Parting Shot : Defence Minister Says,' MoD only Ministry Which Was Above Politics, Leaving Behind Ar

[MilSpec]

We mallus know him very well...But i have spoken to few from military and he has lot of support in army, be it a jawan or an officer...... He has done lot of things in welfare of the army ( i mean all the 3 services).... He was the least corrupt DM probably..... and with the kind of scams which his government faced, he managed to keep defense away from it (other than aghosta scam)....

But was he an efficient Defence Minister????? I would agree with you and my answer is a big fat "NO"

I have never raised any questions on his honesty....

My expectation from a DM is not to have engineering or technical acumen... What I do expect for the DM is to set up processes,... make system dependent on efficient processes and less on people/individuals.

We need the Defense minister to function like a CEO of MoD, with a good team of associates, I don't think Anthony took any steps in that direction. I would hope for Modi to put in place a good team led by a good minister incharge of defense, (which could very well be him, as his gujrat model was based of team led by him making quick and well informed decisions)

 

[sancho]

but the FMS simply allowed for the deals to go through without anyone able to question them as the FMS process is inherently above board on all fronts as it is a govt-govt

Which is wrong, because if it's done as part of a competition, still any loosing vendor can complain about anything, that has nothing to do with the FMS route or not. As said, you are confusing the ease of a single vendor procurement with the FMS route, which are 2 seperate things.

sure I'll concede he has done some good on the anti-corruption front (whether this is motivated by his desire to keep himself clean or out of a genuine interest to clean up the MoD is irrelevant) however there is simply no doubt he has stalled certain deals purely because he wants to keep his own image untarnished.

Based on what? I don't deny that he stalled deals, like relating the VIP deal to the LUH deal and I am constantly criticizing that as you know, but where exactly was his own benefit? People too often say he does that to remain clean for his image, but if that would be the case, why didn't he pushed that far more for personal PR? Take the MMRCA as an example, he always stated that it won't have any political influence and that all measures will be taken by MoD and IAF to keep the procurement clean. He never put himself to the front and stated he will keep it clean, not even after the deal when it was generally acknowledged, that the competition was done in a very transperent and fair manner.
Or what about the case of the IAF officer that asked Dassault for bribes? Did you hear him talking big in front of the media how he made sure that the officer will be punished or that he boasted that his system worked (which he actually could have done then)?

He had a high focus on a clean ministry and clean procedures, yes, but the perception that he did that for his image can't actually be proven!

There is no investigation running nor is there and plans to scrap the deal, it is just sitting there stagnating- he didn't have the b@lls to make a decision either way.

Which again is your personal conclusion only, but based on no real point! The LUH deal is only big in number, but not in terms of money, why would you think it would be a big deal to take a decision about it? We know that decisions were delayed, but not for what reason and from whom, we don't know if the development progress of HALs LUH could be a reason, which even many of use prefered to over splitting the deal.
But again, as long as you don't know what the issue is, you can't simply conclude that it's his doing only because you don't like the delays.

Similarly he could have stood up to the Finance Ministry and made the case for the A330 MRTT back in 2011 but instead he sat back and allowed it to be scrapped only for 3 years later for the A330 MRTT to be found the best machine.

Which is nonsens mate, he is the defence minister, not a forumer like us! He have to follow rules and he can't simply ignore the ministry that sets the budgets. Nor can he openly show any preference for a product, since that's not up to him to decide, but this is a typical situation again, where people complain about him, when it was simply stupid by IAF to make the competition without including life-cycle costs! We wasted years because just another mistake in the RFP of a competition, but still you only complain about Antony, for no reason at all and ignore the once that actually made the mistake!

Antony, in an attempt to save his image

Again an accusation that you can't base on anything! The fact is, he and the MoD had infos from the Italian governments too, but as long as their investigations are going on, they surely can't be made public by us. On the other side, Indian opposition ministers could had got infos about the insights, which but I haven't saw them complaining about the cancellation, rather than claiming that there is a relation to the Gandhis.

based on nothing more then circumstantial evidence and has initiated steps to blacklist Finmeccanica a sa whole jeopardising countless Indian defence deals

Nothing that you know about, but that doesn't mean it's done just like that and not he is jeopardising defence deals by following the rules (which as simple as it is, takes investigations about relations in other deals or blacklisting as the next step), but the once that proposed and the once that took bribes!
It's nothing but logical that you have to put a procurement on hold when you have evidence for corruption, it's also logical that you have to punish the company in any form, which is the black listing. One can discuss about if subsidiaries should be blacklisted too, but that's a matter of the rules and regulations of India and not just the wishes of the DM or the MoD that counts. And it's not like this was the first or a special case of black listing, we had this before with Bofors, HDW, Rheinmetall, Denel..., so the laws where followed for all in the same manner.

