Pallywood: Debunking Palestinean Lies

[p(-)0ENiX]

I'm an ethnic Kashmir born to a Punjabi mother. Me and My People - the Punjabi-Kashmiris, are fiercely proud of the Punjabi language and the Punjabi Culture, and we own it as our own ! Thats more than enough of a localized identity for me...I dunno whether I'd want to engage in this Aryan thing ! The last time someone did...6 million Jews were slaughtered ! And this goes without saying about the veracity of such a claim to begin with !

Lol, bro the word Aryan comes from the Sanskrit word Arya. It means to be noble or honorable. Many people get confused with Aryan & Nazi, Aryans are not Nazis, & Nazis don't represent the Aryans.

I would never desire slaughtering any ethnicity like the Nazis did. Kashmiris & Punjabis are both Aryan groups as well.

Vedic Aryans

Vedic period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Getting back to topic:

Propaganda: The Battle Between Israel and Palestine

Here is a small quote from the article:

Following the events of World War I the League of Nations approved the 'British Mandate for Palestine' which was compromised of regions including modern day Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, as well as Jordan. With the intention of creating "a national home for the Jewish people" after the atrocities of the holocaust the United Nations approved the partition of the Mandate of Palestine to create two separate states, one Arab and one Jewish.[1] The Arabs rejected the thought of a Jewish state and on May 14, 1948 Israel declared its independence and a series of wars, conflicts, and futile resolutions have resulted since.[2] These conflicts have been supplemented with aggressive propaganda campaigns by both parties to demonize, discredit, and disgrace anything and everything each side has to stand for.

Israel and Palestine, while both using propaganda to gain public approval of their individual acts, do approach this powerful tool of manipulation in a very diverse manner. Israel, being one of the few parliamentary democracies in the Middle Eastern region[3] has to be careful how it presents its propaganda to its citizens and the world in general. In contrast Palestinian and Middle Eastern propaganda against Israel and the Zionist movement is a lot more aggressive, targeting vulnerable groups such as children and the uneducated which often leads to fundamental Islamist movements resulting in terrorism and violence.

 

[Armstrong]

Pan-Islamism did occur a few times in history..and guess what..at an enormous expense of spilling Muslim blood by the hand of Muslim..and it did not last long..because pan-islamism only shove the Muslims backward at behest of few imperial tycoon..

biggest proof..all the pan-islamism could not save the ottomans when the same Arabs who learned civilization from the Turks stabbed them in the back in co-operation with the British. So the biggest proponents of Muslim brotherhood conspired against Muslims by collaboration with the infidels..how legitimate!

Sorry I didn't see these two paragraphs ! Pan-Islamism, to the best of my knowledge, characterizes the very best of Islam that instead of finding unity in such man-made, finite things like ethnicity or linguistics....find it in a common collective consciousness ! I.e Muslims, by and large, have more similarities with each other on everything from life till death, on the purpose of existence etc, then they can have, on average, with any other community in the world !

The biggest, best proof of what Pan-Islamism could achieve is the formation of Pakistan where millions of Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, despite speaking dozens of different languages and belonging to different ethnic groups, got together under the banner of 'Muslim Nationalism' whereby they wanted to create a state where the Islamic ideology would not only be protected but nurtured and brought in line with modernity ! Unfortunately...we've failed massively in that regard ! But the reason was not the impossibility of such a concept but our ill-will towards our fellow men ! If the West can come together and form one block under the pretext of having a common belief system 'Liberalism, Democracy..the sort'...then we have an exponentially more potential to do the same ! I'm not talking about dissolving our borders but the OIC (as pathetic as it maybe) has a greater potential to pull off what the EU couldn't and what the NATO is doing right now ! However, I stand by what I said earlier, this 'Pan-Islamism' is better left to a much more mature, cultured and intellectual generation of Muslim Nations...not 'Us' ! In fact, something to the effect has been echoed by Iqbal too in his 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam' - that let the Muslims form Nations of their own whether on the basis of ethnicity, linguistics of a common cause...give them the space to express themselves in each of those scenarios and then when Muslims have evolved enough and given up their petty differences...Pan-Islamism will manifest itself because it is only natural for a Muslim to have more in common about in his 'World-View' with a Muslim than with anyone else ! Just like the West is United by 'Secular Humanism' and 'Judeo-Christian values'...so can the Muslims in due time unite in a common cause !

