Pakistan's slice of the moon

[Zibago]

I don't think most parents of Indians, or Pakistanis for that matter, in their 30s or 40s want their children to put effort and resources into beginning human exploration of the Moon and Mars. These parents want their children to go the traditional desi way of school-college-job-marriage-children cycle.

Though I must say that there were quite a few Indians ( and Pakistanis maybe ) who put themselves up as candidates for the Mars One project. I am willing to do a one-way trip to Mars if given the chance.

@RealNapster @Levina @Zibago

Until there is a way to extend your mortal life to something greater I have zero interest in space travel

 

[RealNapster]

All these subjects all useless and most of the students chose these subjects

Every subject have reasons behind its existance.

 

[B.K.N]

Every subject have reasons behind its existance.

I know but when millions of students are studying same subject it loses it's value

 

[RealNapster]

And I want to add I am not one bit impressed with this moon shot. This is just India trying to polish it's international image and at the same time giving bigger chests for all the poor masses inside India. A useless goodwill effort. Other than that it has no other import.

USSR was a great federation. Yet its citizens suffered in day to day life. But it was indeed a great federation. Even america, with lot of poverty, where 45 million citizens rely on SNAP food stipend, yet a great country. India can be that. Not just polishing its image.

I know but when millions of students are studying same subject it loses it's value

yup. And its the case with engineering now a days.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

USSR was a great federation. Yet its citizens suffered in day to day life. But it was indeed a great federation. Even america, with lot of poverty, where 45 million citizens rely on SNAP food stipend, yet a great country.

You can't possibly equate the poverty in magnitude or intensity in India with USSR or USA. My point is the primary driver behind this moonshot was 'show'. There is no tangible benefit. It's just to say 'we are in same category with USA, Russia, China".

yup. And its the case with engineering now a days.

Is Pakistan lacking in quality STEM graduates? If not why does it have to depend on Chinese to build it's highways, import technology products?

 

[Riyaz Syed]

Sindhis are mercantile people. Punjabis and Pathans are suited for military. Muhajirs are bureaucrats.

India has Bengalis, Parsis and Southern Indians who are into science and technology.

Anyway, I don't think advanced space program is suitable for India at this moment. We should focus more on eradicating poverty.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

https://www.dawn.com/news/1496468/pakistans-slice-of-the-moon

MONDAY’S launch of the Chandrayaan-2 water-finding moon mission is a significant demonstration of India’s scientific and engineering capacity. It puts India firmly within a select group of countries prowling the solar system for commercial, strategic, and scientific reasons. Pakistanis naturally want to know where they stand in science — of which space exploration is just a small part — and why. What gave India this enormous lead over Pakistan?

It is natural that India’s Hindutva government should boast Chandrayaan-2 as its own achievement and claim continuation with imagined glories from Vedic times. But rightfully the credit goes elsewhere. Just imagine if history could be wound back by 70-80 years and prime-minister Jawaharlal Nehru was replaced by Narendra Modi.

Instead of astronomy, today’s India would be pursuing astrology. Its university departments would have many ganitagayons but few mathematicians, an army of rishis would outnumber physicists. The cure for cancer would be sought in yoga while floods and earthquakes would somehow be linked to cow slaughter. Instead of devising Chandrayaan, Indian scientists would be searching for the fictitious Vimana of Ravana.

The atheistic Nehru brought to India an acceptance of European modernity. For this Hindutva hates him even more than it hates India’s Muslims and Christians. Still, his insistence on ‘scientific temper’ — a singularly odd phrase invented while he was still in prison — made India nurture science. Earlier, vigorous reformers like Raja Ram Mohan Roy (1772-1833) had shown the path. As long as Nehru stood tall no rishi, yogi, or army general could head a science institution

Will Pakistan also get a slice of the moon? That depends upon the quality of our scientists and if a culture of science develops. Of course, Pakistan never had a Nehru. A further setback happened in the Ziaul Haq days when Sir Syed Ahmad Khan’s modernism had its remaining flesh eaten off by Allama Iqbal’s shaheen. As if to compensate the loss of appetite for science, buildings for half-a-dozen science institutions were erected along Islamabad’s Constitution Avenue. They could be closed down today and no one would notice. Today’s situation for science — every kind except agriculture and biotechnology — is dire.

