Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[PAR 5]

Even G3s are "European" ... Chinese aren't even participating ... and it doesn't depend on price .. Had price been a factor most of these rifles wouldn't even have been selected for the tender ... And Pak would have continued with the Chinese Type series instead!

As for maintenance.. Even G3 requires maintenance .. And so does every other rifle .. Apart from maybe a Kalashnikov ! And that isn't an issue when you are choosing a rifle to equip almost a million men professional military... And producing it under license..


That's all nonsense .. F2000 still remains PAFs standard rifle .. While the army and navy guys have moved to M series and ARs.



And I doubt the modified M77 being pushed by Serbs will be selected either... It kicks like a mule... Recently fired it (belonging to a friend)... Solid rifle but a pain in the arse.

Thanks for your personal view. Instead of arguing (that I am not very fond of especially with online goofs) let us wait until such time a rifle is chosen.

 

[ConcealCarry]

You are talking to the person who wants minimum 3 squadrons of every type of plane for every arm of military. People put too much emphasis on the gun and forget that it's the bullet which kills. Experts argue that they would prefer a $100 gun with a $500 scope rather than a $500 gun with a $ 100 scope. If we can afford, we should get (preferably make in house) lighter, reliable and accurate guns for the special and strike forces but it does not make sense to spend 3 grand on a single unit, product of multiplication grows quite large quite quickly and difficult to digest.

Hi,

Learn--not to mix INEXPENSIVE with CHEAP---. Inexpensive does not mean that it is not a quality product.

You need to understand that for the SCAR you are paying NOT FOR THE RIFLE but for the lifestyle of BELGIUM---.

You are paying for the high hourly wage and the social welfare cost of that nation.

For the Zastava---you are paying for a lower cost of living of the serbians.

GDP per capita for Belgium is around $43,000 / year

GDP per capita for Serbia is around $14,000 / year

What you are talking about is the same thing the British aristocracy never understood for a long time that why the american aristocracy were happy with their Remington---Savage and Winchester hunting rifles rather than the expensive Churchill or the Purdeys or other likewise---.

 

[PAR 5]

You are talking to the person who wants minimum 3 squadrons of every type of plane for every arm of military. People put too much emphasis on the gun and forget that it's the bullet which kills. Experts argue that they would prefer a $100 gun with a $500 scope rather than a $500 gun with a $ 100 scope. If we can afford, we should get (preferably make in house) lighter, reliable and accurate guns for the special and strike forces but it does not make sense to spend 3 grand on a single unit, product of multiplication grows quite large quite quickly and difficult to digest.

The saddest part of this entire exercise is the failure of POF to come up with a locally made rifle for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Without having unity in a service rifle brand our armed forces have ended up with a Hodge Podge of all kinds of rifles.

 

[Zarvan]

I have my doubts that any of the European rifles will be purchased. High price and maintenance are turn-offs for our users (case and point are the FN F2000 and P90 purchased by the PAF in early 2000s, those rifles are now lying in storage for emergency use only). So the main competition may be between Russian AK and the Chinese. Lets hope they decide soon and before the current Army Chief leaves

FN-2000 and P-90 are being extensively used by SSW in Tribal areas. Now as for Gun pretty much all contenders are European. I know Pakistan Army they would have not invited FN SCAR or Beretta ARX-200 if cost would have been a issue. Finally summer trials are going and hope we would hear about the winner soon.

You are talking to the person who wants minimum 3 squadrons of every type of plane for every arm of military. People put too much emphasis on the gun and forget that it's the bullet which kills. Experts argue that they would prefer a $100 gun with a $500 scope rather than a $500 gun with a $ 100 scope. If we can afford, we should get (preferably make in house) lighter, reliable and accurate guns for the special and strike forces but it does not make sense to spend 3 grand on a single unit, product of multiplication grows quite large quite quickly and difficult to digest.

Sir for your information 14 companies wanted to come. Still we went only for one of the most expensive ones. We didn't invited our brother Turkey with its latest Gun. As for three squadrons. Sir we are looking for a third 4.5th Generation platform and soon you would hear about it on media.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Thanks for your personal view. Instead of arguing (that I am not very fond of especially with online goofs) let us wait until such time a rifle is chosen.