I did not blame the saudis..

I said the arabs were bunch of backwards held back by their own incompetent leaders in the name of islam...hence the classification..najdi imperialism....

Saudi Arabia, UAE financing radical Deobandi-Wahhabi organizations in Pakistan*|*LUBP

stop derailing the thread....

You did not blame the Saudis...is Najad on the moon ? And they're exporting that Najadi-Imperalism to Pakistan from there ?

And I sincerely doubt the veracity of those cables if a person can't even differentiate between two opposing factions 'the Deobandis and the Ahl-e-Hadtih' and ends up pegging the two together !

 

[DRaisinHerald]

However, I stand by what I said earlier, this 'Pan-Islamism' is better left to a much more mature, cultured and intellectual generation of Muslim Nations...not 'Us'

I agree with you, but you're describing Muslim Unity (better word than Pan Islamic which has negative connotations) as something of a bomb which needs to be handled carefully.

The Unity is simply you being tolerant to your brother in Faith; correct his mistakes, kindly tell him his wrongdoings, tolerate, support when he needs it, not bash because of their colour, race or origins etc and tolerate most of all. That's the sort the Unity is.
You people are trying to describe it as something of a suicidal, grave extremist ideology of the sort.

 

[Armstrong]

I agree with you, but you're describing Muslim Unity (better word than Pan Islamic which has negative connotations) as something of a bomb which needs to be handled carefully.

The Unity is simply you being tolerant to your brother in Faith; correct his mistakes, kindly tell him his wrongdoings, tolerate, support when he needs it, not bash because of their colour, race or origins etc and tolerate most of all. That's the sort the Unity is.
You people are trying to describe it as something of a suicidal, grave extremist ideology of the sort.

You know thats called 'Civility and Ethical Conduct' nothing more ! When I talk about Muslim Unity I envision seeing a Muslim equivalent of the NATO, of the the EU and the OIC to be strengthened enough to be taken seriously; however, thats something that, if it does happen, will happen long after I'm fertilizing some plot of land somewhere !

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Sorry I didn't see these two paragraphs ! Pan-Islamism, to the best of my knowledge, characterizes the very best of Islam that instead of finding unity in such man-made, finite things like ethnicity or linguistics....find it in a common collective consciousness ! I.e Muslims, by and large, have more similarities with each other on everything from life till death, on the purpose of existence etc, then they can have, on average, with any other community in the world !

I agree with everything you said here, although I would like to add that the diversity of our languages & ethnicities is also a sign of God. In my opinion there needs to be a balance between Muslim unity & ethnic & linguistic nationalism. Pan-Arabism for example finds the best common ground between Arab & Islamic nationalism. Here are some interesting links about Pan-Arabism & Arab nationalism:

Arabism: Part One - WikiIslam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_nationalism

The biggest, best proof of what Pan-Islamism could achieve is the formation of Pakistan where millions of Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, despite speaking dozens of different languages and belonging to different ethnic groups, got together under the banner of 'Muslim Nationalism' whereby they wanted to create a state where the Islamic ideology would not only be protected but nurtured and brought in line with modernity ! Unfortunately...we've failed massively in that regard ! But the reason was not the impossibility of such a concept but our ill-will towards our fellow men ! If the West can come together and form one block under the pretext of having a common belief system 'Liberalism, Democracy..the sort'...then we have an exponentially more potential to do the same ! I'm not talking about dissolving our borders but the OIC (as pathetic as it maybe) has a greater potential to pull off what the EU couldn't and what the NATO is doing right now ! However, I stand by what I said earlier, this 'Pan-Islamism' is better left to a much more mature, cultured and intellectual generation of Muslim Nations...not 'Us' ! In fact, something to the effect has been echoed by Iqbal too in his 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam' - that let the Muslims form Nations of their own whether on the basis of ethnicity, linguistics of a common cause...give them the space to express themselves in each of those scenarios and then when Muslims have evolved enough and given up their petty differences...Pan-Islamism will manifest itself because it is only natural for a Muslim to have more in common about in his 'World-View' with a Muslim than with anyone else ! Just like the West is United by 'Secular Humanism' and 'Judeo-Christian values'...so can the Muslims in due time unite in a common cause !

