Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Arsalan]

What I know is FN SCAR has outclassed every other Gun. And I think reports have been sent to leadership. FN SCAR if selected will come with TOT and their are no political issues but would have to talk to Russia for AK-103 thoughts of few low rank officers. No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin and yes they are offering SU-35 and MI-28 and Pantsir S2 and others. This political issue thing was personal opinion of few lower rank officers not senior guys. As for local designing and development well most likely not going to happen. FN SCAR is not only favourite due to performance but also because of the versions FN are offering from Heavy 7.62 to Light to Carbine and even a version which can replace our MP5. Some friends are also telling about AK-105 being tested ( for Special Forces ) but it's in 5.45 X 39 caliber but Russia may offer 7.62 version in it. Finally I think for selecting a Gun of 7.62 X 39 calliber a totally new trial should take place in which AK-400 and AK-12 along with other 7.62 X 39 caliber Guns from around the world should be tested.

It may have, in performance, but as mentioned the trials are just going to be ONE of the parameters that decide which gun is selected. There will be a lot of others things to be considered when making the decision. ToT or license manufacturing? That is another thing but still all bases are not covered. This is a gun and not some aircraft where ToT will be the deal breaker. Things like the intellectual rights, authority to manufacture and export, offer to be the registered partner for parts supply etc are few other things that will be given great importance in this case and rightly so. Whether SCAR or anyone else will offer that or not are just speculation right now. What they say in there marketing page do not necessarily mean an official stance for EVERY scenario. All things will be considered and a decision for the first batch will be made only then.

As for local gun, I mentioned this earlier as well, there is a lot of support in the concerned posts still. I am talking director level and am confirming this based on personal discussion with them. Now whether this is or will be the right move or not is a separate and I am not debating that, just stating the fact HOW IT IS.

Lastly, I agree that if we are option for two type, even if the other is in limited number we should have had trials for that too.7.62 x 39 is to be bought in lower numbers and also because the other one have a more complex and detailed future planned (in far greater numbers, looking for export rights etc, possibility of a local gun in this category etc) thus the extensive trials! Still, trials for 7.62 x 39 would be good.

One thing that i would just add, although i know you wont understand is that things with Russia are NOT like what you say dear. It is not like "No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin ...." as you said in your post . It is not only us who have an army chief or have government officials. Others have them too and many would love to undermine and sabotage your projects. It is not like "No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin "
It is not like this WITH ANYONE for God's Sake!

 

[Zarvan]

It may have, in performance, but as mentioned the trials are just going to be ONE of the parameters that decide which gun is selected. There will be a lot of others things to be considered when making the decision. ToT or license manufacturing? That is another thing but still all bases are not covered. This is a gun and not some aircraft where ToT will be the deal breaker. Things like the intellectual rights, authority to manufacture and export, offer to be the registered partner for parts supply etc are few other things that will be given great importance in this case and rightly so. Whether SCAR or anyone else will offer that or not are just speculation right now. What they say in there marketing page do not necessarily mean an official stance for EVERY scenario. All things will be considered and a decision for the first batch will be made only then.

As for local gun, I mentioned this earlier as well, there is a lot of support in the concerned posts still. I am talking director level and am confirming this based on personal discussion with them. Now whether this is or will be the right move or not is a separate and I am not debating that, just stating the fact HOW IT IS.

Lastly, I agree that if we are option for two type, even if the other is in limited number we should have had trials for that too.7.62 x 39 is to be bought in lower numbers and also because the other one have a more complex and detailed future planned (in far greater numbers, looking for export rights etc, possibility of a local gun in this category etc) thus the extensive trials! Still, trials for 7.62 x 39 would be good.

One thing that i would just add, although i know you wont understand is that things with Russia are NOT like what you say dear. It is not like "No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin ...." as you said in your post . It is not only us who have an army chief or have government officials. Others have them too and many would love to undermine and sabotage your projects. It is not like "No problem just Army Chief needs to have a talk with Putin "
It is not like this WITH ANYONE for God's Sake!

I know about the concerned posts and as for AK-103. AK is independent company and do mostly what they want and hardly take pressure. As for local design I know about interest in by some officials but idea now is pretty much dropped and it would be decided on these Gun trials. Only funny part is G3M is still equally good to SCAR when it comes to accuracy but has much more weight and not much room for further modifications and also can't offer different caliber

 

[Arsalan]

I know about the concerned posts and as for AK-103. AK is independent company and do mostly what they want and hardly take pressure. As for local design I know about interest in by some officials but idea now is pretty much dropped and it would be decided on these Gun trials. Only funny part is G3M is still equally good to SCAR when it comes to accuracy but has much more weight and not much room for further modifications and also can't offer different caliber

No matter how independent one thinks a private contractor is, there always is someone pulling those strings! We of all people should understand that.
For Local gun, sorry to say this but you are wrong. It is far from being dropped and there still is a strong support in concerned circles. Also please note that you wont be hearing anything about it for quite a few years. Once the current gun selection process completes and a decision is made even then i am not sure there will be a mention of a local design. However i am just telling you what is going on and what i was not stopped from telling.

