Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Zarvan]

@Sulman Badshah Do you have any news ?

 

[Sulman Badshah]

@Sulman Badshah Do you have any news ?

no news regarding this yet ...

 

[Zarvan]

@kaonalpha Sir when we should expect to hear any news

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Waiting for news........

 

[Quwa]

A side point regarding cost, Turkey produces the MPT-76 for $1200 a unit. Pakistan going this route may yield even lower unit costs.

 

[Kompromat]

MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles.

This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics.

Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.

If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s.

@Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan

A side point regarding cost, Turkey produces the MPT-76 for $1200 a unit. Pakistan going this route may yield even lower unit costs.

 

[MilSpec]

I think it's time to move away from 7.62x51 and start adapting a 6.5 Grendel or a 6.8SPC. Given that it would be a hard transition, Maybe a Multi caliber platform is the correct solution to consolidate existing calibers. One advantage that PA must look at is Chinese platforms given that they have similar variation in geographical terrain and climate factors. Given PA is the 7th largest standing army, it is imperative to look for a economical solution without compromising on performance. Norinco might be able to provide a custom solution that will meet specific PA requirements at a fraction of the price. Lastly it's High time Pakistan developed it's own Rifle System, not copies or license production, You guys have a rich rifleman culture, and generations of exceptional gunsmithing talent. If anyone is poised to make a good rifle system it's you guys. You need to support your own rifle small arms development, in the long run the industry will be it's weight in gold.

regards.

@DESERT FIGHTER @RescueRanger BTW check out the the new AK ALFA from Klashnikov USA, its freakin B.E.A.-uitful.

MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles.

This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics.

Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.

If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s.

@Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan

 

[Kompromat]

* Changing caliber would require replacing millions of rounds in stock.
* I do not yet trust the milspec value of Chinese metallurgy in fire arms. They are catching up fast but not quite there yet.
* Things become cheaper when they are mass produced, if we produce a million SCARs over next decade+ it will make it affordable. You just can't hand over a substandard firearm to a battle hardened soldier who knows its value like his breath, you'll kill his morale. He doesn't care if he is not given a vest but a cheap gun in his hands is just a betrayal.

I think it's time to move away from 7.62x51 and start adapting a 6.5 Grendel or a 6.8SPC. Given that it would be a hard transition, Maybe a Multi caliber platform is the correct solution to consolidate existing calibers. One advantage that PA must look at is Chinese platforms given that they have similar variation in geographical terrain and climate factors. Given PA is the 7th largest standing army, it is imperative to look for a economical solution without compromising on performance. Norinco might be able to provide a custom solution that will meet specific PA requirements at a fraction of the price. Lastly it's High time Pakistan developed it's own Rifle System, not copies or license production, You guys have a rich rifleman culture, and generations of exceptional gunsmithing talent. If anyone is poised to make a good rifle system it's you guys. You need to support your own rifle small arms development, in the long run the industry will be it's weight in gold.

regards.

@DESERT FIGHTER @RescueRanger BTW check out the the new AK ALFA from Klashnikov USA, its freakin B.E.A.-uitful.

 

[Tipu7]

* Changing caliber would require replacing millions of rounds in stock.
* I do not yet trust the milspec value of Chinese metallurgy in fire arms. They are catching up fast but not quite there yet.
* Things become cheaper when they are mass produced, if we produce a million SCARs over next decade+ it will make it affordable. You just can't hand over a substandard firearm to a battle hardened soldier who knows its value like his breath, you'll kill his morale. He doesn't care if he is not given a vest but a cheap gun in his hands is just a betrayal.

How much time is needed to fully replace old rifle with new ones?
How much extra training is needed to expert New rifle?

The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.

If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame.

MPT76 offer same solutions too.
But that rifle look bit over engineered for PA terrain..... May be we will be looking forward over a simplified version of MPT76.....?
How about Ak12? Or Ak100?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

MPT-76 is far from perfect as a battle rifle given our adverse climatic requirements ranging from sub zero arctic warfare conditions in Siachen to terrifying 50+ degree heat in Thar sector and salt water area of operations in run of kuch and Arabian Sea (Since Marines also use G-3s). At $1200 the price is "ridiculous" considering that we will have to produce almost one million service rifles for strategic requirements including Army, Marines, Rangers, FC, SPD SSU and other LEAs that operate 7.62mm rifles.