I agree with you here as well, it's not exactly Pan-Islamism that's the problem, the problem is more like the common Pakistani's understanding of it. For example the west is united by Judeo-Christian values, but all of those countries still retain their individual identities, language, & culture. Western nations are still working hard for the development of their own individual nations & aren't obsessed with unity. Many Pakistanis I have met on the other hand are so obsessed with Muslim unity that they are willing to neglect their own country & heritage & let them die in the process. If Pakistanis adopt a mixture of Pan-Islamism along with ethnic & linguistic nationalism like the Arabs have then I think we have the potential to build a great future for ourselves. Muslim nations can try to form a union that resembles the European union, but I honestly don't think too many nations will be interested in that.

The EU for example not only consists of nations with common democratic, secular, & Judeo-Christian values, but those nations share a common European heritage as well. All of these forces or similarities bound together result in a strong form of unity. In the Muslim world if I envision such a bloc coming in to existence it will most likely be an Arab Union of sorts.

 

[Solomon2]

Just starting to peruse this most interesting thread. A few pointers:

Norman Finklestein exposes the lies of the ZIONIST STATE OF ISRAEL.

I've tried reading a book of his, Beyond Chutzpah. I didn't get very far. The reason is that from the introduction onwards the book is full of personal attacks. Anyone who doesn't judge one culture as good as another is a racist in Finkelstein's book. He doesn't perceive that axiomatically judging every culture equal is itself a form of prejudice. "Facts" are crammed and distorted or thrown away to fit this box - and it just doesn't work, so much of it can be picked apart. See the criticisms of reviewers at Amazon for more.

Palestinians is name we use on the people who live in Palestine(Israel), just because they weren't called that before it doesn't mean the people don't exist!!! or they have no legitimate claims -

As anyone who does the research knows, from 1947-1960 or so the term "Palestinian" was synonymous with "Israeli" and before that "Palestinian" meant "Palestinian Jew":

Posters advertising Palestine, 1930s link

There doesn't seem to have been a separate "Palestinian Arab" identity; outside of the cities (where you might find many nationalities) if you weren't a Jew you identified with being a Syrian, Egyptian, Bedouin, or Arab.

Why the change? The United Nations Relief Works Agency, the welfare organization set up to support Arab "refugees" (their definition is a unique one) after 1947, claims credit:

Commissioner-General Grandi:

...education is the crucible of identity, national as well as personal. I believe this is a very important issue for DIHAD’s [DIHAD = Dubai International Humanitarian Aid and Development Conference and Exhibition] consideration: humanitarian crises generate displacement. Displacement threatens identity. Those at most risk, in this respect, are the young. The Palestinian refugee crisis is the biggest, longest, gravest example of this – even more so now, with peace seemingly very distant, the occupation of Palestinian lands becoming bolder every day, and a just and lasting solution of the Palestinian refugee question fading into oblivion. If Palestinians in their dispersal have held on for so long to their identity and their aspiration to a state of their own, it is also due to the forging of their identities in UNRWA schools. link (h/t: EoZ)

UNRWA pushes an identity that promotes making the "refugee" issue insoluble - thus fulfilling the classic bureaucratic imperative of perpetuating a bureaucracy's own existence. So there is a good argument to be made that the "Palestinian" identity is an artificial one and that without external support and Arab social and political constraints it would vanish. That's why I'm of two minds about the "two-state" solution: the primary attempt at forging national identity is to inculcate baseless hatred against the Jewish State, and secondarily hatred against other Arabs and the West. That's a formula for anarchy and/or rapacious murdering Vandals, not a peaceful and prosperous citizenry.

 

[Desert Fox]

Well, the problem here is a particular ideology imported from a country we all know which I do not have to name. The communist revolutin in 1978 was successful with a communist government established. Yet, this ideology caused the talibans to go for bomb blasts and insurgency which lead them to call in USSR. This continued for 10 years. After that, the civil wars destroyed Afghanistan completely. taliban came into power eventually, banning arts, aesthetics, women etc and introducing all sorts of backwardness. Then after 9/11, US invasion.

If it were not for this particular ideology, Afghanistan could have fared well under communist government peacefully. Millions of lives could be saved. I have a collection of photos of Afghani women and society in the 70s and you wouldn't believe how liberal and secular Afghanistan society was at that time before talibanization.