 

[sancho]

To start with AK Anthony was never qualified to be DM

Which shows the sad thing about him, that everyone judges him not based on realities but on personal feelings. As I told you once, he is definitely not my favourite minister personally, but I simply don't understand why so many Indians are so shallow when it comes to politicians. They are always the bad guys no matter what, even the once that actually are doing their job.
Look at MMS, UPA 1, or all the things that are actually good in the defence field today, they are forgotten way too fast and those that actually cause the problems (DRDO, HAL, many officiers, the project managers and scientists...) will be treated generously by closing the eyes. But that's too simple and won't change any of the problems!

It doesn't matter if he was qualified, as if all over the world only ex military personell will be defence ministers! If he actually made mistakes, criticize that and not just that you might not like him, based on such baseless points!

As for the highlighted part, please post more specifics to understand his key role, initiative, directives w.r.t indigenous developments, JVs, co-developments, licence productions, offsets and ToT.

Take nearly all procurments today, which are held in competition forms, which gains reduced unit costs thanks to forcing the vendor to competitive pricing. Look at the shakti engine for HALs LUH, which HAL prefered but the price Snecma asked for a direct deal was simply too high. MoD fielded a competition and at the end, it still came out as the winner, but as the L1 and most like closer to the technical terms that we wanted.
Take FGFA, Brahmos, or similar co-developments, where we even get critical techs and IP rights today, while we were happy when we got basic production ToT in the past, which didn't gave us a lot in return. Take the simple fact that we went from taking optional Mirage 2000s, with the costs and tech benefits that the vendor is ready to give us, to a level where we decide the requirements, the tech and offset level that must be provided and the world is ready to provide..., all things that shows how much we gain thanks to decisions and policies MoD has focused on in the recent years, but these steps are constantly forgotten as well.

 

[Span]

, all things that shows how much we gain thanks to decisions and policies MoD has focused on in the recent years, but these steps are constantly forgotten as well.

Only if the negotiations could be managed at a faster rate, so as not to affect, at all, the operational relevance of the equipment concerned.

 

[sancho]

He was the least corrupt DM probably...

The problem is, that it's exactly this that people now hold against him. That he tried to not be corrupt and keep the system clean. It is like people had prefered it if he would had been corrupt, if he had prefered vendors..., that he should had closed his eyes about the corruption in the forces, only to say we have inducted a howitzer, a helicopter..., no matter how we selected it and when the general perception is like that, it is something that is bothering.
Did you noticed how often forumers claimed that Antony or MoD wouldn't support indigenous developments with enough funds? Another general perception, but even DRDO officials recently stated, that a lack of funding by the MoD has never delayed any project!

But was he an efficient Defence Minister????? I would agree with you and my answer is a big fat "NO"

What would you take as efficient or ideal? Indian defence is in a much better state than before, the procurement policies are much cleaner than in the decade before too, the ammount of indigenous content is constantly increasing...all things the MoD is actually responsible for.
But what the public often sees is, the delay of LCA, trainer developments, the failure of Kaveri, or even recent accidents in the IN, which automatically will be related to MoD only. There is no doubt that Antony or the current MoD had problems on their own and surely had mistakes as well, but that always will happen all over the world (German MoD - Eurohawk disaster, Tiger helicopter without chinmounted gun, overprized EF, or Puma, US MoD with Comance, V22, F35 and even F22 problems...).

Only if the negotiations could be managed at a faster rate, so as not to affect, at all, the operational relevance of the equipment concerned.

Would be great and I would fully support it, but not all negotiations that we think MoD does, are actually with MoD as the MMRCA clearly shows. Everybody is hoping for a decision from MoD, while it's Dassault / Reliance that delayed things.
I showed the points about the Avro replacement earlier too, where MoD is criticized, while it's our privat industry (that everybody sees as the only solution for the future) is the problem.
All the mistakes in the RFPs of the forces...

