Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[Jliu]

well, I think you mentioned something earlier about DCN "delaying" a certain technology transfer to india, maybe in hopes of wooing Pakistan. I'm hoping that the Scorpene isn't the best of the best, but I've heard from Indian sources, that their Scorpene will be able to dive deeper than others.

Upcoming Marlin deal at IDEAS 2008 maybe?

The P75 Scorps are intended for multirole interdiction and surveillance duties for both Pacific and Indian Oceans. It makes sense to increase the diving depth to suit the Pacific operating theatre by est. 50m more given the specs of the platform? Unfortunately for the Indians the Scorpene design as a whole has become dated with both design houses introducing new designs that improve on every key parameter by which we in the RAN mean:

1-sensor fit incl sonar, EW, ELINT suites

2-acoustic sig management (ASM)

3-weapons fit

I still think the french will give much more in marlin, since it's their own complete project. not like the scorpene, where they were partnered with Spain.

Naturally-the S80 was born when the Spanish became fed up over work share and sensor ToT so they called in the British and Americans (RN and LM) to redesign and lengthen the hull and supply the sensor fit. So its really a US-Brit-Spanish SSK for US allied nations and a top contender for our Collins replacement.

well, that's why we should get the Marlin! it's still on the drawing board, nothings concrete just like the barracuda itself. perhaps the french can use the U214 as a measuring stick. The Marlin will go to the next level, in SSK design. just like you said, it'll be almost a copy of the barracuda, except miniaturised.

i'm not going to ask you what the evo-Scorpene is, but I will ask you, does india have it?

I’m certain the Marlin is already well past the drawing board stage as of 2008 when the marketing has heated up. To clarify, when I’m referring to evo-Scorps I mean ‘evolved Scorpene’ designs such as the S80 and Marlin which are what we call ‘Tier/Gen 3 designs’ that were designed and conceptualised in the 2000’s drawing from COTS and “sensor fusion” ie. ‘big picture’ signals analysis from all sonars, ELINT, EW gear generated by a highly advanced CMS. The only other Tier 3 design for export is the U214. For the record the Scorpene (‘mini Rubis&#8217 was designed and conceptualised in the mid 90’s, did not make use of COTS and failed RAN and ROKN sensor fusion requirements (the Koreans used ours so at least DCNS can draw some cold comfort from that).

The IN has traditionally been a German/Russian client so they would logically move to the next phase and procure the U214 Tier 3 design to “counter” PN Tier 3 designs and give the IN a qualitative capability overmatch v the older PN variants barring another idiotic repeat of 2005.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Jliu,

I meant in the Indo Pak Context.... Kilos and U boats around... Foxtrot also.

Truce is exceptable to me provided you are not the one Breaking it

Correct that all Diesels are silent and difficult to compare with exact certainity but what i mentioned is what people who have been on different platforms mentioned. Daphane was considered the sleeping Shark.. RAN used to have it ... also the Agosta 70's.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Agreed that Tier 3 Design available inculde U-214 and Marlin.

I disagreed with U-214 acquisition by PN for a fact that it doesnot suite PN requirements and the main players in the deal from PN know that. Have to keep in mind the future of PN as a self sustained and self reliant entity with an Infrustructure for Submarine Building and not only retrofits.

The tech what French navy required when DCN was given the contract for replacing Rubis Amethyste Class Subs required a major upgrade in all expects. The Sub design incorporates technologies to minimise the acoustic, magnetic and radar signatures. The High silent running speed and manoeuvrability.The combat system shall integrate active and passive sensors, electronic, optronic and optical sensors and data processing, signal processing of downloaded external tactical data, the launch and control of torpedoes, missiles and countermeasures, external communications and navigation. The communications suite includes satellite and extra-long-frequency acoustic links. Will include an Integrated Platform Management System (IPMS). The Barracuda will have a displacement of about 4100 t surfaced which is more than Double that of Rubis Class. The maximum speed will be 25kt and the diving depth more than 350m.

A Mini Barracuda can be Tier-3 Plus provided the work DCN is putting up for Barracuda.

U-214 is an excellent boat but Let Marlin Swim then we shall compare.

 

[ahussains]

I alos always support to go towards the FRENCH they are much reliable and we are very much familiar with the french technology

 

[araz]

Thank you to all the experts here who have contributed. Could someone please take the time and patience to explain how Submarines are categorized into generations and what capabilities are required to categorize the sub as belonging to a certain generation.
thanks in advance for your help
Araz

 

[Jliu]

Correct that all Diesels are silent and difficult to compare with exact certainity but what i mentioned is what people who have been on different platforms mentioned. Daphane was considered the sleeping Shark.. RAN used to have it ... also the Agosta 70's.