Neither am I .. But in your case .. Had to oblige.

 

[Zarvan]

The saddest part of this entire exercise is the failure of POF to come up with a locally made rifle for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Without having unity in a service rifle brand our armed forces have ended up with a Hodge Podge of all kinds of rifles.

Well it's but even with lot money it's hard to come up with something like FN SCAR.

 

[muhammadali233]

The saddest part of this entire exercise is the failure of POF to come up with a locally made rifle for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Without having unity in a service rifle brand our armed forces have ended up with a Hodge Podge of all kinds of rifles.

Failure?Do you even know how much they are doing just to sustain the need of ammo for the troops in war?They have come up with 5 or 6 decent rifles most popular among them is POF eye a corner shot weapon. M-4 carbine or FN Scar or G-36 these are world class weapons to make these kind of stuff you need sufficient budget and expertise.Pak army doesn't want to end up having something similar to INSAS rifle in pursuit of having a Indigenous weapon;Pak armed forces are not taking a risk so off the shelf is the best option.

 

[niaz]

The saddest part of this entire exercise is the failure of POF to come up with a locally made rifle for the Pakistan Armed Forces. Without having unity in a service rifle brand our armed forces have ended up with a Hodge Podge of all kinds of rifles.

Think we expect too much from the POF. POF neither has the funds nor the manpower for the R&D to ascertain which bore size of the rifle and / or of the bullet is best suited for the Pak Army. Besides, when there are so many armament manufactures already doing this work; it is far less onerous to select from one of the rifles available off the shelf which best suits your requirement. That is why so many countries are producing their assault rifles under license. Additionally, even in the case of indigenously designed rifles, bullet size is standardised to either NATO or Russian ammunition.

Ideally an army rifle should be simple to manufacture, to maintain and to train the new recruits. It must also be accurate, jam proof and durable. In other words a cheap, rugged reliable fire arm is needed.

AK-47 with all of these qualities has been available for 70 years and it has been employed successfully in Pakistan as well as in the world by terrorists & soldiers alike. POF’s G-3 has also provided 50 years of service to Pak Army soldiers without too many complaints. Therefore dilemma of Pak Army planners must be that unless the new rifle is a substantial improvement over G3 & AK-47, expense of almost $500-million for the 500,000 units is not justifiable. I can therefore understand why it is taking so long.

Benefits of 5.5mm over 7.62 are debatable in the subcontinent scenario. I came across news that after experience in Afghanistan; British SAS were considering switching back to 7.62 mm calibre. I would therefore prefer to stick with the 7.62mm.

Both the G-3 & AK-47 weight about 4.7 KG when fully loaded. This is about one Kilogram more than the US M-16. Based on Cost versus Benefit considerations and nothing else; instead of inducting a brand new rifle; I would rather work on reducing weight of the G3 & of AK-47 thru using more lightweight materials and improving the balance to minimise the recoil kick. When the best is already available, must we change for the sake of the change or simply because India or some other country is doing it?

I never had the chance of using Bullpup rifle or the shotgun; however I came across someone having an American pump action Bullpup shot gun in the Skeet shooting club that I belong. No doubt it is compact but I was told that it is less accurate and has bigger kick than the 28 inch shot gun that I have. If the same applies to the rifle, than Iranian version of Bullpup G-3 is not suitable for Pakistan.

 

[madmusti]

 

[Khafee]

FN-2000 and P-90 are being extensively used by SSW in Tribal areas. Now as for Gun pretty much all contenders are European. I know Pakistan Army they would have not invited FN SCAR or Beretta ARX-200 if cost would have been a issue. Finally summer trials are going and hope we would hear about the winner soon.


Sir for your information 14 companies wanted to come. Still we went only for one of the most expensive ones. We didn't invited our brother Turkey with its latest Gun. As for three squadrons. Sir we are looking for a third 4.5th Generation platform and soon you would hear about it on media.

