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Palestinian Arabs went on a murderous rampage within hours of the Partition vote

Both. Palestinian Arabs hate Jews to this date.


Because defenders were able to defend themselves after initial losses.


In war killings and massacres happen on both sides


Counter terrorism

You are in serious delusion man ....

How can a person be defender when he in first place do not own the place ...

If someone comes your home and start claiming your home as his ... while you try to kick him out of your home ... he calls his friends from the neighbourhood and start showing his wounds and whole of his neighborhood kick you out of your own house saying you are oppressor and hurting a poor innocent sole ... What would you call that man ??? innocent ... and by your definition you must be the opressor ...

Jews were not living in Palestine since last 2 thousand years ... They settled in Palestine only in 19th century ... Man go and read some history ...
 
Is that really any different to the HEC's instructions?
Yes, because the HEC is explicitly related to gov't policy, not a set of shared values. If you still think that's the same thing, then you're accepting the Pakistani gov't has the right to dictate what is right and what is wrong - which is exactly what I'm claiming is the case.

Well then, Hamas' rockets are aimed at Israeli military HQs, not civilians -
You have the right to your own opinion but not your own facts. Did you even attempt to look up anything that would contradict this narrative?

The source of that timeline is unabashedly pro-Palestine. That doesn't mean the facts it presents aren't truthful or "highly selective". Indeed it does present the "other side" of the issue - it just shows how untruthful it often is.
These sentences are claims that can be investigated and verified or debunked. If you have no interest in seeking out information that debunks them because it's against your prejudices or "against policy" then you aren't behaving morally.

I have, indeed, investigated some of the "pro-Palestinian" assertions. They almost always break down under scrutiny - try it yourself! In the last instance the Arab defended his stance on the grounds that such lying "is our culture" and while I'm not sympathetic I suppose he has a point - what would happen to him otherwise?

...How can a person be defender when he in first place do not own the place ....
The "Palestinians" turned the truth upside-down. The League of Nations and the Caliphate established the Palestine Mandate and explicitly encouraged Jews to "closely settle" Palestine, respecting the civil and property rights of the locals. This the Jews did. (The Arabs were supposed to do the same elsewhere in ex-Ottoman lands but did not). State lands the Jews were entitled to gratis, while private lands - often waste lands - were purchased from Arabs, often absentee landlords, at enormous prices. Both times when the ruling power changed - 1920 and 1947 - the Arabs - attempted to murder the Jews and steal the Jews' property.

They have a historical tradition of such behavior: in the 19th century Western countries sent gunboats to protest the murder of Ottoman-approved Western missionaries: the Arabs welcomed them, sold them land, then killed them once the land was improved, or at harvest time, splitting the loot with local Ottoman governors.

I've not included any links to back myself up here. The reason is that if you're an honest researcher you will investigate for yourself and post verification here. If not, you'll do something else - but that's still dishonesty, so why should any Pakistani who wants a less corrupt and more honest Pakistan support you?

Jews were not living in Palestine since last 2 thousand years ... They settled in Palestine only in 19th century ... Man go and read some history ...
I have read some history. The Jewish population was at times very small but continuous.
 
Yes, because the HEC is explicitly related to gov't policy, not a set of shared values. If you still think that's the same thing, then you're accepting the Pakistani gov't has the right to dictate what is right and what is wrong - which is exactly what I'm claiming is the case.

You have the right to your own opinion but not your own facts. Did you even attempt to look up anything that would contradict this narrative?

These sentences are claims that can be investigated and verified or debunked. If you have no interest in seeking out information that debunks them because it's against your prejudices or "against policy" then you aren't behaving morally.

I have, indeed, investigated some of the "pro-Palestinian" assertions. They almost always break down under scrutiny - try it yourself! In the last instance the Arab defended his stance on the grounds that such lying "is our culture" and while I'm not sympathetic I suppose he has a point - what would happen to him otherwise?