There are many problems in the system and in India, but it's not always MoD that is the problem!

 

[MilSpec]

Which shows the sad thing about him, that everyone judges him not based on realities but on personal feelings. As I told you once, he is definitely not my favourite minister personally, but I simply don't understand why so many Indians are so shallow when it comes to politicians. They are always the bad guys no matter what, even the once that actually are doing their job.

Hold your horses, read again What I wrote, i do not expect technical competence from any ministers, but I do expect managerial expediance, Proper resource allocations, Value stream mapping and proper project management skills. In all of the above, Mr. A.K Anthony had not shown any expertise prior to be chosen as the DM.
If I am incorrect please do highlight the projects he has undertaken where he had to deal with international bids, resource allocations, or otherwise. MoD has over the years returned it's allocated defence budget, which clearly shows either AOP's were wrong or under-utilization of the budget....

Look at MMS, UPA 1, or all the things that are actually good in the defence field today, they are forgotten way too fast and those that actually cause the problems (DRDO, HAL, many officiers, the project managers and scientists...) will be treated generously by closing the eyes. But that's too simple and won't change any of the problems!

In other words Every CEO is absolved of any discrepency in performance... i dont think so....
If you have incompetent scientists, engineers and managers, FIRE them and hire new one.... But if you are thoroughly incompetent then do have the courage to resign....(or people will decimate your government)

It doesn't matter if he was qualified, as if all over the world only ex military personell will be defence ministers! If he actually made mistakes, criticize that and not just that you might not like him, based on such baseless points!

Please highlight the base-less points I have made. I will respectfully concede.

Take nearly all procurments today, which are held in competition forms, which gains reduced unit costs thanks to forcing the vendor to competitive pricing. Look at the shakti engine for HALs LUH, which HAL prefered but the price Snecma asked for a direct deal was simply too high. MoD fielded a competition and at the end, it still came out as the winner, but as the L1 and most like closer to the technical terms that we wanted.

Yes why dont we do the same for PMF FGFA, evaluate for 10 more years, i am sure we can knock down the price that too.... What is the expedience? this is the same government where the military has publicily humiliate the snoozing government that they are almost out of ammunition!!!

Lets not even bring up Tatra, Augusta, recovery vehicles, INS Vikramaditya delays, Su 30MKI delays, LCA delays, LCA mk2 Delays, LCH delays.... Isn't MoD responsible for D-PSU's anymore... or are they on their own now.... Your rhetoric refers to everything positive is shri Anthony, everything negative is everyone else.

Take FGFA, Brahmos, or similar co-developments, where we even get critical techs and IP rights today, while we were happy when we got basic production ToT in the past, which didn't gave us a lot in return. Take the simple fact that we went from taking optional Mirage 2000s, with the costs and tech benefits that the vendor is ready to give us, to a level where we decide the requirements, the tech and offset level that must be provided and the world is ready to provide..., all things that shows how much we gain thanks to decisions and policies MoD has focused on in the recent years, but these steps are constantly forgotten as well.

Yes IAF/HAL negotiates the terms of ToT for most projects,, and the deserving accolades should go to the minister, on the flip side if there are any shortfalls in the forces or the D-PSU's- Minister is absolved, Engineers and managers are responsible... Good going Boss!

 

[Span]

There are many problems in the system and in India, but it's not always MoD that is the problem!

Of course not, we only speculate on the basis of info that is in public domain somehow or the other. We generally do not have access to first hand information, based on which the decisions are taken. One cannot doubt their professionalism, for they are qualified for the job they're performing.

But like any other ministry, MoD ain't completely clean in it's operations. Got access to a couple of detailed reports of Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defense, and trust me, quite a few blunders, beyond any doubt, that have been committed cannot be labelled anything else but corruption and/or inefficiency. (Obviously won't go in detail)

Though it is not like every failure is down to inefficiency. Some of them may even be termed as overqualified so as to do the job, while addressing their personal gains. And while acting on the latter, if they're caught out, boom, we have a scandal shaking the nation down.

I wonder if, apart from creating employment opportunities, bureaucracy has done this nation any good in absolute terms.