We've never operated Daphnes.

And the IN Kilos in particular also have the moniker "black holes".

 

[Jliu]

Agreed that Tier 3 Design available inculde U-214 and Marlin.

I disagreed with U-214 acquisition by PN for a fact that it doesnot suite PN requirements and the main players in the deal from PN know that. Have to keep in mind the future of PN as a self sustained and self reliant entity with an Infrustructure for Submarine Building and not only retrofits.


The tech what French navy required when DCN was given the contract for replacing Rubis Amethyste Class Subs required a major upgrade in all expects. The Sub design incorporates technologies to minimise the acoustic, magnetic and radar signatures. The High silent running speed and manoeuvrability.The combat system shall integrate active and passive sensors, electronic, optronic and optical sensors and data processing, signal processing of downloaded external tactical data, the launch and control of torpedoes, missiles and countermeasures, external communications and navigation. The communications suite includes satellite and extra-long-frequency acoustic links. Will include an Integrated Platform Management System (IPMS). The Barracuda will have a displacement of about 4100 t surfaced which is more than Double that of Rubis Class. The maximum speed will be 25kt and the diving depth more than 350m.

U-214 is an excellent boat but Let Marlin Swim then we shall compare.

Keep in mind the metrics for an SSK will vary considerably from the figures put out for the Barracuda. Nevertheless if you believe the DCN guys the Marlin sounds like the best SSK out there.

 

[Jliu]

Thank you to all the experts here who have contributed. Could someone please take the time and patience to explain how Submarines are categorized into generations and what capabilities are required to categorize the sub as belonging to a certain generation.
thanks in advance for your help
Araz

There is no formal generation classification per se for SSKs among navies and even then there are various methods of assessing platform capability. This is because as I have mentioned earlier different vendors taking different 'philosophical' approaches to SSK design. The French prefer an incremental 'phasing' approach ie. simply developing an "mini" SSK version of an existing SSN design as we can see with the Scorpene/Rubis and Marlin/Barrcauda. The Germans, Swedes and to an extent Russians prefer a mission driven and focused design approach resulting in numerous versions of one design optimised for a certain mission set or geographical locale.

This makes it difficult to categorise design generations so most Western navies and industry have decided to assess "generations/tiers" (and by implication capability) by a) the time period of design conceptualisation and b) the technological base of the platform. Present Tier Three platforms include the U212 and derivatives U214 and Dolphin, Marlin, S-80A, Swedish designs/Collins class and the Japanese Soryu and Oyashio. There is disagreement over whether the Scorpene should be included (I believe not) but it has been added (IN variant only) after the sensor fit of the Indian P75 project became known.

T3 platforms were conceptualised in the 2000's and incorporate Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) technology in the sensors and Combat Management System (CMS) with the open systems architecture model providing flexible improvements in computing/processing power to be added to the platform when available. However what clearly separates Tier Three designs from previous designs is 'sensor fusion' capability which combines a certain standard of high quality data from all sensors into a big picture via the central CMS as elaborated by P2BP's post earlier on this page. The second distinction between a T3 and non T3 platform is the hydrodynamics of the T3 platform that facilitate the placement and effectiveness of sensors mounted on the hull. T3 platforms feature overwhelmingly CAD 'teardrop' (cigar shaped) hulls that optimise flow (with the placement of sensors all over the hull and behind it) as well as certain performance related characteristics such as X shaped Tailplanes and thrusters? for littoral maneuvering eg. U212 and Marlin although it should be noted that other T3 designs such as the S-80A and U214 feature normal Cross shaped Tailplanes. This is what truly distinguishes T3 platforms from non T3 platforms say a new build Agosta90 that has been fitted with the latest sensors.

Other indications of a T3 design include the fit of an AIP system and the use of a new generation of torpedos such as the Blackshark, DM2A4, Mk48 and the upcoming French improvement on the BS (although these are generalisations). Therefore we only make the distinction between non Tier Three and Tier Three platforms except in the case of specific country comparisons such as the Indo-Pak undersea arms for TRADOC purposes. The reason for all the hype surrounding T3 designs is that by nature SSKs and all submarines are area/sea denial weapons in an era where 95% of the world's transport particularly of food and petroleum is carried by sea. T3 designs promise unprecedented survivability for an SSK and cause give naval strategists around the world nightmares in terms of one sitting in a national SLOC. Indeed, my job is to devise ways in the TRADOC field to kill SSKs in the most efficient and quick way.