The "Palestinians" turned the truth upside-down. The League of Nations and the Caliphate established the Palestine Mandate and explicitly encouraged Jews to "closely settle" Palestine, respecting the civil and property rights of the locals. This the Jews did. (The Arabs were supposed to do the same elsewhere in ex-Ottoman lands but did not). State lands the Jews were entitled to gratis, while private lands - often waste lands - were purchased from Arabs, often absentee landlords, at enormous prices. Both times when the ruling power changed - 1920 and 1947 - the Arabs - attempted to murder the Jews and steal the Jews' property.

They have a historical tradition of such behavior: in the 19th century Western countries sent gunboats to protest the murder of Ottoman-approved Western missionaries: the Arabs welcomed them, sold them land, then killed them once the land was improved, or at harvest time, splitting the loot with local Ottoman governors.

I've not included any links to back myself up here. The reason is that if you're an honest researcher you will investigate for yourself and post verification here. If not, you'll do something else - but that's still dishonesty, so why should any Pakistani who wants a less corrupt and more honest Pakistan support you?

I have read some history. The Jewish population was at times very small but continuous.

And by what rights Ottoman allowed Jews the rights to settled on Palestinian lands ? Ottaman were Turkish ...

And even if they allowed to settled how does this transform into right to rule ???

Common man atleast be honest to yourself ... Atleast accept the truth that you occupy Palestine by treachery ... initially you just travelled in the name of Nazi germany ... and by bribing weakest Ottaman empire and while whole muslims got destroyed by your western friends you occupy the land ...

I wonder ,,, how come the innocent jews purchased barren land ... developed them well ... were just farmers and traders ... and the barbaric arabs who owned the land were settled there from 1300 years and whereas christan arabs from 2000 years ... still jews just purchased land for business but ultimately end up in having the whole country ... great achievement ... does it sounds like story of innocent or occupier ??
 
You have the right to your own opinion but not your own facts. Did you even attempt to look up anything that would contradict this narrative?
It is a fact that Hamas claims it only targets the Israeli Military. Even your beloved Elder of Ziyon reported it: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/12/hamas-continues-to-claim-it-only.html

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/top-hamas-commander-we-only-target-israeli-soldiers-2080884287
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183681

You claimed the King David Hotel bombing was aimed at the British HQ, therefore (in your opinion) it's justified - but civilians died there. So it's not justified.

Hamas claims its rockets are aimed at Israeli military targets, therefore (in their opinion) it's justified - but civilians die in those attacks, and you and other Israeli Propagandists immediately condemn Hamas for it.

So it's perfectly fine when Irgun does it but pure evil when Hamas does it.

That is pure hypocrisy.
Yes, because the HEC is explicitly related to gov't policy, not a set of shared values.
Israel's policy of oppressing and suppressing Palestinians is explicitly related to govt policy. And so is Britain's Prevent strategy.

Besides, the values associated with being against the illegal occupation of Palestine is a set of shared values among Pakistanis anyways.

Spin it around as much as you want, the fact is that the people of Pakistan collectively and unequivocally support the Palestinians and their struggle against occupation, regardless of what the Government says.

I've not included any links to back myself up here. The reason is that if you're an honest researcher you will investigate for yourself and post verification here. If not, you'll do something else - but that's still dishonesty, so why should any Pakistani who wants a less corrupt and more honest Pakistan support you?
That is a hilariously nonsensical excuse for not being able to back your claims up with facts.

These sentences are claims that can be investigated and verified or debunked. If you have no interest in seeking out information that debunks them because it's against your prejudices or "against policy" then you aren't behaving morally.

I have, indeed, investigated some of the "pro-Palestinian" assertions. They almost always break down under scrutiny - try it yourself! In the last instance the Arab defended his stance on the grounds that such lying "is our culture" and while I'm not sympathetic I suppose he has a point - what would happen to him otherwise?
Rather than telling me BS stories about some argument you had with "an Arab", why don't you actually just debunk the claims and be done with it? Because you can't.
 
