Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[CriticalThought]

So this incident happened in a Karachi hospital. Someone's security guard was standing outside the operation theatre and this big Afghan guy was also sitting nearby. All of a sudden the Afghan started talking about 'those tiny bullets the Americans are using'. According to this guy, he can himself take two or three of them without any trouble. Good luck to those supporting 5.56.

The reason why America does something can be very different to what you think. For example, American forces have a large number of females and they want females to be able to function. For the Americans, it made perfect sense to have a smaller, accurate round so they can rely on pumping multiple bullets quickly. Unfortunately, Afghanistan made that thinking obsolete. Don't blindly start following others, use your own brains. We have men in our army how have iron grips. The AK-47 and G-3 are naturally suited to them. We have a long history of training with these calibers. Why do we need to change?

 

[Zarvan]

Why do you think Germany wouldn't sell small arms to our military? If we can't afford them isn't their problem. I think H&K new LMG was also available to all potential global consumers. We may have replaced or complemented our bulky MG-3s with them if we wanted to.

Germany even refused to sell weapons to India. And trust me India can afford them. We can also afford them. We invited every one. They themselves chose not to come.

So this incident happened in a Karachi hospital. Someone's security guard was standing outside the operation theatre and this big Afghan guy was also sitting nearby. All of a sudden the Afghan started talking about 'those tiny bullets the Americans are using'. According to this guy, he can himself take two or three of them without any trouble. Good luck to those supporting 5.56.

The reason why America does something can be very different to what you think. For example, American forces have a large number of females and they want females to be able to function. For the Americans, it made perfect sense to have a smaller, accurate round so they can rely on pumping multiple bullets quickly. Unfortunately, Afghanistan made that thinking obsolete. Don't blindly start following others, use your own brains. We have men in our army how have iron grips. The AK-47 and G-3 are naturally suited to them. We have a long history of training with these calibers. Why do we need to change?

Go learn something about CQB and few other stuff. 5.56 for Police and law enforcement in cities is more then enough. What you work on is training of your Police plus giving the scopes and other stuff along with establishing special forces unit and helicopters and other stuff.

 

[CriticalThought]

Germany even refused to sell weapons to India. And trust me India can afford them. We can also afford them. We invited every one. They themselves chose not to come.

Go learn something about CQB and few other stuff. 5.56 for Police and law enforcement in cities is more then enough. What you work on is training of your Police plus giving the scopes and other stuff along with establishing special forces unit and helicopters and other stuff.

Please don't tell me to go learn anything, you aren't in a position to do so. For CQB, our LEAs already have specialized units with specialized weapons. In Karachi, putting 5.56 in the hands of policemen is like a death sentence when MQM goons have AK-47s in their hands. Anyway, we are discussing the army here, why are you going off topic by bringing in the police?

 

[Zarvan]

Please don't tell me to go learn anything, you aren't in a position to do so. For CQB, our LEAs already have specialized units with specialized weapons. In Karachi, putting 5.56 in the hands of policemen is like a death sentence when MQM goons have AK-47s in their hands. Anyway, we are discussing the army here, why are you going off topic by brining in the police?

@PanzerKiel This is what we deal with here.

No it's not a death sentence. A Policeman with 5.56 caliber can do a great job. It's 5.56 caliber assault rifle not a 9 MM h and gun. For love of GOD you seriously need to go and learn stuff.

 

[CriticalThought]

@PanzerKiel This is what we deal with here.

No it's not a death sentence. A Policeman with 5.56 caliber can do a great job. It's 5.56 caliber assault rifle not a 9 MM h and gun. For love of GOD you seriously need to go and learn stuff.

Don't waste bandwidth on the 5.56 vs 7.62x39 debate. Only sore losers do that. And don't try to fix what ain't broke either. Only idiots do that.

 

[Raja Porus]

Germany even refused to sell weapons to India. And trust me India can afford them. We can also afford them. We invited every one. They themselves chose not to come.

Go learn something about CQB and few other stuff. 5.56 for Police and law enforcement in cities is more then enough. What you work on is training of your Police plus giving the scopes and other stuff along with establishing special forces unit and helicopters and other stuff.

Dear the days of intense COIN ops are over and if our men were able to do that with the G3s and 7.62 then there is no need to change the calibre now when India is our nemesis again.
Also in the video of the BLA attack on the FC check post, one can see that there is almost no cover for the attackers and the G3(or any other 7.62) with its long range,huge stopping power, low ammo consumption and accuracy would have been enough to hold the terrorists at bay provided the attackers had been detected earlier.
As far as CQB is concerned regular PA will not be doing it anymore with LCBs in each corps, FC and police having there own SF and SSG also available on hand

 

[Bossman]

Why do you think Germany wouldn't sell small arms to our military? If we can't afford them isn't their problem. I think H&K new LMG was also available to all potential global consumers. We may have replaced or complemented our bulky MG-3s with them if we wanted to.