Bro are you sure about the P90?

 

[PAR 5]

Think we expect too much from the POF. POF neither has the funds nor the manpower for the R&D to ascertain which bore size of the rifle and / or of the bullet is best suited for the Pak Army. Besides, when there are so many armament manufactures already doing this work; it is far less onerous to select from one of the rifles available off the shelf which best suits your requirement. That is why so many countries are producing their assault rifles under license. Additionally, even in the case of indigenously designed rifles, bullet size is standardised to either NATO or Russian ammunition.

Ideally an army rifle should be simple to manufacture, to maintain and to train the new recruits. It must also be accurate, jam proof and durable. In other words a cheap, rugged reliable fire arm is needed.

AK-47 with all of these qualities has been available for 70 years and it has been employed successfully in Pakistan as well as in the world by terrorists & soldiers alike. POF’s G-3 has also provided 50 years of service to Pak Army soldiers without too many complaints. Therefore dilemma of Pak Army planners must be that unless the new rifle is a substantial improvement over G3 & AK-47, expense of almost $500-million for the 500,000 units is not justifiable. I can therefore understand why it is taking so long.

Benefits of 5.5mm over 7.62 are debatable in the subcontinent scenario. I came across news that after experience in Afghanistan; British SAS were considering switching back to 7.62 mm calibre. I would therefore prefer to stick with the 7.62mm.

Both the G-3 & AK-47 weight about 4.7 KG when fully loaded. This is about one Kilogram more than the US M-16. Based on Cost versus Benefit considerations and nothing else; instead of inducting a brand new rifle; I would rather work on reducing weight of the G3 & of AK-47 thru using more lightweight materials and improving the balance to minimise the recoil kick. When the best is already available, must we change for the sake of the change or simply because India or some other country is doing it?

I never had the chance of using Bullpup rifle or the shotgun; however I came across someone having an American pump action Bullpup shot gun in the Skeet shooting club that I belong. No doubt it is compact but I was told that it is less accurate and has bigger kick than the 28 inch shot gun that I have. If the same applies to the rifle, than Iranian version of Bullpup G-3 is not suitable for Pakistan.

Your first two sentences pretty much define what POF is doing. We are stuck to the whims of foreign manufacturers for as long as POF fails at the task of designing and developing a locally made rifle.

 

[Zarvan]

Bro are you sure about the P90?

Sorry PS-90 and yes I am sure about it.

@balixd Where are you Sir ? I am getting crazy here !!!! Now some friends are telling that HK-417 has also joined the competition and some are also reporting MPT-76 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER

 

[That Guy]

I have my doubts that any of the European rifles will be purchased. High price and maintenance are turn-offs for our users (case and point are the FN F2000 and P90 purchased by the PAF in early 2000s, those rifles are now lying in storage for emergency use only). So the main competition may be between Russian AK and the Chinese. Lets hope they decide soon and before the current Army Chief leaves

Pakistan is getting rid of it's AKs, thus the multi-caliber competition, and the Chinese aren't even in the competition.

Your comparison is flawed. The FN F2000 and P90s were bought off the shelf, while this competition is for local manufacturing and ToT, which would significantly lower the price of the rifles. Even then, the Bren is a pretty cheap rifle compared to most of the rifles in the competition, except maybe the AK being offered, and the Zastava M21.

The decision will probably be made before Gen Shareef retires, as it would be consolidate his legacy of pushing PA towards modernization.

Likely, the SCAR will win the competition, but I would rather the ARX wins.

 

[Amaa'n]

Sorry PS-90 and yes I am sure about it.

@balixd Where are you Sir ? I am getting crazy here !!!! Now some friends are telling that HK-417 has also joined the competition and some are also reporting MPT-76 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER

i don't know about such development, but I have not seen any evidence to support this, list is still unchanged ----- unless your friends can provide any evidence on this

 

[Zarvan]

i don't know about such development, but I have not seen any evidence to support this, list is still unchanged ----- unless your friends can provide any evidence on this

Thanks for the information that is what I am saying to them