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  • Wednesday, November 30, 2016
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    Elder of Ziyon
Palestinian Arabs went on a murderous rampage within hours of the Partition vote

Today is the anniversary of the beginning of Israel's War of Independence.

Because in the hours immediately following the UN partition vote, Palestinian Arabs started attacking Jews wherever they could find them.

Here are articles from the Palestine Post the next day:








The descendants of these people are now pretending at the UN that they deserve a state based on the resolution that they so violently rejected.
And the UN now whitewashes the facts that the entire Arab world, and specifically the Palestinian Arabs, opposed the resolution in its video about the resolution. (As well as how Jordan and Egypt occupied "Palestinian land" in 1948.)

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United Nations

✔@UN

This year's #PalestineDay observance in NYC will feature embroidery, a Dabka performance + more.
12:05 AM - 29 Nov 2016


Not that different from Zionists hunting down Palestinians and murdering them on the spot.


You Zionists deserve it.
 
No such record in the article.

The fact that's twisting Pakistanis minds into ill-logic and militarism is the refusal to admit that the Arabs have been the aggressors and the Jews are in the right in the Arab-Israeli conflict. You can't say it because the gov't compels you to. But the least you can do is to not endorse shameful anti-Zionist lies.
How ridiculous. You're basing your entire argument on a heavily bias article.

Your argument is an oversimplification of what actually happened, namely how the British empire promised both the zionist and arab sides things it couldn't keep, which led to the war and the creation of Israel.

For you to say that one was the aggressor and the other was in the right, it is intellectually dishonest.
 
Wowww so wiki is now book of history ... if you are not jew then go and ask any jew and ask what is diaspora and whats the duration of last diaspora ... it is hillarious when guys like you who do not have even basic information on topic starts giving opinion on complex issues ...

Jews were expelled out of palestine 2000 years back and were not allowed to have permanent establishment untill ottama cliphate became ao weak that it remained just a stooge to western gov

These are undispuuted facts ...
 
And by what rights Ottoman allowed Jews the rights to settled on Palestinian lands ? Ottaman were Turkish ...

And even if they allowed to settled how does this transform into right to rule ???

Common man atleast be honest to yourself ... Atleast accept the truth that you occupy Palestine by treachery ... initially you just travelled in the name of Nazi germany ... and by bribing weakest Ottaman empire and while whole muslims got destroyed by your western friends you occupy the land ...

I wonder ,,, how come the innocent jews purchased barren land ... developed them well ... were just farmers and traders ... and the barbaric arabs who owned the land were settled there from 1300 years and whereas christan arabs from 2000 years ... still jews just purchased land for business but ultimately end up in having the whole country ... great achievement ... does it sounds like story of innocent or occupier ??

You should study the Land Law introduced by the Ottoman Empire in 1848.
Then You understand better.
The concept of ownership in this law is based on usage.
If You use the land and REGISTER your usage, you own the land.
If you stop using the land, Your property is returned to the state.
This law was especially designed to allow the Ottoman Empire to use ethnical cleansing
and then expropriate land of the new refugees.

Registering your land, also means You are likely to get taxed or conscripted,
so a lot of farmers never registered their usage, thus they did not own the land they farmed.

It is estimated that 70% of Israel at the time of Independence was owned by the state.
In 1948, that was the British Government, and the new government was the state of Israel.

This law is what is used to expropriate land in the West Bank.
Rocky Hills are not "used" and thus the land belong to the state, or the occupying power
according the the Israeli Supreme Court.
Areas used by Palestinians for growing olive trees, are off limits according to the same court.

So put the blame where it belongs, on the Ottoman Empire.
 
You should study the Land Law introduced by the Ottoman Empire in 1848.
Then You understand better.
The concept of ownership in this law is based on usage.
If You use the land and REGISTER your usage, you own the land.
If you stop using the land, Your property is returned to the state.
This law was especially designed to allow the Ottoman Empire to use ethnical cleansing
and then expropriate land of the new refugees.

