This is a classic case of 'chopping own feet' in the quest for face saving. The timing of f-16.net cry and this is interesting nonetheless. However, for those who view these matters from a purely critical and technical standpoint. Some facts remain to be analyzed. And the onus is on IAF once again. Many of these facts and technicalities have been mentioned earlier by many members here. But nonetheless, many of our Indian friends need to be educated time and time again. Just for fun for the most part.
AMRAAM is 3.6 meters in length and weighs over 150 kg on launch. The picture released does not even account for 20% by volume, and 10% by weight. The structure of the missile clearly depicts detonation. This means, the missile was in close proximity of the target when the
slugs were released. Those tiny metal pieces are in fact slugs and remains of the missile's outer sheet.
The argument by our dear neighbors is based on the following narrative. And there are massive problems and contradictions with it that does not settle well, even with someone with a mediocre knowledge set when it comes to this subject.
1) AMRAAM missed the target and hit the house
Had the missile 'missed' its target. It would not have detonated. Missiles have protocols to follow, and AMRAAM is a $500,000 missile that is programmed on millions of lines of code. It will not detonate on a 'house' or target an old man, once its own radar finds itself without a target or propellant. The system shuts down and the missile falls down either like a brick or at an angle.
Either way, the missile should be found in a 'solid form' that will be either 'bent' or 'broken'. When I say broken, I refer to Mig 21's missiles that were missing tips and nozzles initially.
2) The missile hits the chaff.
This is the most civilian (read: Hollywood) concept out there. In today's era, chaff and flares are the least effective methods to counter incoming missiles. There is a reason why new systems such as MAWS, laser jamming and electronic attack pods are increasingly gaining popularity.
Having said that, deployment of chaff would only blossom a cloud of aluminum foils that would dissuade the guidance system of AMRAAM, ultimately (in best case scenario, also highly unlikely) making the AMRAAM miss the aircraft and go straight. Even in this case, the key point is that missile does not 'hit' the chaff. Since chaff is merely composed of thousands of small metal pieces that is rapidly falling down. An AMRAAM homing in at Mach 4+ will never catch a rapidly dissipating tiny metal pieces at high altitudes. The missile simply misses the aircraft, runs out of propellant, and goes to situation #1.
Lastly, the effectiveness of chaff has been highly unreliable due to factors such as its echo area (the way metal pieces separate themselves), the material used, fall rate, bloom time, and polarisation. Especially when compared with modern missiles such as AMRAAM. And mind you, C5 is a fire and forget version. Hence, this Chaff theory is laughable.
3) The missile self destructs
It was the Q4 of 2006, when Raytheon actually concluded testing of a capability called 'command destruct/self destruct) technology for AMRAAMs. That particular software update was destined for C7 versions (the most modern of that time).
Pakistan placed an order for 500 C5's around the same time. Hence it is highly unlikely, Pakistani AMRAAM versions will retain the capability that was still under testing around that time. Even if it did, CD/SD capability is controlled by the pilot or WSO. And there is no reason why Hassan Siddique would self destruct the missile himself. And there is no such thing as an auto self destruct.
4)
The lack of sense/contradiction in Indian narrative
i) Indians have consistently failed to produce 4-5 AMRAAMs as they claimed. In fact, they have only produced 0.1 of the AMRAAM, for all the right reasons.
ii) Indians are saying that AMRAAMs have hit the chaff and exploded. Hence the pieces. A lofting AMRAAM detonating in the sky cannot be found in weeks. Let alone, a day.
iii) Indians claim the AMRAAM hit the house and detonated.
Even F-16.net was forced to admit that their source was only Alan Warnes (a journalist with extremely extremely close ties to PAF for many years)
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=57254&sid=4d6b2407eba5ac840c3211f2c80decfc
Even Alan Warnes admitted that his AFM article (Su-30 claim ) was entirely copied from PAF Kaiser Tufail blog.
I would ignore your opening statement. As it's a plain sobbing with zero substance. However, Alan Warnes covers over 60 airforces. He would be kicked out from AFM, a highly reputed magazine, had he claimed anything unreasonable. You're just angry.
So again, where is proof? It can’t be for “classified” reasons because even Americans often release proof of kills, or at the least the wreckage of kills claimed by America often is found. In Pakistan’s case not only have they not released any proof of anything but no wreckage has ever been found. We know the general area where the MKI was operating but no one found the wreckage, pilots or took video or photos.
So the MKI is 72’ in length, can hold up to 20,700lbs fuel, and can have a maximum take off weight of 76,000lbs but no wreckage? How does an aircraft that large just vanish? How would no one notice a fireball and smoke that would probably rise 500-1000+ feet? Is it a cover up? In that case why India did not cover up the MI-17 downing? India let hostile enemy civilians come up to the wreckage and even take photos. Ironically the MI-17 crashed only 250 metres outside an Indian paramilitary base, yet India could not and did not cover up the wreckage.
Unimportant information that has nothing to do with reality. Americans have shown proofs because they invaded those countries and they had satellites on their side. Genius.
HUD does not tell anything except a missile release and its bearings. No wonder you're the spokesperson of Teja.
Highly classified data. We don't make MS paint drawings in AHQ Islamabad, unlike AHQ Delhi.
No satellite images of wreckage
Americans have it. Along with an MKI kill mark on the recent F-16V presentation to Slovakia.
No audio release of Indians acknowledging a downing
Good point. But far from conclusive.
No identity of downed pilots
Killed in car crash in March. Google is your best friend.
These are intricate details that are always not available. PAF wouldnt know. Neither would Americans. Its a large fleet with 250+ jets. What do you expect?
A hanger in the Srinagar base.
No missing or dead fighter pilots
You're repeating the earlier point just for the sake of the length of your post.
No smoke plumes or fireball
The old man from the interview said it all. Listen to him instead of BS Dhanoa.
Does not mean, no loss
Does not mean no loss.
Listen to the old man.
No acknowledgement from India (both officially or unofficially) of losing any MKI.
Acknowledgment from India. A country that claimed a bison downed a viper without firing a missile.
Yes, as the detonation (proximity or contact) would place many thousand feet up in the air causing pieces to spread over many km (basic physics).
To understand basic physics you need to have basic common sense. Contact or proximity did lead to slugs getting insertion in the aircraft
Name one neutral party.
Alan Warnes is the only one and he is not neutral.
He is not neutral because he did not buy Indian BS. Christian Fair also not neutral. Only BS Dhanao is neutral. Lol.
As per PAF only one was fired.
2 AMRAAMs were fired at two aircraft. Rest is history.
there is virtually no middle part of one R-73 as if it detonated. and why after 105 year those third party guys could not find any evidence of that Su-30 . it must be near the place that those villager saw it fall. you knew as they heard the explosion and they saw the pilots parachute , it must have been quite near that village
Please educate yourself on defense matters. You need to revist thousands of pages, watch hundreds of minutes of clips, read thousands of pages of information on history of modern air war. Your post reflects an F grade understanding of what has happened.
I don't know if you are joking or not but there were only two AIM-120 C's fired that day.
P.S: T
here are also rumors that there was only one authentication given. Maybe @Windjammer or
@airomerix can confirm what i mean to say here.
This is classified information.
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