 

[sancho]

Hold your horses, read again What I wrote, i do not expect technical competence from any ministers, but I do expect managerial expediance

Which doesn't fit to your point earlier, that "first of all he is not qualified to be a DM". There is actually no qualification for any minster, since everyone has certain areas where has personal competence or not, but a minister has to take any ministry if necessary, which means even without the basic competence in that field (be it technical or experience based) he need to be flexible enough to deal with the things.

In 2005 she was appointed Federal Minister for Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth in the cabinet of Angela Merkel.
Von der Leyen was elected to the Bundestag, the Parliament of Germany, in the 2009 federal election. She succeeded Franz Josef Jung as Federal Minister of Labour and Social Affairs on 30 November 2009.[13] During that time, she cultivated an image as "the social conscience of her party"[14] and helped Merkel move the CDU into the political center.[15] By speaking out in favour of increasing the number of nurseries and the introduction of a women's quota for listed companies' supervisory boards, gay marriage and a nationwide minimum wage, Von der Leyen made enemies among the more traditionalist party members and won admirers on the left.[16]...

...In 2013, Ursula von der Leyen was appointed as Germany's first female defense minister

Ursula von der Leyen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The perfect example of a minister with no competence or experience in defence whatsoever and still so far she is handling the issues quiet well.
That's why I said, don't judge Antony based on things that you personally might expect, but that are not requirements to be a minister. Judge him for the mistakes he actually did and give him credit for the good things he did as well.

Proper resource allocations, Value stream mapping and proper project management skills.

So it's once again MoD and the lack of funds, but not the project managers that DRDO or HAL chose / hire that caused the problems? You know it better than I do, so who is responsible for hireing project managers in HAL, lets say for the trainer projects? Will they be hand picked by MoD or by HAL?

Yes why dont we do the same for PMF FGFA, evaluate for 10 more years, i am sure we can knock down the price that too...

If we could, we might get more of the things done that we require, but we can't since there are no alternatives to the Russian engine, nor to the AESA radar, let alone the airframe.

What is the expedience? this is the same government where the military has publicily humiliate the snoozing government that they are almost out of ammunition!!!

You mean by that general that was not able to do his own homework and that even his own former force today don't like and support anymore. Or by the force that constantly complains about not having howitzers, but that constantly is also the issue for corruption cases in new procurements of howitzers for decades now and under different governments and DM's?
As I said, the problems are far deeper than we often see them and we just take the simple route of blaming the most visible person and not the real cause of the problem!

Lets not even bring up Tatra, Augusta, recovery vehicles, INS Vikramaditya delays, Su 30MKI delays, LCA delays, LCA mk2 Delays, LCH delays.... Isn't MoD responsible for D-PSU's anymore... or are they on their own now.... Your rhetoric refers to everything positive is shri Anthony, everything negative is everyone else.

Just as I said before, you can't blame the DM if ADA is designing an aircraft too draggy, or if HAL delays all trainer developments, or if Augusta bribes officials..., BUT his responsibility is the reaction to these issues!
Augusta blacklisted and charged with fines, procurement stopped
Vikramaditya delayed, more pressure on Russians, witholding of funds
MKI and HAWK delays because of late delivery of ToT, charged with fines and pressured to provide the necessary things, with the result that HAL got the production done later and is even ahead of time frames for the HAWKs
LCA delayed, more pressure on DRDO
Trainers delayed, more pressure on HAL
IAF insisting on old policies to remain with combat helicopters, more pressure on IAF to re-think
...
...
...
That is what MoD or a DM is responsible for and what he should do (what Antony did), but not to do the job of a scientist, or a project manager of one of the government owned labs!
I totally agree that he should had be far stronger against these DRDO and HAL scientists and managers and should had made them accountable for their failures too. Sadly there is a habbit of protecting them when it comes to indigenous government owned companies and developments. Then we here the usual excuses again, it was the first time, lack of funds... ... ..., but that's also what I really hope from the next BJP DM, to kick DRDOs and HALs asses!

Yes IAF/HAL negotiates the terms of ToT for most projects,, and the deserving accolades should go to the minister, on the flip side if there are any shortfalls in the forces or the D-PSU's- Minister is absolved, Engineers and managers are responsible... Good going Boss!