This is going to be a very expensive investment for us to replace our old rifles, produce new ones and then train our soldiers to use them to battlefield effectiveness levels. Shooters who have operated a certain rifle frame develop muscle memory which makes their shooting abilities instantaneous. It would take us a long time to achieve that with a new frame with new ergonomics.

Having said that, the MPT-76 is basically a Turkish redesign of hk-417. We simply cannot compromise on the quality of the rifle if we are going to pay top dollar price for each unit when produced at POF under license from the manufacturer. We are much better off taking both MPT-76 and hk-417 off the table. The rifle that suits us the best is FN-SCAR-H which has the same caliber as the G-3 so no replacement of millions of rounds needed, it also comes with a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) variant, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) variant, a 5.56mm variant (for certain applications) as well as a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) variant, all will be developed on a SINGLE production line.

If we go for SCAR-L and H under licensed production, we can replace G-3s, SBRs as well as MP-5s and out of date DMRs in service all in one go. As a one off payment its going to cost us a lot to acquire the production license and machinery but in the long term its going to be cheaper for us to produce and train our soldiers on a single identical frame. On a side note, i think there is enough data available on the forum on this subject to put it in an article exploring the ideal replacement options for G-3 and MP-5s.

@Icarus @MilSpec @Hyperion @balixd @TaimiKhan

People think we are falling behind on funds - but the reality is we are getting excess and leftovers. 1 Million MPT-76s will cost us 1.2 billion - which is not that much for us - not to mention we can recycle or pass down our current weapons. We have to take advantage of our sudden inflation boast which put our defense budget up to 9.6 billion; so we need to replace our standard rifle by 2017-2018.

How much time is needed to fully replace old rifle with new ones?
How much extra training is needed to expert New rifle?

MPT76 offer same solutions too.
But that rifle look bit over engineered for PA terrain..... May be we will be looking forward over a simplified version of MPT76.....?
How about Ak12? Or Ak100?

It would take around a decade to fully reequip the army and weeks for training not to mention constant drills for them to get used to it.

 

[Kompromat]

MPT-76 is a Turkish variant of hk-417. Why not buy original instead of a clone? - Talking a "Battle Rifle" you just can't compromise on metallurgy.

People think we are falling behind on funds - but the reality is we are getting excess and leftovers. 1 Million MPT-76s will cost us 1.2 billion - which is not that much for us - not to mention we can recycle or pass down our current weapons. We have to take advantage of our sudden inflation boast which put our defense budget up to 9.6 billion; so we need to replace our standard rifle by 2017-2018.

It would take around a decade to fully reequip the army and weeks for training not to mention constant drills for them to get used to it.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

MPT-76 is a Turkish variant of hk-417. Why not buy original instead of a clone? - Talking a "Battle Rifle" you just can't compromise on metallurgy.

Because MPT-76 is redesigned and modified in proportion to their climate and their fighting style which is very similiar to ours.

 

[MilSpec]

* Changing caliber would require replacing millions of rounds in stock.
* I do not yet trust the milspec value of Chinese metallurgy in fire arms. They are catching up fast but not quite there yet.
* Things become cheaper when they are mass produced, if we produce a million SCARs over next decade+ it will make it affordable. You just can't hand over a substandard firearm to a battle hardened soldier who knows its value like his breath, you'll kill his morale. He doesn't care if he is not given a vest but a cheap gun in his hands is just a betrayal.

Cmon now, Chinese made Tanks are OK and not Small arms, you will be surprised to know that small arms do not need exceptional metallurgical practices, and China is as of now King of Forging and casting processes, so they do have there ducks in the row... (I find it weird defending Chinese engineering Industry, PDF makes you say stuff you would never imagine your self saying lol) . China has price point advantage, but doesn't mean poor quality or reliability, canadains have been praising that qbz rifle for quite some time now.
Forget Chinese option or SCAR, support HIT/POF and work on your design, your guys have come up with ridiculously efficient solutions in the military domain, time and again.... This would be a worthwhile venture, trust me.

 

[Zarvan]

Beretta unveils ARX 200 designated marksman rifle
Like many Western forces, the Italian military’s experiences in Afghanistan have been a driving force in the acquisition of additional longer-range firepower at the infantry platoon level. The Italian Army will be deploying the Beretta ARX 200 designated marksman rifle, chambered for 7.62 x 51 mm, in order to meet this capability requirement. The long-awaited rifle was unveiled today at the DSEI 2015exhibition.


The Beretta ARX 200 on display at DSEI 2015.