 

[Jliu]

I alos always support to go towards the FRENCH they are much reliable and we are very much familiar with the french technology

That is undoubtedly true although the French have a tendency to sell 'goodies' to both sides in the Indo-Pak context given their foreign policy of balancing the subcontinent so don't exactly be surprised to see Scorpenes or Marlins operated by both navies just as both now operate equipment from the same vendor.

 

[fatman17]

That is undoubtedly true although the French have a tendency to sell 'goodies' to both sides in the Indo-Pak context given their foreign policy of balancing the subcontinent so don't exactly be surprised to see Scorpenes or Marlins operated by both navies just as both now operate equipment from the same vendor.

PN sources say that the scorpene deal signed by the IN prohibits sale of scorpene to the PN!

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Ironically, whatever has been done in TOT of Agosta's has not been taken to a level which is called a Self Reliance level. Like when you get a tech knowledge you start a R&D and develope associated infrustructure for Materials and equipments developement and procurement and an overall understanding of the system you are getting Involved in. PN and GOP should have started a Project of 3 New Agosta's all completely integerated and developed within Pakistan with R&D involved and with atleast 30% of the components made in Pakistan for the 1st Sub but it was not done. We have the ability to grow in this field by the experience and Infrustructure developed but we require atleast 5 years and associated Infrustructure to become self reliant and developing a Sub of our own with Technical help of DCN.

P2BP, I found this while I was digging for "indigenous" projects actively being pursued by our military.

Pakistan Navy to launch Agosta-90B Submarine next Month
'Pakistan Times' Sindh Bureau

KARACHI: Pakistan Navy’s defensive capability will be further enhanced when the indigenously built Agosta-90B submarine of the French origin, PNS/M HAMZA, will be launched next month.

This was stated by Commodore Shahid Saeed, general manager of the submarine construction project of the Pakistan Navy, during an onsite media briefing organised at the Naval Dockyard on Monday.

The submarine is being built under a contract signed by the ministry of defence production on Sept 21, 1994, with the French company, DCN International, for three Agosta-90B submarines.

Under the contract first submarine Khalid was built in France and was handed over to the PN in September 1999. The second submarine, SAAD, partially built in Pakistan, joined the PN fleet in December 2003.

Regarded as a hallmark of indigenous efforts, construction of the third submarine, Hamza, started in 1998 with planning and work preparation, followed by fabrication of 12 pressure hull sub-sections and culminating into three pressure hull sections.

This was followed by mounting of light bulkheads, internal tanks and ballast panels in August 2003.

After completing all the necessary work and acceptance trials in harbour and at sea, the submarine will be handed over to the PN fleet as a fully operational unit after completion of all trials, in June next.

Hamza is regarded as the most advanced version of Agosta design. It is 76 metres long and weighs around 2,000 tons. It has a range of 10,000 nautical miles and can remain at sea for continuously 60 days.

According to Mr Saeed, the submarine is equipped with state-of-the-art combat system — Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System — which is capable of firing SM-30 Exocet missiles and wire-guided torpedoes.

On completion it will have 50 officers and men on board.

The unique feature of the submarine is its Air Independent Propulsion system, MESMA, making it capable of achieving greater underwater endurance and long range.

This will also provide the enhanced reconnaissance with greater stealth, making it an ideal platform for offensive operations, said the commodore.

Media was informed that steps had been taken to involve local industry in submarine construction programme, which was continuation of the naval construction efforts that started in 1971.

Besides resulting in transfer of advanced technology, the submarine construction project, he claimed, had changed quality culture and work methodology. A team of 300 engineers and technicians were trained in France.

The foreign-trained personnel trained 600 more personnel in Pakistan in various construction skills of the submarine to meet the challenges of modern warfare in which submarines play a vital role.

Commodore Saeed said the Hamza submarine project was a significant leap in self-reliance in defence production and had enabled the PN to undertake more conventional submarine projects for its future needs.

Pakistan Times | Top Story: Pakistan Navy to launch Agosta-90B Submarine next Month

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Jliu
well, what do you think? do you think the deal will eventually go through? I still hope that Pakistan gets the Marlin, though.

You can easily talk with the french to secretly integrate deadly weapons like cruise missiles or transfer critical technology, but with the germans, I'm sure you'd get a "threat of arms race in the sub-continent (although this only applies to Pakistan and never India)" or "cruise missiles falling into the hands of terrorists".

