don't mean sh!t in the grand scheme of things

more bollocks (in OP)! how long is it going to go on for? Prof. Hoodbhoy is not saying that Islamic education is backward but what passes for Islamic education in Pakistani madaaris run by the likes of diesel and lal masjid duo and others

No, that's not what he's arguing for. Care to read before yapping off please. He's arguing against making Quran studies mandatory for college students in an Islamic country, among other religious curriculum, and that this will keep Pakistan from "progressing". Clearly he has a personal bias here as he himself is an atheist if im correct. Why is it a crime in the eyes of secular Liberals to expect that a Islamic country will make Islamic studies mandatory for its students? How will secular education be the miracle to bring "progress" in Pakistan when there's secular states that are failed despite not only secular education but secular constitutions?

 

[Psychic]

Yes, not legalizing sex with animals is such a 7th century thing to do

Let's all legalize bestiality so we can finally be in the 21st century

View attachment 652511​

Euthanasia is also legal in many of these enlightened 21st century modern progressive blah blah blah states. You just need a prescription from psychiatrist to legally commit suicide with the assistance of a doctor, even if you are physically healthy.
Such a 21st century thing.

Incest is also legal.
Same sex "couples" are allowed to adopt kids. Just imagine the psychological trauma being inflicted on such children who are most likely also victims of abuse at the hands of their gay "parents".

Lack of purpose and lack of morality has increased the use of contraceptives and protection. This has led to a significant decrease in population growth. Population growth in the negative means that they will rely more and more on immigrants even for the provision of basic services in their countries.

Mentally ill cucked males and single mothers is the apogee of this civilization.

These libbus in our countries are daft. They erroneously equate 21st century Western cultural values with progress. These "values" are not the reasons behind the accumulation of material wealth by the West. The same superior West plundered Americas(particularly South America), Africa and other poor regions and committed genocides; their plunder of poor regions and genocides still continue to this day - but, but but they are morally superior and Islam is barbarian.

The West which itself hypocritically imposes restrictions on freedom of speech, critical thinking and freedom of religion is portrayed as the paragon of tolerance by our coconuts.