Registering your land, also means You are likely to get taxed or conscripted,
so a lot of farmers never registered their usage, thus they did not own the land they farmed.

It is estimated that 70% of Israel at the time of Independence was owned by the state.
In 1948, that was the British Government, and the new government was the state of Israel.

This law is what is used to expropriate land in the West Bank.
Rocky Hills are not "used" and thus the land belong to the state, or the occupying power
according the the Israeli Supreme Court.
Areas used by Palestinians for growing olive trees, are off limits according to the same court.

So put the blame where it belongs, on the Ottoman Empire.

I am not giving ottomans clean chitt .. they are resposible ... but if there is flaw in law and britishers and jews exploit it fully to drive the people from their own land then thus it means that you are not occupier ??

Even britishers were occupier and occuped the land by force ... how they could gave it to israel ...

Its like someone rob a person and gave the proceeds of robbery a friend .... and then the person in possession of items start claiming as rightful owner of the items .... is it correct ???

Israel must at minimum accept that they are occupier and stop playing drama of innocent and deprived ones ...
 
I am not giving ottomans clean chitt .. they are resposible ... but if there is flaw in law and britishers and jews exploit it fully to drive the people from their own land then thus it means that you are not occupier ??

Even britishers were occupier and occuped the land by force ... how they could gave it to israel ...

Its like someone rob a person and gave the proceeds of robbery a friend .... and then the person in possession of items start claiming as rightful owner of the items .... is it correct ???

Israel must at minimum accept that they are occupier and stop playing drama of innocent and deprived ones ...

The British did not give anything to Israel.
There was a vote in the UN general assembly proposing a division of the Mandate
and Great Britain abstained from voting.
The Mandate was divided into three parts. Jordan, Palestine and Israel.

Arab propaganda exaggerated threats to Palestinians causing a large part to flee,
so while actions like the Deir Yassin massacre was bad, Arab propaganda made it even worse than it was.
The plan was to get help from surrounding Arab nations, but it backfired.

Your description is wrong.
Most of the farmers never owned the land, and those that "owned" the land never paid for it.
How can You rob something from someone that does not own this thing.

It is alien to Western thinking of ownership, that is for sure of course.

I have always said that the solution to the conflict is not looking at what is legal,
You have to ask what is fair.
The Arab approach to cry that Israel is illegal, is non constructive, because it is wrong.
They would be much more successful if they asked for what is fair.

Asking Israelis born in Israel to move out is hardly fair either.
 
The British did not give anything to Israel.
There was a vote in the UN general assembly proposing a division of the Mandate
and Great Britain abstained from voting.
The Mandate was divided into three parts. Jordan, Palestine and Israel.

Arab propaganda exaggerated threats to Palestinians causing a large part to flee,
so while actions like the Deir Yassin massacre was bad, Arab propaganda made it even worse than it was.
The plan was to get help from surrounding Arab nations, but it backfired.

Your description is wrong.
Most of the farmers never owned the land, and those that "owned" the land never paid for it.
How can You rob something from someone that does not own this thing.

It is alien to Western thinking of ownership, that is for sure of course.

I have always said that the solution to the conflict is not looking at what is legal,
You have to ask what is fair.
The Arab approach to cry that Israel is illegal, is nonconstructive because it is wrong.
They would be much more successful if they asked for what is fair.

Asking Israelis born in Israel to move out is hardly fair either.


First of all go and check Balfort declaration which was the prime document form as the basis of formation of Israel ... moved by Britan ...

Even wiki has info available on that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Second part about ownership of land ... Is Palestine is west ??? Why are you applying western concept of ownership of land on east ??? Is it contradiction ???

