Pakistan’s response to Indian Cold Start doctrine

[Kompromat]

wait a sec.this guy is bragging about Spada-2000(25 km ranged SAM) and F-7???

Spada-2000 is one of the most advanced 'area defense' systems on the market. It is highly effective in shooting down high speed cruise missiles and jets. Please read the specs before trolling.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Spada-2000 is one of the most advanced 'area defense' systems on the market. It is highly effective in shooting down high speed cruise missiles and jets. Please read the specs before trolling.

yeah..I know.but a defence journo is bragging about a point Defence missile while opponent has standoff missile is something I think is foolishness.what about credible long range SAM??I guess one point Defence missile decreases its need,right??

 

[The SC]

If Pakistan was in any way in league with India, it would have not been a terrorist state.

Obviously that is not the case is it?

Also if you call experience as in fighting with wild gunmen inside pakistan for 10 years and still nit able to defeat them, very poor trained indeed.

Not so fast again, Americans who are supposed to be the best trained soldiers couldn't defeat terrorism as you call it either, so your rhetoric must be based on some bias for sure.
Besides that, this terror thing was Afghan related, it started with American invasion of Afghanistan, and the pouring of more than two million afghan refugees to Pakistan and the relations between Afghan groups and Pakistani groups , in a few words they are the results of American hypocrisy, they went to fight the same people they have supported when the Russians were there. it was obvious that it won't work, so the reasons must have been some other hidden agenda of the Americans. Pipelines, natural resources, like the more than 3 trillion dollars worth of that have been discovered in Afghanistan, and so on.

yeah..I know.but a defence journo is bragging about a point Defence missile while opponent has standoff missile is something I think is foolishness.what about credible long range SAM??I guess one point Defence missile decreases its need,right??

There is the RQ-9 (coming soon to Pakistan) for that role , and in integrated Air defense scheme both will play their roles.

 

[The SC]

Nothing has been finalised yet by the time they will get those 6 subamrines.We will have additional 6 nuclear subs+6scorpene subs+some next generation subs.

And in surface vessels India is far ahead of Pakistan gap will also increase more.Moreover the order are full for Indian shipyards and we will induct at least 50 ships in next 10 years.

Good for India, I do not think that Pakistanis wants to match you ship for ship, since they do not have the same long coast lines to defend, but just enough for their own coast lines, plus some offensive capabilities with another optional strike capability.
In different words they will have a more efficient navy proportionally speaking, since the Indian navy, as big as it is has to defend huge coastal lines and has to be dispersed over them.

 

[Kompromat]

Not so fast, Pakistan is getting 6 Qing class Submarines with AIP and electrical propulsion, plus more frigates and destroyers to come. I do not know if they can match your indigenous nuclear subs or not but they have almost the same tonnage around 5000 tons each submerged, with missile capabilities too, so where this widening has occurred.

Following facts have to be taken into account in regards to CSD.

• Pakistan can declare Jihad as a state, making it a religious responsibility to its 85 million arm bearing citizens to mobilize to the battlefield. Indian forces would not be able able to outnumber Pakistani combatants, nor the Pakistani Govt is going to be able to keep its armed civilians locked in their homes in wake of an Indian invasion.
  
  The possibility of Pakistani civilians starting a 'people's war' is more than likely as we are not going to wait around till the enemy has reached our chokepoints. Civilians are trained in firearms, use a single 7.62mm round and have access to large amounts of spare ammo, spare parts and so on. They will make sure, that no enemy soldier is left alive.
  
  
• Pakistan has a stockpile of ~ 50,000 TOW/Baktar Shikan class guided ATGMs. They will prove pivotal in defeating invading armor. For the numbers sake ex-Army retirees can also be mobilized and civilians can be taught to use ATGMs. If we can teach Afghans, Bosnians and Kosovars to do so, we can do it to our own citizens too.
  
  
• Pakistan has 'functional' cruise missile deterrent, to strike deep on Northern India's critical infrastructure i.e power grids, oil dumps, military installations, naval stations, weapons depots, dams, food storage, industrial units, stock markets, telecom infrastructure and so on. India will be forced to fight at home.
  
  
• 80% of Pakistani armor has Night and fog fighting capability compared to 20-25% Indian armor.
  