The official website of the National Space Agency of Pakistan (Suparco) is silent on space exploration plans. Born a year before its Indian counterpart ISRO, Suparco lists its earliest achievement as the periodic launches of US-supplied weather monitoring Rehbar rockets between 1962 and 1972. The most recent activity listed is of July 9, 2018, when China launched two remote sensing satellites for Pakistan to monitor progress on CPEC. One of the two “was indigenously designed and solely developed by Suparco, and is primarily aimed at remote sensing”.

As a space-filler this pathetic website speaks in hushed terms about the Hatf and Shaheen-III missile programmes but falls short of saying what Suparco’s role was, if any. The last four chairmen of Suparco, together with their educational qualifications, are listed as Maj Gen. Raza Husain (2001-2010, BSc), Maj Gen. Ahmed Bilal Husain (2010-2016, MSc), Maj Gen. Qaiser Anees Khurram (2016-2018, BSc), and Maj Gen. Amer Nadeem (2018-present, BSc).

National achievements in space science being so lean, where should bright young Pakistani science buffs be pointed towards? Every day they read of some great achievement — spacecraft landing on asteroids, new planets being discovered, black holes colliding in distant galaxies, etc. But Pakistan’s three most celebrated scientists have precious little to offer. Let’s call them X, Y, Z.

X appears to have lost his earlier passion for bombs and missiles and these days is mostly concerned with finding religious cure to cancer as well as advising women on how to deal with menopause problems. Y is (or was?) under a NAB investigation because he spent Rs4.69 billion gasifying Thar coal but failed to produce a single watt of electricity. He may be in much hotter water once the Reko Diq investigation gets going and his role in the Tethyan Copper affair is revealed. Mishandling Reko Diq currently threatens Pakistan with a mind boggling $5.9bn fine. Z has clawed his way back to power but cannot explain why billions spent upon his institute have not produced a single useful pharmaceutical product.

Lacking guidance from knowledgeable elders, a few of Pakistan’s most gifted kids have found their own way. I have been astonished and thrilled to meet some. Aged 12-18, like hungry animals, they have gorged themselves on distance learning materials offered by Stanford, MIT, Coursera, etc. They seem to owe nothing to their environment, teachers, and even their parents. Some are village bumpkins, others are English-speaking urbanites. Natural genius propels them. But how far?

It’s good that such talent is achieving some recognition. Fawad Chaudhry, the newly appointed minister of science and technology, told me that he plans to start 1500 STEM schools for exceptional students. One hopes that the right students will be selected and that by some miracle good teachers can be found. Chaudhry should realise that the chance of failure will be one hundred per cent if students are graded by ratta-promoting local examination boards. Duffers must never be allowed to judge geniuses; alternatives must be explored.

More encouraging news: Pakistani doctors in the US are fabulously rich but are not known to spend their money wisely or well. That may be changing. Last month, at the annual meeting in Florida, the Association of Physicians of Pakistani Descent of North America (APPNA) put out an appeal to create an institute that would identify and support young people with exceptional math/physics talent. Let’s hope that that pans out.

Pakistan’s chance of a moon shot — unless on the back of a Chinese rocket — will stay zero for a long time. There is no reason to cry about this. Much more important problems need to be addressed. Solving them needs a strong scientific base at every step. Creating this base calls for developing scientific attitudes and dumping non-scientific ones. Symbolically this amounts to putting Sir Syed ahead of Allama Iqbal as a national icon. Impossible? Maybe. But, as they say, you can’t make an omelet without breaking an egg.

The writer teaches physics in Lahore and Islamabad.