The current decision will be based on factors far more detailed then only performance. The Trials we hear about are just to gauge that performance aspect. There will be and is a lot going on behind closed doors.

 

[Zarvan]

FNH USA Shows Off New 7.62×39 Mk. 17 SCAR Prototype

Posted October 13, 2015 in Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 67 Comments

The FN-made 7.62×39 SCAR, long rumored to be a dead project, has resurfaced. FNH USA was showing off a variant of the Mk. 17 SCAR Heavy at the 2015 Association of the United States Army annual meeting this week. The rifle is apparently in the earlier stages of development, as it appears to have a rapid prototyped lower receiver.SoldierSystems.net reports:


Many thought the AK compatibility requirement for the SOF Combat Assault Rifle had fallen off the table. Not true. Rather, USSOCOM initially concentrated in the impending need for 5.56 and 7.62NATO variants. Now, FN has built a 7.62×39 version of the Combat Assault Rifle to fulfill a requirement. with the CAR contract entering its second five years, you’ll start to see these models hitting the field as a reliable alternative to battlefield pickup AKs.



The rifle obviously differs from the standard SCAR17 in its lower receiver, which has a magwell dimensioned for AK magazines, and a matching lever release, but also a new gas block with nofolding front sight, similar to the Mk. 16-derived FNAC carbine.



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/13/fnh-usa-shows-off-new-7-62x39-mk-17-scar-prototype/

 

[Army research]

FNH USA Shows Off New 7.62×39 Mk. 17 SCAR Prototype

Posted October 13, 2015 in Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 67 Comments

The FN-made 7.62×39 SCAR, long rumored to be a dead project, has resurfaced. FNH USA was showing off a variant of the Mk. 17 SCAR Heavy at the 2015 Association of the United States Army annual meeting this week. The rifle is apparently in the earlier stages of development, as it appears to have a rapid prototyped lower receiver.SoldierSystems.net reports:


Many thought the AK compatibility requirement for the SOF Combat Assault Rifle had fallen off the table. Not true. Rather, USSOCOM initially concentrated in the impending need for 5.56 and 7.62NATO variants. Now, FN has built a 7.62×39 version of the Combat Assault Rifle to fulfill a requirement. with the CAR contract entering its second five years, you’ll start to see these models hitting the field as a reliable alternative to battlefield pickup AKs.



The rifle obviously differs from the standard SCAR17 in its lower receiver, which has a magwell dimensioned for AK magazines, and a matching lever release, but also a new gas block with nofolding front sight, similar to the Mk. 16-derived FNAC carbine.



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/13/fnh-usa-shows-off-new-7-62x39-mk-17-scar-prototype/

I almost shouted when I saw this but alas Pakistan cannot afford this unless it comes in package with original scar version and grenade launcher then we could replace every single gun in entire armed forces from pilot pdw to officer scar l to western troops with this I hope the chief sir sees this post one of our units with these could deal with any Afghans and blow their torkham posts with scars grenade launcher

Would officers be allowed to buy guns for personal use if scar gives fn gives us tot

 

[Max Pain]

FNH USA Shows Off New 7.62×39 Mk. 17 SCAR Prototype

Posted October 13, 2015 in Guns & Gear, News, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 67 Comments

The FN-made 7.62×39 SCAR, long rumored to be a dead project, has resurfaced. FNH USA was showing off a variant of the Mk. 17 SCAR Heavy at the 2015 Association of the United States Army annual meeting this week. The rifle is apparently in the earlier stages of development, as it appears to have a rapid prototyped lower receiver.SoldierSystems.net reports:


Many thought the AK compatibility requirement for the SOF Combat Assault Rifle had fallen off the table. Not true. Rather, USSOCOM initially concentrated in the impending need for 5.56 and 7.62NATO variants. Now, FN has built a 7.62×39 version of the Combat Assault Rifle to fulfill a requirement. with the CAR contract entering its second five years, you’ll start to see these models hitting the field as a reliable alternative to battlefield pickup AKs.