Wrong, he should pave the way more technical and industrial improvement in India, which is what the JV's partnerships or offsets brings and IF there are shorfalls in the forces because of his wrong doing he is responsible too, but not for the shortfalls of developing Engeers and managers, that's where their accountability should step in, but it might take a long time till we see such an accountability at the lower levels too.

 

[sancho]

One cannot doubt their professionalism, for they are qualified for the job they're performing.

Actually that is what we see. Where are the critics of the professionalism or even the patriotism of DRDO and Co when they take on new development only for their own interests? are the critics of the professionalism or even the patriotism of the private industry, when they don't want to produce the Avro replacement, because they want more financial benefits? What about the soldiers that causes all the corruption issues, they will be covered in most cases too.
But somehow Antony was always criticised for being too clean, which then was concluded to not be professional, since it delayed the procurements. But that was only the result and not the cause of the delay!

But like any other ministry, MoD ain't completely clean in it's operations. Got access to a couple of detailed reports of Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defense, and trust me, quite a few blunders, beyond any doubt, that have been committed cannot be labelled anything else but corruption and/or inefficiency. (Obviously won't go in detail)

No doubt about that, I know that they are not perfect either and I am criticizing them often too, but I am against this general perception that it's either black or white and that there is nothing inbetween. If something good like IOC 2 happens, we jump around and hail DRDO, HAL and our scientiest, but not Antony who actually put some real pressure on DRDO to speed up the IOC, with success. But when things go wrong, we forget about the others and focus only on him, since it's easier to have one visible person that can be blamed, than to blame a scientist or manager, that we don't know about. Btw, that won't change with the new DM either, as long as our perception about accountability doesn't change. IF LCA gets further delayed, he will be blamed too and not the once that actually cause the delays.

 

[MilSpec]

Which doesn't fit to your point earlier, that "first of all he is not qualified to be a DM". There is actually no qualification for any minster, since everyone has certain areas where has personal competence or not, but a minister has to take any ministry if necessary, which means even without the basic competence in that field (be it technical or experience based) he need to be flexible enough to deal with the things.

By the same logic, you can place any cabinet minister in any ministry..... Tell Me One attribute of AK anthony for which he was selected as DM apart from being Gandhi family's lackey. If he was so competent, I am sure you would approve of him as the finance minister too, as you said there is no specialized skill set needed for any ministry...

So it's once again MoD and the lack of funds, but not the project managers that DRDO or HAL chose / hire that caused the problems? You know it better than I do, so who is responsible for hireing project managers in HAL, lets say for the trainer projects? Will they be hand picked by MoD or by HAL?

Don't behave like a child now, organizational structure of HAL and DRDO are completely different. HAL has been starved for funds and DRDO hasn't. If you cannot deal with this simple reality, then there is no room for discourse.

If we could, we might get more of the things done that we require, but we can't since there are no alternatives to the Russian engine, nor to the AESA radar, let alone the airframe.

You mean by that general that was not able to do his own homework and that even his own former force today don't like and support anymore. Or by the force that constantly complains about not having howitzers, but that constantly is also the issue for corruption cases in new procurements of howitzers for decades now and under different governments and DM's?
As I said, the problems are far deeper than we often see them and we just take the simple route of blaming the most visible person and not the real cause of the problem!

Mindwell you are criticizing Army Chief, who on his worst day would be 100 times more competent than all ministers stacked together. Here you are precisely doing the same, you are consistently oversimplifying the situation. Armed forces requests have piled up in the south block, where MoD has just sat on them, even resulting the Sub force resorting to cannibilization of stock.

Just as I said before, you can't blame the DM if ADA is designing an aircraft too draggy, or if HAL delays all trainer developments, or if Augusta bribes officials..., BUT his responsibility is the reaction to these issues!
Augusta blacklisted and charged with fines, procurement stopped
Vikramaditya delayed, more pressure on Russians, witholding of funds
MKI and HAWK delays because of late delivery of ToT, charged with fines and pressured to provide the necessary things, with the result that HAL got the production done later and is even ahead of time frames for the HAWKs
LCA delayed, more pressure on DRDO
Trainers delayed, more pressure on HAL
IAF insisting on old policies to remain with combat helicopters, more pressure on IAF to re-think
...
...
...
That is what MoD or a DM is responsible for and what he should do (what Antony did), but not to do the job of a scientist, or a project manager of one of the government owned labs!
I totally agree that he should had be far stronger against these DRDO and HAL scientists and managers and should had made them accountable for their failures too. Sadly there is a habbit of protecting them when it comes to indigenous government owned companies and developments. Then we here the usual excuses again, it was the first time, lack of funds... ... ..., but that's also what I really hope from the next BJP DM, to kick DRDOs and HALs asses!