Even if pakistan doesn't get the U214, I still think it'll be better to get the Marlin or even the Song class submarines. I remember hearing from a senior who used to work for lockheed, that the french were secretly transfering technology to china. I trust his info, he even said he had a chinese friend involved in the project who could confirm that.

Besides, we can still cooperate with Turkey even if we do get a different sub. the turks are going for a more "indigenous" drive in naval technology, although I think they may be overdoing and underestimating it a bit. AFAIK, the turks plan to use only the hull design for the U214 with germans working in turkey, which means that we could possibly get a lot of help on our own designs for the future. a three-way technology outlet, turkey-china-france.

Turkey’s advanced submarine project goes to German companies

Turkey decided yesterday to start contract negotiations with Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH and Marine Force International LLP (HDW/MFI) joint partnership group for the acquisition of six air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarines to be built at Turkey’s Gölcük naval shipyard at a cost of around 2.5 billion euros.

This will be the first time that Turkey includes AIP submarines in its inventory.
Turkish industrial participation in the project will be worth around 80 percent of the total value of the deal, Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said, speaking to the press following yesterday’s meeting of the Executive Committee of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM).

“For the first time Turkey will receive 80 percent of the offset pledge [from a foreign competitor] in a navy project. This indicates the increased level of Turkish defense technology,” he said.

Around 20 systems and sub-systems will be produced by local Turkish industry and integrated into the submarines, he added, with the first submarine to be delivered in 2015.

DCNS (Armaris) from France and Navantia S.A. from Spain were the other competitors in the Turkish tender, announced in December 2006. The AIP 214 submarines to be acquired are in the inventories of very few countries, Gönül said, adding that those submarines stay at sea for more than 50 days, a multifold increase of the duration Turkish submarines in inventory can currently stay submerged.

The submarines will also have the capability to navigate under the sea for around 18 to 20,000 kilometers, he said. According to Gönül, guarantees that Turkey received on several technical issues, including the engineering work, played a significant role in the selection of the German company.

HDW/MFI pledged to bring the technology and infrastructure for the first vertical production of the submarines at the Gölcük shipyard.

If a contract is signed with the German company for the joint production of the AIP 214 submarines, cooperation on the production of the same type of submarines with Pakistan will also become possible, Gönül said, while answering questions.

Turkey’s advanced submarine project goes to German companies

 

[fatman17]

P2BP, I found this while I was digging for "indigenous" projects actively being pursued by our military.

Pakistan Navy to launch Agosta-90B Submarine next Month
'Pakistan Times' Sindh Bureau

KARACHI: Pakistan Navy’s defensive capability will be further enhanced when the indigenously built Agosta-90B submarine of the French origin, PNS/M HAMZA, will be launched next month.

This was stated by Commodore Shahid Saeed, general manager of the submarine construction project of the Pakistan Navy, during an onsite media briefing organised at the Naval Dockyard on Monday.

The submarine is being built under a contract signed by the ministry of defence production on Sept 21, 1994, with the French company, DCN International, for three Agosta-90B submarines.

Under the contract first submarine Khalid was built in France and was handed over to the PN in September 1999. The second submarine, SAAD, partially built in Pakistan, joined the PN fleet in December 2003.

Regarded as a hallmark of indigenous efforts, construction of the third submarine, Hamza, started in 1998 with planning and work preparation, followed by fabrication of 12 pressure hull sub-sections and culminating into three pressure hull sections.

This was followed by mounting of light bulkheads, internal tanks and ballast panels in August 2003.

After completing all the necessary work and acceptance trials in harbour and at sea, the submarine will be handed over to the PN fleet as a fully operational unit after completion of all trials, in June next.

Hamza is regarded as the most advanced version of Agosta design. It is 76 metres long and weighs around 2,000 tons. It has a range of 10,000 nautical miles and can remain at sea for continuously 60 days.

According to Mr Saeed, the submarine is equipped with state-of-the-art combat system — Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System — which is capable of firing SM-30 Exocet missiles and wire-guided torpedoes.

On completion it will have 50 officers and men on board.

The unique feature of the submarine is its Air Independent Propulsion system, MESMA, making it capable of achieving greater underwater endurance and long range.

This will also provide the enhanced reconnaissance with greater stealth, making it an ideal platform for offensive operations, said the commodore.

Media was informed that steps had been taken to involve local industry in submarine construction programme, which was continuation of the naval construction efforts that started in 1971.

