Partition of India-the story

[Jako]

The biggest losers of partition i feel were the bengali refugees......i heard many hindus coming for a better life to india from east pakistan......but they were unwanted here(because life here was already hell,with a fierce race for proper food and livelyhood),with rising population flooding kolkata streets they were the worst sufferers,they felt stranded with unwanted both ways.......kolkatans were hungry then,and the sight of more people to part with limited food,angered them very much.......but with passage of time things stabilized and the refugees then became indians now,many prospering because of helping steps for them by the goi...thnx

 

[ironman]

Well that's remain a bitter truth!

It was only because if this 'fear' that a separate homeland was demanded and millions decided to leave india in favor of Pakistan, though many in similar figures decided to stay, but they (most of them) never remained as lucky after all.

Please elaborate..

 

[Xeric]

Please elaborate..

Do you want the elaboration on the first part or the second?

Anywaz, i'll take on the both.

When i said that it was this 'fear' that the Muslims of india wanted a separate homeland i meant that the issues that have been already discussed on this thread and the issues i'll be posting in future were the reasons that we asked for Pakistan.

Our leaders have been advocating Muslim-Hindu unity since long, Quaid-e-Azam was a staunch believer and supporter of Hindu-Muslim unity and same was the case with Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. But this all went up in fumes when events like Urdu-hindi controversy, Nehru Report, Congress ministries etc etc took place. It was these intimidating actions that forced our leaders to take a different course. It was felt that the Hindus together with the Brits would make the Muslim identity vanish and ultimately there would not be anyone to who could carry the Muslim flag.

Now for the second part. It again relates with the first one. When i say 'they were not that lucky' i am referring to the indian Muslims today. For me they were not at all lucky. i am not arguing about the freedom and liberties that have been provided to them in the secular india but i am concern about the fact that these people have already lost their true identity as Muslim. Though many still are clinging on with the teachings but majority have faded away!

Being a Muslin doesnt mean that you keep a beard and say your prayers. If a Muslim has lost its 'actual' uniqueness and identity due to the influence of external factor (the other religion and customs), i dont consider a Muslim no more. What Muslim is a guy who eats and drinks stuff that is forbidden in Islam, what guud Muslim is a lady who dresses up in a way which is highly contradicting with Muslim values?

Most here would argue that this is what they call 'freedom', but i would argue that if freedom means that you bring out your own definition of Islam and mold it according to you own luxuries it is just plain wrong!

If people like Farah Khan and Shahrukh (though i like him ) have already forgotten their identities and are busy advocating something like 'Deen-e-Ilahi' so they are already reached quite far from the actual Islam. Marrying first like a Muslim and then as a Hindu, making their kids worship both Allah and Bhagwan and doing other stuff that contradicts the either religion is not what a Muslim or hindu is supposed to do. many would consider these acts as 'noble', but unfortunately this have gotten them no where. Dhibi ka ***** the ghar ka na ghaat ka

A Muslim cant marry a Hindu, that's it. So there is no way some one can justify his or her actions after marrying. A woman has to cover herself (whether she wears jeans, t-shirts, sari whatever-provided it fulfils the basic requirement of 'coverage' as Islam asks), and there is no escaping the fact. Showing off the cleavage as it is the societies demand today would not justify her deeds. Yes she may still be a Muslim, but what guud is that, if she can't follow the religion in its essence. Now there are number of reasons to this. Most glaring one could be that it is the environment that she was brought up in. The hindu dominated environ which made her skip the basics of her own religion, so indirectly the circumstances and the environments have taken away her toll and she no more can differentiate the hair line.

This was the REASON that we asked for a separate piece of land where we could not be influenced by other factors and can 'save' our identity and uniqueness!

 

[Nemesis]

This was the REASON that we asked for a separate piece of land where we could not be influenced by other factors and can 'save' our identity and uniqueness!

No offence meant, but if that is indeed the reason then i think Muslims who stayed back in India are better off. It seems to me reading your thread that in the search of Muslim identity, you have forgotten your humanity.