My friend most of the territory of Pakistan is owned by government it is always like that ... Poor farmers use to grow crop on these government lands and then sell it to earn their living even today ... so 80 years back ownership of land was even more informal ... By your concept if someone occupies Pakistan then on the basis most of the land is owned by gov of Pakistan therefore the occupier automatically owns land legally ... How this is logical or even legal ??? In any case whatever agreement between jews, Britain and ottoman happened it was out of result of direct force... ottoman lands were occupied and they gave their right as they did not had capacity to fight ...

Regarding fair ...In the first place jews are occupier of palestine ... so if they have been oppressor so long so their childs are now even grown old so does this change the reality that jews come in Palestine as occupiers through various treacherous methods ?
 
First of all go and check Balfort declaration which was the prime document form as the basis of formation of Israel ... moved by Britan ...

Even wiki has info available on that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Second part about ownership of land ... Is Palestine is west ??? Why are you applying western concept of ownership of land on east ??? Is it contradiction ???

My friend most of the territory of Pakistan is owned by government it is always like that ... Poor farmers use to grow crop on these government lands and then sell it to earn their living even today ... so 80 years back ownership of land was even more informal ... By your concept if someone occupies Pakistan then on the basis most of the land is owned by gov of Pakistan therefore the occupier automatically owns land legally ... How this is logical or even legal ??? In any case whatever agreement between jews, Britain and ottoman happened it was out of result of direct force... ottoman lands were occupied and they gave their right as they did not had capacity to fight ...

Regarding fair ...In the first place jews are occupier of palestine ... so if they have been oppressor so long so their childs are now even grown old so does this change the reality that jews come in Palestine as occupiers through various treacherous methods ?
Jews have a continuous presence in the land of Israel for 3222 years at least,the "palis" immigrated to our land when we were weak,in the last 150 years we bought parts of the land back,and released further part in defensive wars,there are parts of the land of israel which still occupied by arabs,don't worry we will free them too.
 
First of all go and check Balfort declaration which was the prime document form as the basis of formation of Israel ... moved by Britan ...

Even wiki has info available on that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Second part about ownership of land ... Is Palestine is west ??? Why are you applying western concept of ownership of land on east ??? Is it contradiction ???

My friend most of the territory of Pakistan is owned by government it is always like that ... Poor farmers use to grow crop on these government lands and then sell it to earn their living even today ... so 80 years back ownership of land was even more informal ... By your concept if someone occupies Pakistan then on the basis most of the land is owned by gov of Pakistan therefore the occupier automatically owns land legally ... How this is logical or even legal ??? In any case whatever agreement between jews, Britain and ottoman happened it was out of result of direct force... ottoman lands were occupied and they gave their right as they did not had capacity to fight ...

Regarding fair ...In the first place jews are occupier of palestine ... so if they have been oppressor so long so their childs are now even grown old so does this change the reality that jews come in Palestine as occupiers through various treacherous methods ?

The Balfour declaration speaks about a Jewish Homeland, but has no legal implications.

As for the legality of British presence...
For starters, the Ottoman land was only Ottoman, as a result of conquest.
Conquest used to be a perfectly legal way to acquire land.

The British did not occupy the Mandate in the legal sense, due to the treaty signed after WW1,
where the Ottoman Empire ceeded their claim to the area. That makes the transfer legal.
Thus land owned by the government of the Ottoman Empire also was transferred to Great Britain.
Great Britain ceeded their claim to the Mandate when they left, and Israel claimed the part of the Mandate
within their borders as the successor.
The formation of Israel was after a vote in the UN general assembly, and countries
accept that the UN can make decisions.
Only the UNSC can make binding resolutions, but following the result of a vote in the General Assembly
can hardly be considered illegal.

When Israel was formed, the Arab population did not automatically lose their property.
Any Arab that remained kept their property, only those that left, lost their property which
is perfectly legal according to the Ottoman land law.
Likewise jews that left Arab countries for Israel lost their belongings.