Externally, the Beretta ARX 200 draws its design cues from the ARX 160. It features a fully free-floated 16” barrel, polymer and aluminium construction, true ‘over-the-beach’ functionality, and a selective fire (semi-automatic and automatic) capability. The ARX 200 includes fully ambidextrous controls, and an ejection port issue seen in the ARX 160 design was also rectified. The ARX 200 differs in design from its predecessors, but shares some components, including the trigger mechanism. The rifle weighs 4.5 kg without its polymer 20 round magazine. Notably, the ARX 200 is stated as easily converted to 7.62 x 39 mm and 5.56 x 45 mm calibres, and can be fitted with an adapter so as to receive SR-25 type magazines. Full technical specifications are shown in the table below, and taken from Beretta’s product brochure.

An earlier Italian military document sighted by ARES stated that the ARX 200 would include a powered main (top) rail, using TWorx Ventures‘ ‘Intelligent Rail’ technology, powering the weapon’s new“Intelligent” Combat Sight (ICS)produced by Steiner-Optics¹. The Intelligent Rail system is powered by a central, removable battery pack weighing under 150 grams. The rails comply with MIL-STD-810 for various environmental stresses, including shock vibration. Intelligent Rail technology can be seen integrated into the ARX Carbine below, displayed at AUSA 2014, and a rail interface control system is also visible. Beretta’s available marketing materials for the ARX 200 at DSEI 2015 made no reference to the Intelligent Rail system, and it appeared to be absent from the rifle displayed.

Beretta ARX Carbine at AUSA 2014, with integrated TWorx Ventures Intelligent Rail system

The Steiner-Optics ICS features an adjustable reticule, laser range finder, inclinometer, and ballistic computer. According to an account by one early Italian Army user, it was “very effective”. The 6 x 40 sight is optimised for the 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge, according to Steiner, and is adjustable for windage and 120 MOA of elevation. The ICS was displayed for the first time at Enforce Tac 2015.


Steiner-Optics “Intelligent” Combat Sight (ICS) mounted on a Beretta ARX 160 displayed at Enforce Tac 2015.

According to a confidential military source, the Italian military was anticipating a Q1 2015 delivery of late-stage prototypes for final testing, and the rifles were expected to begin entering service sometime in or shortly after June 2015. While they are not yet in service, a Beretta representative at DSEI 2015 has confirmed that the final production model will be ready for the Italian military by the end of this year. The Italian military allocated 2.5 million EUR for ARX 200 rifles in 2014, with six anticipated orders of 120, 210, 210, 90, 270, and 270 rifles (total: 1,170 rifles). This Italian Ministry of Defence document discusses a purchase of 800 rifles for Italian special operations forces (SOF) in support of Progetto Soldato Futuro(SOFUTRA), the Italian Army’s future soldier programme.

The rifles will be issued on a one-per-section basis, and employed by an ‘expert marksman’ (tiratore esperto), with expected engagement ranges of 600 to 800 metres. It will remain fully compatible with components of SOFUTRA, including the recently-adopted GLX 160 grenade launcher and associated Grenade Launcher Fire Control System (GLFCS).

Beretta ARX 200 Technical Specifications



Calibre 7.62 x 51 mm
(configurable for 5.56 x 45 mm & 7.62 x 39 mm)
Locking system Locked breech – Rotating bolt
Operating system Gas piston
Barrel and rifling 16” free-floated barrel
4 right-handed grooves at a pitch of 279mm (11”)
Magazine 20 round, polymer
Adapter available for SR-25 type magazines
Length Extended stock: 1000 mm
Collapsed stock: 890 mm
Folded stock: 730 mm
Weight (without magazine) 4.5 kg


Beretta ARX 200 at DSEI 2015






ARX 200 photos copyright of ARES. ARX Carbine photo from here. Steiner-Optics ICS image from here. Technical specifications and side profile image of ARX 200 taken from Beretta’s promotional material (image has been adjusted for clarity).

1 – Originally designated the ‘Innovative Combat Sight’, and referred to in Beretta’s ARX 200 pamphlet at DSEI as the ‘Innovative Steiner Combat Sight’

@Horus @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Beretta unveils ARX 200 designated marksman rifle
Like many Western forces, the Italian military’s experiences in Afghanistan have been a driving force in the acquisition of additional longer-range firepower at the infantry platoon level. The Italian Army will be deploying the Beretta ARX 200 designated marksman rifle, chambered for 7.62 x 51 mm, in order to meet this capability requirement. The long-awaited rifle was unveiled today at the DSEI 2015exhibition.