The rifle obviously differs from the standard SCAR17 in its lower receiver, which has a magwell dimensioned for AK magazines, and a matching lever release, but also a new gas block with nofolding front sight, similar to the Mk. 16-derived FNAC carbine.



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/13/fnh-usa-shows-off-new-7-62x39-mk-17-scar-prototype/

If true, this can even remove the need for that Type 56 replacement,

one SCAR to rule em all.

 

[Zarvan]

I almost shouted when I saw this but alas Pakistan cannot afford this unless it comes in package with original scar version and grenade launcher then we could replace every single gun in entire armed forces from pilot pdw to officer scar l to western troops with this I hope the chief sir sees this post one of our units with these could deal with any Afghans and blow their torkham posts with scars grenade launcher

Would officers be allowed to buy guns for personal use if scar gives fn gives us tot

Belgium is offering entire package I mean all versions

 

[Army research]

Belgium is offering entire package I mean all versions

Why don't we have it
I mean thus will improve our boys survival rate Alot

 

[Zarvan]

FN SCAR in hands of Belgian Soldier

 

[Sulman Badshah]

SCAR L 5.56mm variant in Pakistan .

 

[Quwa]

No matter how independent one thinks a private contractor is, there always is someone pulling those strings! We of all people should understand that.
For Local gun, sorry to say this but you are wrong. It is far from being dropped and there still is a strong support in concerned circles. Also please note that you wont be hearing anything about it for quite a few years. Once the current gun selection process completes and a decision is made even then i am not sure there will be a mention of a local design. However i am just telling you what is going on and what i was not stopped from telling.

The current decision will be based on factors far more detailed then only performance. The Trials we hear about are just to gauge that performance aspect. There will be and is a lot going on behind closed doors.

One problem with the new designs - i.e. SCAR, CZ, ARX, etc - is that they're too new. In the world of rifles, 5 years worth of combat experience - while a lot - pales in comparison to the market, which is flush with designs packing decades of usage, improvements, feedback, etc. Even some new designs, e.g. HK-416/417, are essentially late model iterations of the older AR-15 platform. If the PA does this responsibly, we're not going to see a "final" decision for some quite time, though I do think we may actually see multiple types bought in 1K+ batches for mass comparative testing, feedback, iterative improvements, etc.

 

[Zarvan]

 

[Zarvan]

 

[Super Falcon]

HK 417 SHOULD BEEN INCLUDED can be toughest contender and hard to neglect diversity which HK 417 gives in battlefield

 

[That Guy]

I almost shouted when I saw this but alas Pakistan cannot afford this unless it comes in package with original scar version and grenade launcher then we could replace every single gun in entire armed forces from pilot pdw to officer scar l to western troops with this I hope the chief sir sees this post one of our units with these could deal with any Afghans and blow their torkham posts with scars grenade launcher

Would officers be allowed to buy guns for personal use if scar gives fn gives us tot

I've said it a million times, Pakistan will not being buying millions of rifles right from the beginning. Rifles aren't like fighters or tanks, you can buy them in smaller, cheaper batches, and in longer terms.

The only issue Pakistan will have is being able to buy the tot and being able to pay for the manufacturing plants at POF, which it probably already plans to do.

HK 417 SHOULD BEEN INCLUDED can be toughest contender and hard to neglect diversity which HK 417 gives in battlefield

View attachment 320072 View attachment 320073 View attachment 320074

Pakistan sent in a request for hk's participation, HK didn't respond...at least that's what the general belief is.

Why don't we have it
I mean thus will improve our boys survival rate Alot

It's a competition, may the best rifle win, and it seems like the ARX, SCAR and the Bren are on top of the list.

One problem with the new designs - i.e. SCAR, CZ, ARX, etc - is that they're too new. In the world of rifles, 5 years worth of combat experience - while a lot - pales in comparison to the market, which is flush with designs packing decades of usage, improvements, feedback, etc. Even some new designs, e.g. HK-416/417, are essentially late model iterations of the older AR-15 platform. If the PA does this responsibly, we're not going to see a "final" decision for some quite time, though I do think we may actually see multiple types bought in 1K+ batches for mass comparative testing, feedback, iterative improvements, etc.

This.

While 1K+ seems a bit much, elite army and special forces units will likely get their hands on the top rifles that PA is thinking about. Those will likely be field tested against insurgents, and/or in live fire exercises.

Personally, I still think ARX has the best chance of winning. The SCAR price per system is far too much, and the Bren probably doesn't have the confidence of the PA. ARX hits that sweet spot between being a high end gun with a high end price, but being cheaper than the SCAR.