Published in Dawn, July 27th, 2019

There are 1.4 billion indians on this planet. There are more indians on the earth than White people. Yet the indian race has to use the inventions, science, technology, equipment and expertise of the White European race to make their space program possible. That is not an achievement but an IMITATION. If the indian race COULD DO all the above 100% indigenously themselves, then it would be an achievement. But not till then.

You can't possibly equate the poverty in magnitude or intensity in India with USSR or USA. My point is the primary driver behind this moonshot was 'show'. There is no tangible benefit. It's just to say 'we are in same category with USA, Russia, China".

Is Pakistan lacking in quality STEM graduates? If not why does it have to depend on Chinese to build it's highways, import technology products?

india IS NOT in the same league as America, Russia, China, the West and never will be. America, Russia, China and the West 100% indigenously invent and produce the sciences & technologies to make their space programs possible. india just uses the inventions of the White European races to do the same. They invent and produce NOTHING of worth THEMSELVES.

 

[Progressive1]

Hoodbhoy is one of best Pakistani , we should develop culture of reasoning and questioning.

 

[third eye]

There are 1.4 billion indians on this planet. There are more indians on the earth than White people. Yet the indian race has to use the inventions, science, technology, equipment and expertise of the White European race to make their space program possible. That is not an achievement but an IMITATION. If the indian race COULD DO all the above 100% indigenously themselves, then it would be an achievement. But not till then.

Going by this logic the car you travel in , the cell phone used , the TV set etc are all invented else where.

Let’s ( re) invent them before we make them

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Going by this logic the car you travel in , the cell phone used , the TV set etc are all invented else where.

Let’s ( re) invent them before we make them

They were ALL invented by non-Pakistanis and are therefore not the achievement of Pakistan. I admit this. Are you suggesting they were invented by indians?????????


You don't need to re-invent them but you CANNOT claim their successes as they were ALL invented and produced by non-indians.

 

[Naman Mathur]

They were ALL invented by non-Pakistanis and are therefore not the achievement of Pakistan. I admit this. Are you suggesting they were invented by indians?????????


You don't need to re-invent them but you CANNOT claim their successes as they were ALL invented and produced by non-indians.

Space science isnt some mugging up of text books that you just cram and apply, no country gives you the tech for free, the cryogenics, the orbital mechanics, the metallurgy, all those has to be developed inhouse, thats why only a few countries have been able to do it successfully. Or else every other country would be doing if it was that easy. Space exploration wasnt initiated by India, but that doesnt mean we will not try to excel in it. And if you have to be at the forefront, you have to first go through the same journey as the others, you dont suddenly wake up and say i will do a moon mission. Its a process that requires a start. And yes we can be proud of our success cuz this isnt some lego set you read manual and just join the pieces.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Space science isnt some mugging up of text books that you just cram and apply, no country gives you the tech for free, the cryogenics, the orbital mechanics, the metallurgy, all those has to be developed inhouse, thats why only a few countries have been able to do it successfully. Or else every other country would be doing if it was that easy. Space exploration wasnt initiated by India, but that doesnt mean we will not try to excel in it. And if you have to be at the forefront, you have to first go through the same journey as the others, you dont suddenly wake up and say i will do a moon mission. Its a process that requires a start. And yes we can be proud of our success cuz this isnt some lego set you read manual and just join the pieces.

A lot of what you say, I agree with. But you have to ask yourself, WHY IS IT ALWAYS the White European and occasionally the East Asian races who 100% indigenously invent, pioneer, design and create these technologies in the first place? Why is it NEVER members of the indian race? Once developed, it is fairly straightforward to use these technologies. The success comes from 100% indigenously invented these things YOURSELVES.

 

[Peshwa]

A lot of what you say, I agree with. But you have to ask yourself, WHY IS IT ALWAYS the White European and occasionally the East Asian races who 100% indigenously invent, pioneer, design and create these technologies in the first place? Why is it NEVER members of the indian race? Once developed, it is fairly straightforward to use these technologies. The success comes from 100% indigenously invented these things YOURSELVES.