Absolutely I can Blame MOD, for starving a technological Giant like HAL for research funding and snubbing it by make ADA... It was defence ministry under previous congress government that did so... and AK anthony continued the culture by doing the same with AMCA.... LCA design which HAL had nothing to do with now has to be responsible for MOD and ADA sheer incompetence. If you want to kick asses, give the mentioned organization autonomy, so that organization doesn't have to patch up ADA and MoD's incompetence.

Wrong, he should pave the way more technical and industrial improvement in India, which is what the JV's partnerships or offsets brings and IF there are shorfalls in the forces because of his wrong doing he is responsible too, but not for the shortfalls of developing Engeers and managers, that's where their accountability should step in, but it might take a long time till we see such an accountability at the lower levels too.

please study organizational structure more and find out how Board of directors can control technological output in an organization.

 

[axisofevil]

Not really, he left it in a mess. I am talking about the overall navy anyway, not just the Subs.

Dude the navy was fuked up to begin with. We had an advantage in terms of quantity not quality. His term worked a drastic improvement but no thanks to him. The Navy was simply on top of its game. If anything, his problem was not making timely decisions but unless we see all the facts, its hard to judge.

 

[Span]

By the same logic, you can place any cabinet minister in any ministry.....

With the only exception being Finance Ministry, this is true. And has been the case for decades in India.

Mindwell you are criticizing Army Chief, who on his worst day would be 100 times more competent than all ministers stacked together.

The same Army Chief, though may have done a great deal to the nation which most of us will simply not be able to equalize in our entire lifetime, has exhibited rebellious traits, filing a legal suit to get an extension, cause he himself had messed up his legal formalities? Not worthy of a Army Chief.

Armed forces requests have piled up in the south block, where MoD has just sat on them, even resulting the Sub force resorting to cannibilization of stock.

Very true. MoD is indeed to be blamed, if this is not down to budgetary constraints, which may well be the case cause lately, the MoD has been putting it's fingers in too many pies. I don't know.

This is one major drawback of having a defence minister from non-military background. Generally, they don't happen to realize the gravity of the requests of armed forces until the disaster strikes. But then, there's a reason why military is structured to carry on it's operations under civilian leadership.

Actually that is what we see. Where are the critics of the professionalism or even the patriotism of DRDO and Co when they take on new development only for their own interests?

Mate, do not worry about DRDO and Co. They do get a good bashing every time they are to give a briefing session to the Standing Committee on it's performance. (You'd be surprised to know what kind of criticism and bashing they are subjected to if you get to read the transcripts of the meetings)

 

[sancho]

By the same logic, you can place any cabinet minister in any ministry.....

You can, if you have to. That's the point, you elect people to government not because they have a certain competence in a specific field. In many cases they are lawyers isn't it? So does it mean such a person could never be DM?

Tell Me One attribute of AK anthony for which he was selected as DM apart from being Gandhi family's lackey.

I don't know and frankly I don't care why he was selected by whom (which btw shows your bias again), my point is only, that the defence situation of our forces is by far not as bad as people want to make it, that our industry benefitted a lot in the recent years, because of policies that MoD and Antony created and that his focus on less corruption definitely was not a bad way, like many people see it now.
So no matter what, he did made good things even if he might not had a specific competence that you maybe want to see and that what matters!

Don't behave like a child now, organizational structure of HAL and DRDO are completely different.

I'm not acting like a child at all, I asked you a genuine question, since you complained about skills of the scientists and project managers. But if that doesn't fall into MoDs tasks, but to DRDOs/HALs you simply are complaining about the wrong person here and should ask the current or the former HAL CEO what competence criteria were important for those managers that caused these problems?

HAL has been starved for funds and DRDO hasn't. If you cannot deal with this simple reality, then there is no room for discourse.

That maybe explains your frustration wrt to MoD prefering DRDO/ADA, but doesn't mean MoD / Antony did everything wrong and is simply not enough for generalizations.