German legislation

 

[TigerOfMysore]

So this incident happened in a Karachi hospital. Someone's security guard was standing outside the operation theatre and this big Afghan guy was also sitting nearby. All of a sudden the Afghan started talking about 'those tiny bullets the Americans are using'. According to this guy, he can himself take two or three of them without any trouble. Good luck to those supporting 5.56.

The reason why America does something can be very different to what you think. For example, American forces have a large number of females and they want females to be able to function. For the Americans, it made perfect sense to have a smaller, accurate round so they can rely on pumping multiple bullets quickly. Unfortunately, Afghanistan made that thinking obsolete. Don't blindly start following others, use your own brains. We have men in our army how have iron grips. The AK-47 and G-3 are naturally suited to them. We have a long history of training with these calibers. Why do we need to change?

My dear anyone who says they can take a couple of 5.56 rounds and survive has never shot or seen damage from a 5.56. It is a devastating round. Also please remember there is more to a round's efficacy than just its caliber. There is also velocity. Finally range also factors as does arching and tumbling once on target (not to mention personal armor penetration/protection at different ranges comes into play as well). So please avoid making this argument. Ballistics are complex.

Also the 5.56 round was not a function of increase in female soldiers in the US Army. The primary purpose of this round which is called the Nato spec (5.56Nato), was meant for a few reasons:

1) Lighter rounds allowing for greater number that can be carried by a solider
2) Goal of round was to critically injure soldiers rather than kill (instantly), so one injured soldier would require a min of 2-3 to take care of them. This would tie up more soldiers in caring for the injured soldier than be actively engaged in battle.

The above allowed for building some balance to the size differential in number of soldiers between the Eastern and Western block.

Hope this gives you a bit of perspective on why the Nato Spec was chosen - it was not because more women were being recruited. This decision was made well before that shift in recruitment.

I think the above has been discussed at detail so I am not adding much to this discourse.
What is important to discuss on this thread is why PA has not finalized a rifle. G3s are in a bad state. G3s issued to the field are not the pristine ones one gets to see at IDEAS. They are weathered, beaten down and often run through field issues. Also G3s have a massive recoil, and putting accurate high rate of fire at distances is very difficult.

PA needs to close the loop on their NGIW.

 

[CriticalThought]

My dear anyone who says they can take a couple of 5.56 rounds and survive has never shot or seen damage from a 5.56. It is a devastating round. Also please remember there is more to a round's efficacy than just its caliber. There is also velocity. Finally range also factors as does arching and tumbling once on target (not to mention personal armor penetration/protection at different ranges comes into play as well). So please avoid making this argument. Ballistics are complex.

Also the 5.56 round was not a function of increase in female soldiers in the US Army. The primary purpose of this round which is called the Nato spec (5.56Nato), was meant for a few reasons:

1) Lighter rounds allowing for greater number that can be carried by a solider
2) Goal of round was to critically injure soldiers rather than kill (instantly), so one injured soldier would require a min of 2-3 to take care of them. This would tie up more soldiers in caring for the injured soldier than be actively engaged in battle.

The above allowed for building some balance to the size differential in number of soldiers between the Eastern and Western block.

Hope this gives you a bit of perspective on why the Nato Spec was chosen - it was not because more women were being recruited. This decision was made well before that shift in recruitment.

I think the above has been discussed at detail so I am not adding much to this discourse.
What is important to discuss on this thread is why PA has not finalized a rifle. G3s are in a bad state. G3s issued to the field are not the pristine ones one gets to see at IDEAS. They are weathered, beaten down and often run through field issues. Also G3s have a massive recoil, and putting accurate high rate of fire at distances is very difficult.

PA needs to close the loop on their NGIW.

I know the publicized arguments in favor of 5.56. And I was asking people to look beyond the obvious. Blindly accepting reasons given by others leaves us vulnerable. The Afghan guy might have been exaggerating, but why is the internet full of problems with 5.56? Take a look here as an example

The Small Arms Calibre Debate

In an era of ‘shock and awe’ warfare where a deadly cocktail of sophisticated combat aircraft and smart munitions can deliver unprecedented destructive firepower, any debate about military small ar…

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

2. Inconsistent lethality. There have been instances where enemy combatants have not been neutralised by 5.56 mm bullets, sometimes despite receiving multiple hits. This has happened at longer ranges, but also, surprisingly, at shorter ranges.

Just type 'Problems of 5.56 in Afghanistan' and a whole slew of pages comes up. This is well known to anyone who has been keeping tabs on the situation, which is why it is so funny that people are trying to educate me.

I would love it if POF can solve the problems with G3. I want the best for our troops. But that doesn't mean we need to move to a lower calibre.