A Muslim cant marry a Hindu, that's it. So there is no way some one can justify his or her actions after marrying. A woman has to cover herself (whether she wears jeans, t-shirts, sari whatever-provided it fulfils the basic requirement of 'coverage' as Islam asks), and there is no escaping the fact. Showing off the cleavage as it is the societies demand today would not justify her deeds. Yes she may still be a Muslim, but what guud is that, if she can't follow the religion in its essence. Now there are number of reasons to this. Most glaring one could be that it is the environment that she was brought up in. The hindu dominated environ which made her skip the basics of her own religion, so indirectly the circumstances and the environments have taken away her toll and she no more can differentiate the hair line.

It has nothing to do with Hinduism but rather being brought up in an environment that respects all faiths.

 

[TopCat]

Now for the second part. It again relates with the first one. When i say 'they were not that lucky' i am referring to the indian Muslims today. For me they were not at all lucky. i am not arguing about the freedom and liberties that have been provided to them in the secular india but i am concern about the fact that these people have already lost their true identity as Muslim. Though many still are clinging on with the teachings but majority have faded away!

Being a Muslin doesnt mean that you keep a beard and say your prayers. If a Muslim has lost its 'actual' uniqueness and identity due to the influence of external factor (the other religion and customs), i dont consider a Muslim no more. What Muslim is a guy who eats and drinks stuff that is forbidden in Islam, what guud Muslim is a lady who dresses up in a way which is highly contradicting with Muslim values?

Most here would argue that this is what they call 'freedom', but i would argue that if freedom means that you bring out your own definition of Islam and mold it according to you own luxuries it is just plain wrong!

If people like Farah Khan and Shahrukh (though i like him ) have already forgotten their identities and are busy advocating something like 'Deen-e-Ilahi' so they are already reached quite far from the actual Islam. Marrying first like a Muslim and then as a Hindu, making their kids worship both Allah and Bhagwan and doing other stuff that contradicts the either religion is not what a Muslim or hindu is supposed to do. many would consider these acts as 'noble', but unfortunately this have gotten them no where. Dhibi ka ***** the ghar ka na ghaat ka

I disagree with this part. Muslim in western free society do follow Islam more than we do at our homeland. Even the newer generation of US muslim follow more religion than their parents who migrated there in 50's and 60's. Islam suppose to flourish in a free society better than in a backward society.

It has nothing to do with Hinduism but rather being brought up in an environment that respects all faiths.

I also disagree on the respect faith thing you mentioned. If it were a free society than Muslim does not need to be pretending somebody else.

 

[Xeric]

I disagree with this part. Muslim in western free society do follow Islam more than we do at our homeland. Even the newer generation of US muslim follow more religion than their parents who migrated there in 50's and 60's. Islam suppose to flourish in a free society better than in a backward society.

Yes you are absolutely right, but you missed the actual theme!

There is a difference between the Western and Eastern 'species'. If a Westerner wears 'wrong' stuff or do 'wrong' acts we the dark skinned would not be affected much by it, but if a species similar to ours (the indians who have similar(to some extent) in customs, traditions, food, clothings, color, language etc etc) would do the 'wrong' stuff there is a likely chance that the influence rate would be manifold. That's natural.

It works like this: if xyz gori actress pops up naked on a website it would have less visitors as compared to an indian or for that matter a Pakistani model doing the same BS, atleast in the Sub-Continental context!

 

[Xeric]

No offence meant, but if that is indeed the reason then i think Muslims who stayed back in India are better off.

Better off!?
How? (though i dont need a reply to this-as it has been amply discusses and counter discussed in other threads and i know how 'better off' the majority of Muslims are in india)

It seems to me reading your thread that in the search of Muslim identity, you have forgotten your humanity.

Humanity!!??
Where did i stepped on you humanity tail??

if you have come here to derail the thread and troll around, you are warmly unwelcomed!!

It has nothing to do with Hinduism but rather being brought up in an environment that respects all faiths.

That's what i said repeatedly in my reply: most would say that inter-marrying (Muslim and Hindus) is a noble thing. But sorry to say it is not!!

We are very clearly told with whom all we can marry or otherwise!

We have very clear lines in our religion and they dont blur!