Actually, Communism did not benefit Afghanistan at all. Those pics you have are of the cities where most of the Afghan commies were concentrated so of course they make it look all good and everything, but you are forgetting that under Marxism/Communism no individual is allowed to own land and the government has the ultimate control/authority, and this is where everything went wrong for the Communists because they began to impose their authority on Afghan farmers and Tribesmen, who were of a independent spirit and followed Sufism and majority were Hanafi Sunnis, the commies were forcing them to become Atheists or at least adopt Atheistic way of living, and this in turn alienated the farmers and Tribesmen and finally they began to fight back. This is where the foreign ideologies came in.

 

[chauvunist]

 

[Desert Fox]

Yup Egypt has passed a law that allows men to do sex with their dead wife one last time befre she's shipped to the grave

Please don't spread lies. Egyptian parliament hasn't passed, it, heck i don't think it even reached that far, the law received a lot of criticism from many people.

 

[A1Kaid]

I believe Pakistanis fought with the Arabs, this is probable. But all these funny things how they were never killed in action and took down 50 Israeli fighters is ridiculous.

It was 10 Israeli fighter jets. They are confirmed kills, one member here not too long along posted in well detail the confirmed kills, along with serial numbers, pilot names, medals awarded, Government recognition both Syrian and Pakistani, etc.

The sorties are well documented, there is no denying that.

Excerpt from Global Security:

The Arab-Israel War - 1967

During this war, PAF sent a contingent of its pilots and airmen to Egypt, Jordan and Syria. PAF pilots performed excellently and downed about 10 Israeli planes including Mirages, Mysteres, Vautours without losing a single plane of their own. Flt.Lt. Saif-ul-Azam was decorated by Jordan and Iraq. The performance of PAF pilots was praised by Israelis too. Eizer Weizman, then Chief Of Israeli Air Force said once about Air Marshal Noor Khan (Commander PAF at that time): "...He is a formidable person and I am glad that he is Pakistani not Egyptian..." On 07 June 1967 Flight Lieutenant Saiful Azam, PAF, destroyed an Israeli Mirage in Iraq. In his second encounter with Israelis in the Middle East, he despatched one of the Mirages that were escorting the Israeli Vatour bombers. Moments later, he shot down one of the two escaping Vatour bombers. Two days earlier he had shot down an Israeli Super Mystere over Mafrak Air Base, Jordan. The officer was decorated with gallantry awards after the war both by Jordan and Iraq. He had already earned Sitara-i-Jurat during the 65 war when he shot down an Indian Gnat.

Syria 1974

During this war, Flt.Lt Sattar Alvi was decorated by the Syrian goverment when he shot down an Israeli Mirage over Golan Heights. On 26 April, 1974, in an encounter over Golan Heights between a Mig-21 of the Syrian Air Force, flown by Flight Lieutenant Sattar Alvi, PAF, and two Israeli Mirages. An added feature of this engagement was that the Air Defence Controller, Sqn Ldr Saleem Metla was also a Pakistani. While leading a Mig-21 patrol along the border, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor, also of the PAF was apprised of the presence of two Israeli Phantom aircraft and was cautioned that these could be decoys while two other fast tracks approaching from the opposite direction might be the real threat. The latter turned out to be Mirages and a moment later Alvi, in Arif's formation saw the No 2 Mirage breaking towards him. All this time, heavy radio jamming by Israeli ground stations was making things difficult but the Pakistani pilots were used to such tactics. Sattar forced the Israeli pair into close combat, firing his K-13 missile at the first opportunity. The Israeli wingman's Mirage exploded into a ball of fire, while the leader quickly disengaged.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/air-force-combat.htm

 

[somebozo]

UNRWA pushes an identity that promotes making the "refugee" issue insoluble - thus fulfilling the classic bureaucratic imperative of perpetuating a bureaucracy's own existence. So there is a good argument to be made that the "Palestinian" identity is an artificial one and that without external support and Arab social and political constraints it would vanish. That's why I'm of two minds about the "two-state" solution: the primary attempt at forging national identity is to inculcate baseless hatred against the Jewish State, and secondarily hatred against other Arabs and the West. That's a formula for anarchy and/or rapacious murdering Vandals, not a peaceful and prosperous citizenry.