Said who?
Even the white race built upon inventions/scientific finding of others to get to this point.
Inventions, scientific findings are a cyclical process of history.
It all depends on patronage of sciences and funding by the ruling entity (in past cases, it was kings and empires, now it’s the govt).
If you look at history, Egyptians, Indians (subcontinent), Chinese, Muslims (civilization/caliphate) All had their contributions to science earlier, that the Europeans built upon to be where they are today. They just happened to invest more money and manpower to science and tech in the last century while the rest of the world was busy prioritizing other things.

The Muslim civilization during the Middle Ages (if we are to use the countries that fell within the boundaries of let’s say the caliphate) in its present terms is quite backwards in science and tech or any new inventions in the last 100 years, But doesn’t take away from the fact that they did contribute tremendously to science and tech in the past that the Europeans built upon.
The Chinese invented the gunpowder, but can you give them all the credit for the modern weapons that used the fundamentals of gunpowder to build the modern rifles? NO.
Those were inventions of the west built upon existing tech.

Point is, for India to contribute to “new inventions” it first needs to take the journey and learn, and projects such as the chandrayaan are positive steps towards that learning which may help us build upon existing technologies to get to the point of inventing something new.
Doesn’t take anything away from India.

 

[RealNapster]

You can't possibly equate the poverty in magnitude or intensity in India with USSR or USA. My point is the primary driver behind this moonshot was 'show'. There is no tangible benefit. It's just to say 'we are in same category with USA, Russia, China

Well (i agree it was a show) if this is show then sending a car to space is definitely a show. Our (world) space research haven’t reach to the point that things start making sense and we only do what is logical and needed. Sure the day will come when humans will colonize mars and develope moon to act as a station but that day is very far away. Currently its like you give a programable calculator to a kid, he will do addition, subtraction, multiplication but he don’t know how to do the things this calculator have in its name i.e; “programing” in it. He will take his time, he will experiment new keys and commands each day, and one day he will be able to do the actual work that this calculator is meant for.

Is Pakistan lacking in quality STEM graduates? If not why does it have to depend on Chinese to build it's highways, import technology products

Well i studied BS emgineering from Pakistan #4 uni in engineering and currently i am doing Ms from Pakistan’s # 1 uni in engineering and let me tell you this. There is no “T” and “M” in our “E”. Sure i studied 5 mathematics subjects in Bs degree but Trust me. Its not worth it.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Said who?
Even the white race built upon inventions/scientific finding of others to get to this point.
Inventions, scientific findings are a cyclical process of history.
It all depends on patronage of sciences and funding by the ruling entity (in past cases, it was kings and empires, now it’s the govt).
If you look at history, Egyptians, Indians (subcontinent), Chinese, Muslims (civilization/caliphate) All had their contributions to science earlier, that the Europeans built upon to be where they are today. They just happened to invest more money and manpower to science and tech in the last century while the rest of the world was busy prioritizing other things.

The Muslim civilization during the Middle Ages (if we are to use the countries that fell within the boundaries of let’s say the caliphate) in its present terms is quite backwards in science and tech or any new inventions in the last 100 years, But doesn’t take away from the fact that they did contribute tremendously to science and tech in the past that the Europeans built upon.
The Chinese invented the gunpowder, but can you give them all the credit for the modern weapons that used the fundamentals of gunpowder to build the modern rifles? NO.
Those were inventions of the west built upon existing tech.

Point is, for India to contribute to “new inventions” it first needs to take the journey and learn, and projects such as the chandrayaan are positive steps towards that learning which may help us build upon existing technologies to get to the point of inventing something new.
Doesn’t take anything away from India.

What happened 500-1000 years ago is irrelevant now. Not including East Asians, ALL OTHER non-Whites CANNOT invent or produce advanced technologies or sciences by THEMSELVES. They continuously need the help and inventions of the White race like small petulant children. That goes for Muslims AND Pakistanis as well.