The Beretta ARX 200 on display at DSEI 2015.

Externally, the Beretta ARX 200 draws its design cues from the ARX 160. It features a fully free-floated 16” barrel, polymer and aluminium construction, true ‘over-the-beach’ functionality, and a selective fire (semi-automatic and automatic) capability. The ARX 200 includes fully ambidextrous controls, and an ejection port issue seen in the ARX 160 design was also rectified. The ARX 200 differs in design from its predecessors, but shares some components, including the trigger mechanism. The rifle weighs 4.5 kg without its polymer 20 round magazine. Notably, the ARX 200 is stated as easily converted to 7.62 x 39 mm and 5.56 x 45 mm calibres, and can be fitted with an adapter so as to receive SR-25 type magazines. Full technical specifications are shown in the table below, and taken from Beretta’s product brochure.

An earlier Italian military document sighted by ARES stated that the ARX 200 would include a powered main (top) rail, using TWorx Ventures‘ ‘Intelligent Rail’ technology, powering the weapon’s new“Intelligent” Combat Sight (ICS)produced by Steiner-Optics¹. The Intelligent Rail system is powered by a central, removable battery pack weighing under 150 grams. The rails comply with MIL-STD-810 for various environmental stresses, including shock vibration. Intelligent Rail technology can be seen integrated into the ARX Carbine below, displayed at AUSA 2014, and a rail interface control system is also visible. Beretta’s available marketing materials for the ARX 200 at DSEI 2015 made no reference to the Intelligent Rail system, and it appeared to be absent from the rifle displayed.

Beretta ARX Carbine at AUSA 2014, with integrated TWorx Ventures Intelligent Rail system

The Steiner-Optics ICS features an adjustable reticule, laser range finder, inclinometer, and ballistic computer. According to an account by one early Italian Army user, it was “very effective”. The 6 x 40 sight is optimised for the 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge, according to Steiner, and is adjustable for windage and 120 MOA of elevation. The ICS was displayed for the first time at Enforce Tac 2015.


Steiner-Optics “Intelligent” Combat Sight (ICS) mounted on a Beretta ARX 160 displayed at Enforce Tac 2015.

According to a confidential military source, the Italian military was anticipating a Q1 2015 delivery of late-stage prototypes for final testing, and the rifles were expected to begin entering service sometime in or shortly after June 2015. While they are not yet in service, a Beretta representative at DSEI 2015 has confirmed that the final production model will be ready for the Italian military by the end of this year. The Italian military allocated 2.5 million EUR for ARX 200 rifles in 2014, with six anticipated orders of 120, 210, 210, 90, 270, and 270 rifles (total: 1,170 rifles). This Italian Ministry of Defence document discusses a purchase of 800 rifles for Italian special operations forces (SOF) in support of Progetto Soldato Futuro(SOFUTRA), the Italian Army’s future soldier programme.

The rifles will be issued on a one-per-section basis, and employed by an ‘expert marksman’ (tiratore esperto), with expected engagement ranges of 600 to 800 metres. It will remain fully compatible with components of SOFUTRA, including the recently-adopted GLX 160 grenade launcher and associated Grenade Launcher Fire Control System (GLFCS).

Beretta ARX 200 Technical Specifications



Calibre 7.62 x 51 mm
(configurable for 5.56 x 45 mm & 7.62 x 39 mm)
Locking system Locked breech – Rotating bolt
Operating system Gas piston
Barrel and rifling 16” free-floated barrel
4 right-handed grooves at a pitch of 279mm (11”)
Magazine 20 round, polymer
Adapter available for SR-25 type magazines
Length Extended stock: 1000 mm
Collapsed stock: 890 mm
Folded stock: 730 mm
Weight (without magazine) 4.5 kg


Beretta ARX 200 at DSEI 2015






ARX 200 photos copyright of ARES. ARX Carbine photo from here. Steiner-Optics ICS image from here. Technical specifications and side profile image of ARX 200 taken from Beretta’s promotional material (image has been adjusted for clarity).

1 – Originally designated the ‘Innovative Combat Sight’, and referred to in Beretta’s ARX 200 pamphlet at DSEI as the ‘Innovative Steiner Combat Sight’

@Horus @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7

I think Barreta and western rifles are expensive to procure in large quantity