Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[CriticalThought]

What’s being stopped? The discussion was actually about possible solutions to resolve technical issues being phased on local products barrel.

The discussion was about the viability of locally designed rifles, and your solution was to import some machines and barrels. A naive, knee jerk solution to a complex problem. If the solution you propose never gets adopted, there are only three conclusions: the top leadership is traitorous, or your solution is bogus, or the leaders are traitors and your solution is bogus. Go read my posts again, it might help.

On the other hand, if your solution does get adopted, I am still uncertain we would see a wide roll out of indigenous rifles, for all the reasons listed in m previous posts. Go make it happen, then come back and discuss.

 

[Bilal.]

The discussion was about the viability of locally designed rifles, and your solution was to import some machines and barrels. A naive, knee jerk solution to a complex problem. If the solution you propose never gets adopted, there are only three conclusions: the top leadership is traitorous, or your solution is bogus, or the leaders are traitors and your solution is bogus. Go read my posts again, it might help.

On the other hand, if your solution does get adopted, I am still uncertain we would see a wide roll out of indigenous rifles, for all the reasons listed in m previous posts. Go make it happen, then come back and discuss.

Ok

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The spanner in the works are they key components that you need to import. Engine being one of them. The right grade of steel alloys being another. Electronics is another. The world doesn't want you to become a military power. Why will the world give you an easy and reliable supply of key components at cheap prices? The world has wares of its own to peddle. Why wouldn't they try their very best to engineer a situation where you are forced to buy from them?

That war on terror was orchestrated by America. The training, the tactics, even the camouflage uniforms reek of America. You were supplying the manpower. Even if your generals orchestrated attacks, their planning is reminiscent of American tactics in Afghanistan. So don't discount the effect of FATF blacklist on your indigenous programs.


If you want to be non-serious, I can't help you. But for anyone interested, I have laid down the serious and realistic problems that are a hurdle to our indigenous efforts.

Yep...but if the world now also includes China, then it means we have to vastly review Pakistan's place and its goals. I am 100% aligned with 'total independence', but as you said, our leaders (and to an extent even people) aren't.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yep...but if the world now also includes China, then it means we have to vastly review Pakistan's place and its goals. I am 100% aligned with 'total independence', but as you said, our leaders (and to an extent even people) aren't.

It's a sensitive topic, but suffice to say, if a trustworthy leadership were sitting on the top, we wouldn't need to be discussing sensitive topics here. But you can understand how my reasoning applies to the world in general.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Possibly, but I suspect the COIN/CT ops during that time took a lot of the armed forces' fiscal resources.

In 2016, it had seemed like we fell into a 'peace dividend' (funds freeing up) and, in turn, initiated the Haider MBT (i.e., VT4), attack helicopter (T129), additional Erieye AEW&C, new assault rifle, and naval programs.

The issue is why go for the VT4 when we already had the al-Khalid? Why not force HIT to once again manufacture the al-Khalid at full capacity (50 tanks per year)? Though modest, the al-Khalid still draws on the local economy in various ways (albeit mostly with labour and some parts), but we could've expanded that with targeted R&D for more sub-systems and components.

Yes, exporting helps build a direct ROI for the facility, but the macroeconomic ROI is the savings you accrue in hard-currency by reducing imports. Moreover, you create a stimulus for the domestic economy, incentivize R&D in the private sector (i.e., growth and investment), and other positive factors. For example, Pakistan may have been able to indigenize more of the al-Khalid's key inputs, and while it can't sell the whole tank, it might have an easier time exporting those inputs to other places.

Our planners didn't think about this because they aren't economists, they're fauj -- there's a limit to what they know, and we're seeing it. Overall, I'm fine with the Army owning HIT, POF, et. al, but they need to delegate the day-to-day management to actual professionals in engineering, finance, corporate management, etc. Moreover, they need to rope in economic and trade experts in their negotiations for foreign arms so that we can drill offsets, ToT, etc, at a more effective level.

I like Turkey's model of running TAI. Their equivalent to Fauji Foundation basically serves as the Board of Directors, but the entire corporate management aspect is run by professionals in those fields. Their equivalent to the MoDP -- i.e., the SSB -- is also run by an engineer / scientist, and exerts a lot of authority over the MS-SOEs to ensure synergy, horizontal IP sharing, etc.

so who told u that HIT is not making Al khalid ?
HIT is working at full tilt and is equipping an armor unit a year. It been upgraded n retooled.
the problem is not that HIT is not working at full tilt but the problem stems from the fact that PA has to replace tanks in their thousands NOW. even if HIT were to continue to work at full capacity it will take it more than a couple of decades to replace them all.
and time is one luxury that Pakistan does not have, especially when it is staring down a barrel.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

so who told u that HIT is not making Al khalid ?
HIT is working at full tilt and is equipping an armor unit a year. It been upgraded n retooled.
the problem is not that HIT is not working at full tilt but the problem stems from the fact that PA has to replace tanks in their thousands NOW. even if HIT were to continue to work at full capacity it will take it more than a couple of decades to replace them all.
and time is one luxury that Pakistan does not have, especially when it is staring down a barrel.

HIT said it isn't working at full capacity.

It can roll-out 50 al-Khalid MBTs a year, yet it only produces around 20-25 per year (see every MoDP report in the last 4-5 years).

The committee was told that HIT has a capacity to produce 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to budgetary constraints.