 

[Metal 0-1]

I know the publicized arguments in favor of 5.56. And I was asking people to look beyond the obvious. Blindly accepting reasons given by others leaves us vulnerable. The Afghan guy might have been exaggerating, but why is the internet full of problems with 5.56? Take a look here as an example

The Small Arms Calibre Debate

In an era of ‘shock and awe’ warfare where a deadly cocktail of sophisticated combat aircraft and smart munitions can deliver unprecedented destructive firepower, any debate about military small ar…

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

Just type 'Problems of 5.56 in Afghanistan' and a whole slew of pages comes up. This is well known to anyone who has been keeping tabs on the situation, which is why it is so funny that people are trying to educate me.

I would love it if POF can solve the problems with G3. I want the best for our troops. But that doesn't mean we need to move to a lower calibre.

If you are high on adrenaline couple of AK rounds will not do anything.


There are stories guys getting shot and never realising that they got shot because they are high on adrenaline.

Military teaches you 2 in the chest 1 in the head. In reality it's shoot them until they stop breathing.


Same for AK rounds.

7.26x39 rounds are only devastating 300-400 meters. After that they loose energy drastically.

5.56 on the other hand is effective from medium to long ranges.
5.56 produce tumbling as soon as it enters body.

 

[CriticalThought]

If you are high on adrenaline couple of AK rounds will not do anything.


There are stories guys getting shot and never realising that they got shot because they are high on adrenaline.

Military teaches you 2 in the chest 1 in the head. In reality it's shoot them until they stop breathing.


Same for AK rounds.

7.26x39 rounds are only devastating 300-400 meters. After that they loose energy drastically.

5.56 on the other hand is effective from medium to long ranges.
5.56 produce tumbling as soon as it enters body.

You'll have to show me data on the efficacy of 5.56 in medium to long range.

The fragmentation is a result of type of material used. You can achieve the same with x39 by using the right material.

 

[Raja Porus]

I remember manstein once quoted an incident when his fellow SSG officer, in a COIN op shot at the terrorists with 5.56. Thinking all the terrorists have been neutralised they moved closer. Suddenly one of the tangos, who had been shot multiple times picked up an AK. The officer and the terrorist fired at each other at the same time,the officer lost his eye amd the terrorist his eye...
Also we must remember that the issue is of the gun(G3) and not of the bullet.

 

[Metal 0-1]

I remember manstein once quoted an incident when his fellow SSG officer, in a COIN op shot at the terrorists with 5.56. Thinking all the terrorists have been neutralised they moved closer. Suddenly one of the tangos, who had been shot multiple times picked up an AK. The officer and the terrorist fired at each other at the same time,the officer lost his eye amd the terrorist his eye...
Also we must remember that the issue is of the gun(G3) and not of the bullet.

Shoot them till they stop breathing. It's not two in the chest on in the head.

 

[Baloch Pakistani]

If you are high on adrenaline couple of AK rounds will not do anything.


There are stories guys getting shot and never realising that they got shot because they are high on adrenaline.

Military teaches you 2 in the chest 1 in the head. In reality it's shoot them until they stop breathing.


Same for AK rounds.

7.26x39 rounds are only devastating 300-400 meters. After that they loose energy drastically.

5.56 on the other hand is effective from medium to long ranges.
5.56 produce tumbling as soon as it enters body.

A little off topic but Mk262 Mod1 is one of the most devastating rounds available for 5.56mm. Greentip is notorious for its lack of tumbling effect and zips through its target. There are many comparison videos available of xm193 vs greentip vs mk262 mod1. Even the older xm193 performs better than the greentip. I tried to find mk262 in Pakistan but no luck so far.

 

[bananarepublic]

If you are high on adrenaline couple of AK rounds will not do anything.


There are stories guys getting shot and never realising that they got shot because they are high on adrenaline.

Military teaches you 2 in the chest 1 in the head. In reality it's shoot them until they stop breathing.


Same for AK rounds.

7.26x39 rounds are only devastating 300-400 meters. After that they loose energy drastically.

5.56 on the other hand is effective from medium to long ranges.
5.56 produce tumbling as soon as it enters body.

5.56 has a much harder time penning modren armour.
Plus if you are under any cover 5.56 does a lousy job.
7.62×39 gives you an advantage against enemies under cover or wearing body armor.

1) Lighter rounds allowing for greater number that can be carried by a solider
2) Goal of round was to critically injure soldiers rather than kill (instantly), so one injured soldier would require a min of 2-3 to take care of them. This would tie up more soldiers in caring for the injured soldier than be actively engaged in battle.

Think of it like this, if there is a conflict between Pakistan-India or Pakistan-Afghanistan. Soliders would be traveling in M113 or motor transport. You don't have much of a logistics problem because from the factory to the Frontline its a few hundred kilometers.
You are fighter an enemy in vast desserts and plains in the east, while at far ranges in the mountains and hills of west.
Wouldn't you want a soldier to have a gun that could shoot at further distances albeit heavier. They could be resupplied easily and redeployed using M113 or any transport.