After the formation of Israel, the West Bank was occupied and then annexed by Jordan.
Very few countries except for Pakistan recognized the annexation.
In 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and Jordan later revoked their annexation, leaving the West Bank in limbo.
Israels Supreme Court assumes that they as occupiers have the right to act like the government,
and applies the land law of the Ottoman Empire, where ownership of unused "Dead" land is transferred
to the government , i.e. Israel.
It is implied that if Israel leaves the area for the formation of a new state, the government land
will be transferred to the new state.
Anyone that starts to use Government land will get ownership of the land (while they are there),
so settlements take ownership, when they form.
Settlements created on land in use are illegal, and have been terminated by the Israeli Supreme Court.
It is illegal to "transfer" your population into occupied territory, according to the Geneva Convention.
What is questionable is whether the Geneva Convention is applicable since it is only applicable between parties
which has signed the convention and the Palestinian authorities did not sign until a few years ago.
There is nothing in the convention which says that it is to be applied retroactively,
so the legality of anything on the West Bank is highly questionable.
While the Palestinians have announced a state it is not recognized by Israel,
and Israel does not neccessarily consider the West Bank as a part of an occupied Palestinian state.

So the transfer of land is according to Ottoman Law.
If Western Law had been in force, then Palestinians owning land would not lose it, if they left.

I repeat that Palestinians have difficulty getting what they want if laws and conventions are followed strictly.
They have to argue for a fair settlement of the conflict.
 
The Balfour declaration speaks about a Jewish Homeland, but has no legal implications.

As for the legality of British presence...
For starters, the Ottoman land was only Ottoman, as a result of conquest.
Conquest used to be a perfectly legal way to acquire land.

The British did not occupy the Mandate in the legal sense, due to the treaty signed after WW1,
where the Ottoman Empire ceeded their claim to the area. That makes the transfer legal.
Thus land owned by the government of the Ottoman Empire also was transferred to Great Britain.
Great Britain ceeded their claim to the Mandate when they left, and Israel claimed the part of the Mandate
within their borders as the successor.
The formation of Israel was after a vote in the UN general assembly, and countries
accept that the UN can make decisions.
Only the UNSC can make binding resolutions, but following the result of a vote in the General Assembly
can hardly be considered illegal.

When Israel was formed, the Arab population did not automatically lose their property.
Any Arab that remained kept their property, only those that left, lost their property which
is perfectly legal according to the Ottoman land law.
Likewise jews that left Arab countries for Israel lost their belongings.

After the formation of Israel, the West Bank was occupied and then annexed by Jordan.
Very few countries except for Pakistan recognized the annexation.
In 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and Jordan later revoked their annexation, leaving the West Bank in limbo.
Israels Supreme Court assumes that they as occupiers have the right to act like the government,
and applies the land law of the Ottoman Empire, where ownership of unused "Dead" land is transferred
to the government , i.e. Israel.
It is implied that if Israel leaves the area for the formation of a new state, the government land
will be transferred to the new state.
Anyone that starts to use Government land will get ownership of the land (while they are there),
so settlements take ownership, when they form.
Settlements created on land in use are illegal, and have been terminated by the Israeli Supreme Court.
It is illegal to "transfer" your population into occupied territory, according to the Geneva Convention.
What is questionable is whether the Geneva Convention is applicable since it is only applicable between parties
which has signed the convention and the Palestinian authorities did not sign until a few years ago.
There is nothing in the convention which says that it is to be applied retroactively,
so the legality of anything on the West Bank is highly questionable.
While the Palestinians have announced a state it is not recognized by Israel,
and Israel does not neccessarily consider the West Bank as a part of an occupied Palestinian state.

So the transfer of land is according to Ottoman Law.
If Western Law had been in force, then Palestinians owning land would not lose it, if they left.

I repeat that Palestinians have difficulty getting what they want if laws and conventions are followed strictly.
They have to argue for a fair settlement of the conflict.

But according to you the ottomans revoked their right to the land. So why are you using Ottoman law?


Also I have already gone over this with you thick-skulled Zionists already. Israel is an illegal state by every meaning of the word.
 

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