Ministry of defence production: Senate body proposes direct access to budgetary allocations – Business Recorder

fp.brecorder.com

Finally, even if it reached full capacity, why not expand the capacity through the private sector? The private sector will invest to set-up the capacity if the Army commits to spend Pakistan's money on Pakistan (instead of China or Turkey or wherever else).

 

[Reichmarshal]

HIT itself said it isn't working at full capacity. It can roll-out 50 al-Khalid MBTs a year, yet it only produces around 20-25 per year (see every MoDP report in the last 4-5 years).

The committee was told that HIT has a capacity to produce 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to budgetary constraints.

Ministry of defence production: Senate body proposes direct access to budgetary allocations – Business Recorder

fp.brecorder.com

wt your quoting is from old sources.
wt i am telling u is NOW.....wt ur telling us more than a few years old.

 

[GriffinsRule]

wt your quoting is from old sources.
wt i am telling u is NOW.....wt ur telling us more than a few years old.

Well then its the HITs fault at not upgrading a decade ago. The army is still at fault for piss poor planning

 

[iLION12345_1]

HIT said it isn't working at full capacity.

It can roll-out 50 al-Khalid MBTs a year, yet it only produces around 20-25 per year (see every MoDP report in the last 4-5 years).

The committee was told that HIT has a capacity to produce 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to budgetary constraints.

Ministry of defence production: Senate body proposes direct access to budgetary allocations – Business Recorder

fp.brecorder.com

Finally, even if it reached full capacity, why not expand the capacity through the private sector? The private sector will invest to set-up the capacity if the Army commits to spend Pakistan's money on Pakistan (instead of China or Turkey or wherever else).

That report is accurate, but only for the years until 2018-19. The budget constraints were due to the war on terror, especially Zarb-e-azb, in fact the entire naval acquisition budget was being given to the army and airforce to help with the war on terror effort. Which is why the navy got left so far behind.
Since 2019 HIT has been at full production capacity due to the war on terror coming to an end, Still not producing 50 tanks a year, though it has that capability, but it is certainly making a lot more than before and being retooled + upgraded with robotic production arms etc.
I visited it again just last year

I do however agree with the privatization part, they really need to let private parties join into HIT to help it expand rapidly. The same applies with the rest of the Pakistani defence industry.

Well then its the HITs fault at not upgrading a decade ago. The army is still at fault for piss poor planning

The war on terror started around 2003 for us and since 2007 money was pretty short, all the way until 2018, there were more serious places to put that money into than upgrading HIT.

This is also the reason the AK-1 induction came so Late despite the tank being finished years prior, because the AK project and production was very slow from 2009-14 and nearly halted from 14-16 for the same reasons as above. Ideally the AK-1 would have been inducted 3-4 years earlier and we would be nearing AK-2 now. But at least things are back on track now with AK-1 under full production and AK-2 under development.

The head of the AK-1 and 2 projects was my classmates father, I got to ask him a few questions about it, which is how I know some of the stuff above.
imo All things considered, AK as a long term project has been handled decently well.

Tying that in to the actual topic: We just need private companies to be able to jump in, that would help with small arms design too. It’s impossible for a country of 200 million to not have people who can’t design a decent firearm, when countries with populations smaller than Lahore can do the same.

 

[bananarepublic]

@Zarvan while I was traveling around Gilgit city today I saw GB scouts with brand new AKs all back similar to the ones POF had displayed in the past.
Only difference I was able to see in a glance was the stock, it had similar piped stock to this.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Well then its the HITs fault at not upgrading a decade ago. The army is still at fault for piss poor planning

Had you come forward n funded the retooling of HIT.
I am sure it would have been done a decade ago

 

[bananarepublic]

https://www.facebook.com/125086242616/posts/10157866122717617

Spot the gun

 

[Reichmarshal]

Tying that in to the actual topic: We just need private companies to be able to jump in, that would help with small arms design too. It’s impossible for a country of 200 million to not have people who can’t design a decent firearm, when countries with populations smaller than Lahore can do the same.

The state of our private enterprise is not somthing to write home about.
HIT and the rest of the defence military complex are all for indeginazation and for local companies to flourish and give alot of leeway to this effect.
eg HIT wanted our local companies to make the rubber around the bogey wheels which is the most basic component of a tank.
But unfortunatly our local industry failed to even make this very reduamentry component.

Having said that all is not doom and gloom as a friend of mine an electrical engineer from eme college is making components for Boeing and he is not a lone story but countless people are making waves on an individual basis.
Wt needs to be done is to chanalise all this talent and know how.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Had you come forward n funded the retooling of HIT.
I am sure it would have been done a decade ago

Nah I'm paying taxes where I'm working already. People in Pakistan need to pay their share

 

[bhola record]

The state of our private enterprise is not somthing to write home about.
HIT and the rest of the defence military complex are all for indeginazation and for local companies to flourish and give alot of leeway to this effect.
eg HIT wanted our local companies to made the rubber around the bogey wheels which is the most basic component of a tank.
But unfortunatly our local industry failed to even make this very reduamentry component.

Having said that all is not doom and gloom as a friend of mine an electrical engineer from eme college is making components for Boeing and he is not a lone story but countless people are making waves on an individual basis.
Wt needs to be done is to chanalise all this talent and know how.

A country in which we waste thousands of rounds of bullets in wedding reception as celebration I am surprised there is not a private owned ordinance factory. I hope in upcoming years situation improves. Would love it if one of our esteemed Defense.pk members starts it.