Besides resulting in transfer of advanced technology, the submarine construction project, he claimed, had changed quality culture and work methodology. A team of 300 engineers and technicians were trained in France.

The foreign-trained personnel trained 600 more personnel in Pakistan in various construction skills of the submarine to meet the challenges of modern warfare in which submarines play a vital role.

Commodore Saeed said the Hamza submarine project was a significant leap in self-reliance in defence production and had enabled the PN to undertake more conventional submarine projects for its future needs.

Pakistan Times | Top Story: Pakistan Navy to launch Agosta-90B Submarine next Month

thanks for the post - obviously an old news item - i would be careful of the source / contents of the article - pakistan times being a govt. sponsored newspaper!

 

[araz]

Jliu
well, what do you think? do you think the deal will eventually go through? I still hope that Pakistan gets the Marlin, though.

You can easily talk with the french to secretly integrate deadly weapons like cruise missiles or transfer critical technology, but with the germans, I'm sure you'd get a "threat of arms race in the sub-continent (although this only applies to Pakistan and never India)" or "cruise missiles falling into the hands of terrorists".

Even if pakistan doesn't get the U214, I still think it'll be better to get the Marlin or even the Song class submarines. I remember hearing from a senior who used to work for lockheed, that the french were secretly transfering technology to china. I trust his info, he even said he had a chinese friend involved in the project who could confirm that.

Besides, we can still cooperate with Turkey even if we do get a different sub. the turks are going for a more "indigenous" drive in naval technology, although I think they may be overdoing and underestimating it a bit. AFAIK, the turks plan to use only the hull design for the U214 with germans working in turkey, which means that we could possibly get a lot of help on our own designs for the future. a three-way technology outlet, turkey-china-france.

Turkey’s advanced submarine project goes to German companies


Turkey’s advanced submarine project goes to German companies

Asad
If people on our sister forum are to be believed, PN is close to ordering U214 and negotiations are in advanced stages. It is possible that PN might order 2 now and make a follow up order for another 2 as the economy improves. Nobody wants to comment on how much the turkish decision would help PN in offsetting cost of the vessel. Also Milgem seems to impress people in PN more and more. The person I am quoting has previously been a good source on PN's naval acquisitions. My role here is just as a messenger.
Regards
Araz

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Asad
If people on our sister forum are to be believed, PN is close to ordering U214 and negotiations are in advanced stages. It is possible that PN might order 2 now and make a follow up order for another 2 as the economy improves. Nobody wants to comment on how much the turkish decision would help PN in offsetting cost of the vessel. Also Milgem seems to impress people in PN more and more. The person I am quoting has previously been a good source on PN's naval acquisitions. My role here is just as a messenger.
Regards
Araz

araz, believe me, I already know who you're talking about. Yes, he is quite "in-the-know" about PN's acquisitions, but I still think he has his own thoughts and ideas on the U214 and why it should be purchased.

not to say that the PN doesn't either, I think the navy is in over their heads this time on the U214. keep in mind the germans are offering a very "arrogant" deal, with no compromise, no extra goodies, nothing. which is why I'm pissed off as well, this shows way too much "sucking up" to the germans on behalf of the PN. Look at how the indians try to get the most out of their deals, and look at us how much we suck up for F-16's.

they have already sold to india before and they will do it again. you also have the israelis, who hold a significant leverage amongst the germans. it's the holocaust wound that the germans are stained with.

honestly, the french are in my opinion, the only westerners that accomodate islamic nations. look at Iraq, do you think the germans would sell weapons to outcast nations like france does? this may be going past the line a bit, but you have to understand, the situation doesn't look good for us seeing how we are an islamic nation. israel lobbying against the sale is proof of that.

we already have the basic infrastructure set up to build french submarines. why waste money and time to get a totally different type of submarine? the french have already given us full transfer of technology, which according to Jliu, they aren't giving completely to india.

they will offer us the marlin, a "mini-Barracuda", if we let some info out. keep in mind, the Barracuda is France's next nuclear powered attack submarine. i can bet you big money, they will help us integrate a VLS for babur onto our subs. trust me, if they can secretly help the chinese who are supposed to be embargoed by Europe, they can definitely help us out. you already know the germans will never do anything like that.

cooperation with turkey on naval technology will always be there. we are definitely getting MILGEM. and believe me, we do have a nuclear submarine program in the works. the turkish, chinese, and french, if we go with the marlin, can always help out. the reactor we are developing ourselves, this much I know. we can easily get help in systems and hull designs from our allies. buy from the french and it will be similar to the russians helping the indians on their n-sub.