 

[Nemesis]

How? (though i dont need a reply to this-as it has been amply discusses and counter discussed in other threads and i know how 'better off' the majority of Muslims are in india)

I'm not going to talk of economic or social terms because that will derail the thread. I say better off because although in India, we have our fair share of lunatics, in the end our society does not create a process of "othering" that you seem to be advocating.

Humanity!!??
Where did i stepped on you humanity tail??

what guud Muslim is a lady who dresses up in a way which is highly contradicting with Muslim values?

A Muslim cant marry a Hindu, that's it.

woman has to cover herself (whether she wears jeans, t-shirts, sari whatever-provided it fulfils the basic requirement of 'coverage' as Islam asks), and there is no escaping the fact

This is where you stepped on my "humanity tail". Any society that tells people how they should behave, who they should marry, etc - based on construction of values and culture - goes against Humanist principles. Nay not even humanist, any reasonable, logical, value system. Understand that values and culture are not static, they depend on socio-economic conditions. With time they change.

So for you to say that a Muslim marrying a Hindu is not allowed, or a Muslim woman can't dress a certain way is ludicrous. No religions allows inter-faith marriages until conversions happen, yet people of different faiths do get married. Why? Because value systems framed in middle ages do not apply in the 21st century.

if you have come here to derail the thread and troll around, you are warmly unwelcomed!

Troll around? Hardly. As far as derailing it, i was giving you the Indian point of view (I'm aware that Indians are not homogeneous and different points of view may be put forward). Is that not the purpose of your thread?

That's what i said repeatedly in my reply: most would say that inter-marrying (Muslim and Hindus) is a noble thing. But sorry to say it is not!!

Nothing noble or ignoble about it. Most people refuse to differentiate on the basis of religion. It's that simple.

We are very clearly told with whom all we can marry or otherwise!

Based on texts written in the middle ages.

We have very clear lines in our religion and they dont blur!

Every religion has clear lines. So what?

 

[Xeric]

I'm not going to talk of economic or social terms because that will derail the thread. I say better off because although in India, we have our fair share of lunatics, in the end our society does not create a process of "othering" that you seem to be advocating.

We consider ourselves as 'different', we stand differnt and we got our piece on this very claim, and we are staying different, and no one can do much about it.

If you feel happy in losing your identity go ahead, who stops you, but please dont tell others what to do. They know what they have in their kitties!

This is where you stepped on my "humanity tail".

Thnx for the clarification.

Any society that tells people how they should behave, who they should marry, etc - based on construction of values and culture - goes against Humanist principles. Nay not even humanist, any reasonable, logical, value system. Understand that values and culture are not static, they depend on socio-economic conditions. With time they change.

Oh i know now, so you are the one with the liberal and neo ideas!

Sir! yes we tell people where to marry, what to eat, how to sleep, what to wear, listen, drink, watch etc etc oh i missed this one, we even tell them how to sh!t

And we call it code of life.

Why would the hindus advocate the practice of sati oopss! another step on the tail, ok it has been discontinued but why there are certain do's and don't in your religion and society? Every nations have it their own traditions and way of life, you cant just go on for a liberation-spree and tell others what to do and not to do! If we like to cover ourselves, what does it bothers you?? If we dont eat pork why would it pinch you? Yes if something is forced upon it is JUST WRONG and neither do we advocate it, but the thing is that if someone has a certain practice and wants to continue with it why the excellency the liberals find it hard to digest?

A Muslim wants to marry a non-Muslim, he may, but then he is no more considered as a 'right' Muslims though i or someone else has no right to declare that, its something between him and his God!

So for you to say that a Muslim marrying a Hindu is not allowed

Yes it is NOT allowed!
Any doubts?
What's the fuss about?
No need it written on a stamp paper, next time bring it along!

For you better assimilation, Muslims can only marry people with the book whom we call ihlay kitab (the ones who had the 4 Holy Books with them) that to if the other partner first accepts Islam. There is no mid way in that. It simply cant happen that you should start molding and altering the 'rules', no you cant, that's what the difference is all about. You like to change, we dont!( though i'll be commenting in change shortly)

or a Muslim woman can't dress a certain way is ludicrous.

Exactly the same wording: i'll copy paste it:
Yes it is NOT allowed!
Any doubts?
What's the fuss about?
No need it written on a stamp paper, next time bring it along!