Mindwell you are criticizing Army Chief, who on his worst day would be 100 times more competent than all ministers stacked together.

Maybe but still, if he did HIS job right, IA would had been in a better situation by the time he left, but since he couldn't provide his own forces with ammo, howitzers or other important long pending stuff, all his competence was not worth anything!
It's better to have a man without competence that gets the job done, that to have someone that claims he has knowledge but can't do anything with it. And he clearly is showing more attitude of a politician than Antony did, which should tell you something by the fact that I didn't even liked Antony's attitudes.

Here you are precisely doing the same, you are consistently oversimplifying the situation. Armed forces requests have piled up in the south block, where MoD has just sat on them, even resulting the Sub force resorting to cannibilization of stock.

Am I? Who set up the request, is responsible for propper RFI and RFP to evaluate suitable weapons or techs, IA or MoD? Why does IA evaluate different ATGMs than IAF does for the same helicopters? Why does IA evaluate different QR SAMs than IAF for the same regions?
All these are typical problems in the procurements, often also delayed through corruption issues (IA is clearly the worst in this field) and not MoDs responsibility. What I however often have criticized is, that MoD let the forces so much free hand to choose their own toys in own evaluations, instead of combining things and speeding up the procurement. The whole Trishul / Maitri SAM issue for example could had been avoided, by getting a licence production for the Spyder SAM (or a winner in a joint competition) in IA and IAF.

Mate, do not worry about DRDO and Co. They do get a good bashing every time they are to give a briefing session to the Standing Committee on it's performance. (You'd be surprised to know what kind of criticism and bashing they are subjected to if you get to read the transcripts of the meetings)

You obviously have a better inside about that than I have, but still, seeing DRDO being able to veto vital procurements like an AIP for our subs worries me a lot! I am all for indigenous developments (althogh many people wouldn't believe it), but not for hampering Indias defence capability because of pride or PR reasons and that's what I simply see too often from DRDO and in the recent years from HAL too.

 

[Span]

Maybe but still, if he did HIS job right, IA would had been in a better situation by the time he left, but since he couldn't provide his own forces with ammo, howitzers or other important long pending stuff, all his competence was not worth anything!

Erm, there...

You didn't like IA chief's inability to transform the force and provide the required resources, cause he won't let corrupt deals to materialize during his tenure and thus, may even seriously jeopardize the nation's security if we are to go at war tomorrow.

But on the other hand, you are, sort of, absolving Antony of the failures during his tenure and that it cannot be blamed on him, partly cause he's been unable to contain the corruption in his department (however honest he himself may be), in the way, being unable to provide the necessary equipment to the armed forces viz. blacklisting the firms indulging in corrupt practices. (Which is in accordance with the rules established, so fair play)

But what's the difference between the two?

 

[sancho]

You didn't like IA chief's inability to transform the force and provide the required resources, cause he won't let corrupt deals to materialize during his tenure and thus, may even seriously jeopardize the nation's security if we are to go at war tomorrow.

No, that's was the right thing to do, although he should have followed the official procedure and not just go out to the media.
My problem is, that he made a personal PR show out of it, which then lets to his political career and now (as some BJP supporters stated) might even get him to be DM. But at the same time, did he put the same effort in reducing the corruption problem within the force? If yes, shouldn't he at least had been able to solve parts of the shortfalls?

But on the other hand, you are, sort of, absolving Antony of the failures during his tenure

Not at all, Antony must be held for his failures for sure too, but that is not what we see here in this thread, or in the media today. It's mainly a generalization, everything is bad in defence => everything he did was bad and that's what I am against.

partly cause he's been unable to contain the corruption in his department

Hasn't he? Can anybody tell me the last curruption case in the defence that actually included a politician or one official under Antony? All the cases in the last few years that I remember involved either officers of the forces, or of vendors that tried to bribe.

in the way, being unable to provide the necessary equipment to the armed forces viz. blacklisting the firms indulging in corrupt practices. (Which is in accordance with the rules established, so fair play)

That's the problem, he is doing his job and according to the rules, so one can't blame him to do the right thing, even if the result is blacklisting and therefor delays of procurements. The blame has to go to those who actually caused the blacklisting, be it officiers, vendors and of course MoD officials too. But that requires a more balanced view for us, taken all people accountable for their wrong doings and that in a much stronger way.