UNRWA spends 3 times more money per pal refugee versus UNHCR.
Much of this money comes from donations, a large part of it from Arab sheikhdoms who have their own political aspirations to keep the issue sticking like a sore thumb...oh..well ..never mind...Joos control the UN... (sarcastic)

 

[Zabaniyah]

UNRWA spends 3 times more money per pal refugee versus UNHCR.
Much of this money comes from donations, a large part of it from Arab sheikhdoms who have their own political aspirations to keep the issue sticking like a sore thumb...oh..well ..never mind...Joos control the UN... (sarcastic)

Facts please.

 

[A1Kaid]

In case your still in doubt.

Here is a source from a Dutch AF online magazine Scramble.

The Six-Day War between Israel and a number of Arab countries in 1967.
During this conflict the PAF sent personnel to Egypt, Jordan and Syria to support the Arabs in their battle against the Israelis. PAF pilots managed to shoot down ten Israeli aircraft, including Mirages, Mystères and Vautours, without losses on their own side. The PAF pilots operated with Egyptian, Jordanese and Iraqi combat aircraft.

http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm

 

[Desert Fox]

But why is believing in Muslim unity so wrong? Why is that such a spiteful act that you go out of your way to denounce me a hateful "Wahhabi"?

There is no Muslim unity, Arabs spit on us, they don't even consider us their equals. They taunt us "Oh, we are Arabs, the first Muslims, so respect us you ajam because the Prophet (PBUH) was a Arab".

So we must respect them and follow their orders because they are Arab and the Prophet (PBUH) was an Arab therefore we have no right to question them even if their hypocrisy is apparent for everyone to see, instead we must blindly follow them like a herd of sheep and adopt their ideologies instead of thinking for ourselves.

We Pakistanis have our own distinct identity, our own history and our own heroes. Remember, it was Sufi Saints of central Asia, Afghanistan, and Iran as well as local ones who spread Islam here more so than Arab conqueror Muhammad Bin Qassim.

In case your still in doubt.

Here is a source from a Dutch AF online magazine Scramble.



http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm

Here is some info i gathered and posted on a few threads.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...o-best-fighter-pilot-ever-21.html#post2500646

 

[Armstrong]

There is no Muslim unity, Arabs spit on us, they don't even consider us their equals. They taunt us "Oh, we are Arabs, the first Muslims, so respect us you ajam because the Prophet (PBUH) was a Arab".

So we must respect them and follow their orders because they are Arab and the Prophet (PBUH) was an Arab therefore we have no right to question them even if their hypocrisy is apparent for everyone to see, instead we must blindly follow them like a herd of sheep and adopt their ideologies instead of thinking for ourselves.

As it so happens...the few Pakistanis that I do know who've made Saudi Arabia or the UAE (and 2 friends in Kuwait) their Homes,have never mentioned any of this perceived discrimination ! I'm sure there are people within their ranks who think along those lines but are they in the majority ? I would think not ! Tis also true that an Arab will feel more affinity towards an Arab because their culture and language is more or less the same....isn't it also true that we feel the same kind of affinity towards North-Indians because they speak the same language as us ? Does it imply in either of those cases that the Arabs are going to ditch us because we don't speak the same language or the Indians are going to embrace us as brothers because we do ? I would think that such would be a myopic view to look at these things; people have multiple identities and none of them are, usually, mutually exclusive of the others. For example, I'm a Kashmir by ethnicity, a Punjabi by culture, an Urdu speaker by linguistics, a Muslim by faith, a Sunni by fiqh and a Pakistani by nationality ! Does that imply that I'd somehow favour a Punjabi over a Non-Punjabi in any debate or that I'd side with a Sunni over a Shi'ite ? No, it simply means that I'd follow the natural order of things and be more comfortable around those who have the most things in common with me. I believe the same can be said about the Arab-Pakistani relations !

We Pakistanis have our own distinct identity, our own history and our own heroes. Remember, it was Sufi Saints of central Asia, Afghanistan, and Iran as well as local ones who spread Islam here more so than Arab conqueror Muhammad Bin Qassim.

Indeed we do have a distinct identity of our own and one of our greatest failure has been to not recognize it ! We are Punjabis, Sindhis, Pathan, Baloch and a whole host of other ethnic and linguistic groups that constitute the modern day State of Pakistan ! And we mustn't loose track of that ! At the same time we mustn't loose track of that one identity of ours that supersedes every other - We are first and foremost - Muslims !