No religions allows inter-faith marriages until conversions happen,

Glad you know it, but alas you still missed the better part!

yet people of different faiths do get married.Why?

Yet Muslims drink alcohol.

Yet the hinuds eat meat.

So are they liable to be killed, wrongs happen, if you ignore them it wouldn't change the fact.

Naming it as 'change' and keeping yourself abreast with modern trends would not get the problem solved.

Because value systems framed in middle ages do not apply in the 21st century.

You are absolutely right!

One has to change!

Islam said that one should do ablution with 1 kg of water, no who on earth can do that now a days? This 'rule' or guideline was given in an age and place where shortage of water was common, if today someone still thinks that he somehow has to manage the ablution in that quantity of water would probably be wrong as there is no need to harness yourself unnecessarily, as there is no such shortage today, moreover the stuff that we get stuck with today (pollution, smoke, cosmetics, hair stuff, stuff while working in factories, handling weapons etc etc ) is not coming off with 1 kg of water, so dude, we have changed, today no one 'forces' us to still make use of 1 kg of water for ablution, though the bottom line is still there: "minimum wastage of water during the process"

No this doesnt at all mean that tomorrow we would include pork in our diets as we have crossed the 21th century!

Do's and donts..remember?

How much the trend changes and modernization occurs, incestuous would remain blasphemous!

So dont advocate blindly!

Troll around? Hardly. As far as derailing it, i was giving you the Indian point of view (I'm aware that Indians are not homogeneous and different points of view may be put forward). Is that not the purpose of your thread?

Thnks for the indian insight, we require it, but let's keep out the religion!

Nothing noble or ignoble about it. Most people refuse to differentiate on the basis of religion. It's that simple.

Sorry sir, not most, but FEW, few people refuse to differentiate on the basis of religion.

This is a separate debate i'll not jump into it.

Just as a soother, we are ready to follow the man made rules, but feel stoned if someone LIKE to follow his religion, how naive, BTW, who has the authority to decide about who is wrong or otherwise, let eveyone do what he wants to, but giving a direction to him for atleast once is something that Humans like to do, otherwise you'll not even find parents bringing up the children tomorrow if we travel at your speed to attain liberalism and 'freedom'

Based on texts written in the middle ages.

Exactly!

Any problems?

Get them solved at your end.

i have already said alot, you prove a single i repeat a single of those teaching wrong, i'll take you as my guru

Every religion has clear lines. So what?

So nothing!!!!!!

Who said that there is a problem, the thing under discussion was regarding 'our' creed getting influenced by yours and vice versa.

That's natural and was and is liable happen, so what? Nothing wrong! no one is asking the indian Muslims to migrate today!

But they are being faded away and the same holds guud when hindus convert to Islam today (no arguments on numbers please), it's also fading on your side!

So..

.....That's why we made a timely 'escape' in '47!!

 

[Zob]

enigma.... great great great POST!!!

 

[sajan]

Sir! yes we tell people where to marry, what to eat, how to sleep, what to wear, listen, drink, watch etc etc oh i missed this one, we even tell them how to sh!t
And we call it code of life.

This is not 'code of life', but its a form of 'Slavery'. God is God, not Master. The relationship between God and us is not a master slave relation. We are not slaves to our God. But God is a loving father and we are children of our loving father. A loving father always forgives our sins and bring us to the right path. A loving father never punish his sons like a master who orders to kill and punish his slaves for their sins.

 

[Zaheerkhan]

Do you want the elaboration on the first part or the second?

Anywaz, i'll take on the both.

When i said that it was this 'fear' that the Muslims of india wanted a separate homeland i meant that the issues that have been already discussed on this thread and the issues i'll be posting in future were the reasons that we asked for Pakistan.

Our leaders have been advocating Muslim-Hindu unity since long, Quaid-e-Azam was a staunch believer and supporter of Hindu-Muslim unity and same was the case with Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. But this all went up in fumes when events like Urdu-hindi controversy, Nehru Report, Congress ministries etc etc took place. It was these intimidating actions that forced our leaders to take a different course. It was felt that the Hindus together with the Brits would make the Muslim identity vanish and ultimately there would not be anyone to who could carry the Muslim flag.

Now for the second part. It again relates with the first one. When i say 'they were not that lucky' i am referring to the indian Muslims today. For me they were not at all lucky. i am not arguing about the freedom and liberties that have been provided to them in the secular india but i am concern about the fact that these people have already lost their true identity as Muslim. Though many still are clinging on with the teachings but majority have faded away!

Being a Muslin doesnt mean that you keep a beard and say your prayers. If a Muslim has lost its 'actual' uniqueness and identity due to the influence of external factor (the other religion and customs), i dont consider a Muslim no more. What Muslim is a guy who eats and drinks stuff that is forbidden in Islam, what guud Muslim is a lady who dresses up in a way which is highly contradicting with Muslim values?

Most here would argue that this is what they call 'freedom', but i would argue that if freedom means that you bring out your own definition of Islam and mold it according to you own luxuries it is just plain wrong!

If people like Farah Khan and Shahrukh (though i like him ) have already forgotten their identities and are busy advocating something like 'Deen-e-Ilahi' so they are already reached quite far from the actual Islam. Marrying first like a Muslim and then as a Hindu, making their kids worship both Allah and Bhagwan and doing other stuff that contradicts the either religion is not what a Muslim or hindu is supposed to do. many would consider these acts as 'noble', but unfortunately this have gotten them no where. Dhibi ka ***** the ghar ka na ghaat ka

A Muslim cant marry a Hindu, that's it. So there is no way some one can justify his or her actions after marrying. A woman has to cover herself (whether she wears jeans, t-shirts, sari whatever-provided it fulfils the basic requirement of 'coverage' as Islam asks), and there is no escaping the fact. Showing off the cleavage as it is the societies demand today would not justify her deeds. Yes she may still be a Muslim, but what guud is that, if she can't follow the religion in its essence. Now there are number of reasons to this. Most glaring one could be that it is the environment that she was brought up in. The hindu dominated environ which made her skip the basics of her own religion, so indirectly the circumstances and the environments have taken away her toll and she no more can differentiate the hair line.

This was the REASON that we asked for a separate piece of land where we could not be influenced by other factors and can 'save' our identity and uniqueness!

Absolute Bullshit!!!

U r talking about a seperate nation so that you can ward off all the distractions???... What about your Pakistani actresses??? are'nt they doing the same thing.how is"Pakistan" stopping them???

How is "Pakistan" stopping that crossdresser host of a popular television show!!

sorry to say, but your "reasons" are actually"excuses".. I firmly believe is what I say and will stand by it,...and what I feel is that Pakistanis are really confused with their true identities!!..

 

[EjazR]

Shah Rukh Khan advocating Deen-i-ilahi? thats news to me.
He talks about fasting and praying on Shab-e-qadr.

Sure he might not be a perfect Muslim, but how many muslims are perfect? Maybe Inshallah he will come back to the right path.

How about the titillating punjabi stage shows that are so famous, having an Islamic state has'nt prevented from these shows being produced on a massive scale.

I think it is important to understand that Deen can come in our lives from a bottom up approach / grassroots level only. Not through a top-down Islamic state level /laws path. Something to think about.

 

[Xeric]

This is not 'code of life', but its a form of 'Slavery'. God is God, not Master. The relationship between God and us is not a master slave relation. We are not slaves to our God. But God is a loving father and we are children of our loving father. A loving father always forgives our sins and bring us to the right path. A loving father never punish his sons like a master who orders to kill and punish his slaves for their sins.

i'll answer you when you'll correct your head and enlighten yourself that we dont consider our God as our father.period!

 

[Xeric]

Absolute Bullshit!!!

U r talking about a seperate nation so that you can ward off all the distractions???... What about your Pakistani actresses??? are'nt they doing the same thing.how is"Pakistan" stopping them???

How is "Pakistan" stopping that crossdresser host of a popular television show!!

sorry to say, but your "reasons" are actually"excuses".. I firmly believe is what I say and will stand by it,...and what I feel is that Pakistanis are really confused with their true identities!!..

Oh an indian Muslim....hmmm...you impressed with Shahrukh and Farah..???!