  
• Pakistan will be able to mobilize its total air and naval power while India cannot, since it has to allocate assets to China and Bangladesh fronts.
  
  
• Pakistan can have Chinese nuclear and conventional subs and other naval assets prowl its waters if needed.
  
  
• Pakistan will activate its sleeper cells inside India to exert public pressure on the Indian govt and military.
  
  
• With Modi in power with China and Middle east on its back, Pakistan can gather international support to avert such an attempt.
  
  
• Pakistan is a Major non NATO ally to the United States, even though the US won't help Pakistan militarily nor would they stand on our side, they most surely would have to apply diplomatic/economic arms twisting on India to save its own face in front of its other MNNA states.
  
  
  Pakistan has a potent conventional and diplomatic deterrent to CSD, the need for using tactical nukes won't arise. We will defeat the Indian forces through sheer and brutal projection of non nuclear weapons i.e Thermobaric, Cluster, Biological and Chemical warheads plus the conventional firepower with an aim of inflicting unacceptable numbers of casualties while fighting under the nuclear umbrella. India would be left with no choice but to either declare a full scale war, no one will win or accept defeat and withdraw.
  
  Best Regards.

yeah..I know.but a defence journo is bragging about a point Defence missile while opponent has standoff missile is something I think is foolishness.what about credible long range SAM??I guess one point Defence missile decreases its need,right??

SPADA-2000 is for defending installations of national importance, so is our HQ-9 inventory. #Pakistan is a small country and we don't really need a SAM wall especially when we can mobilize our entire air fleet to defend our airspace while India cannot.

 

[kaykay]

Good for India, I do not think that Pakistanis wants to match you ship for ship, since they do not have the same long coast lines to defend, but just enough for their own coast lines, plus some offensive capabilities with another optional strike capability.
In different words they will have a more efficient navy proportionally speaking, since the Indian navy, as big as it is has to defend huge coastal lines and has to be dispersed over them.

Very flawed logic. Why India would disperse Its navy on all coasts when Pakistan has no capability to attack eastern coasts or even lower half of western coast. Only if still you'd have East Pakistan then may be but not anymore. Anyway your navy is a defensive force with very limited offensive capability.

 

[GR!FF!N]

SPADA-2000 is for defending installations of national importance, so is our HQ-9 inventory. #Pakistan is a small country and we don't really need a SAM wall especially when we can mobilize our entire air fleet to defend our airspace while India cannot.

you must be joking,right??no country defends its entire airspace with fighter jets.thats what a credible air defence for.even then,in case of CSD,what kind of operation PAF could provide if they're busy to repel enemy fighters and not providing air cover to their ground force??plus,a good co-ordinated counterattack is enough to bogged down PAF.in 1971 too,PAF couldn't provide support to the army.even PA knows,in case of CSD,it'd be tough job to handle IA+IAF punch,thus,resorted to "Tactical Nuke" threat.

but then,CSD is an imaginary threat.

 

[OrionHunter]

THERE IS NO SUCH 'COLD START' DOCTRINE IN THE INDIAN ARMY!! PERIOD!!!!!

How many times do these guys like the OP have to be told this? Their morbid fear of an Indian juggernaut across Pakistan and their delusions of a counter strike with tactical nukes and so on are getting to be hilarious!

Epic fail!

Nothing to discuss here. Move on..

 

[Kompromat]

you must be joking,right??no country defends its entire airspace with fighter jets.thats what a credible air defence for.even then,in case of CSD,what kind of operation PAF could provide if they're busy to repel enemy fighters and not providing air cover to their ground force??plus,a good co-ordinated counterattack is enough to bogged down PAF.in 1971 too,PAF couldn't provide support to the army.even PA knows,in case of CSD,it'd be tough job to handle IA+IAF punch,thus,resorted to "Tactical Nuke" threat.

but then,CSD is an imaginary threat.

PAF had only 14th squadron against an overwhelmingly large Indian fleet. They had no fuel, spares, supplies. PAF today is different and able to muster up its full strength to defend the airspace and provide CAS.

 

[GR!FF!N]

PAF had only 14th squadron against an overwhelmingly large Indian fleet. They had no fuel, spares, supplies. PAF today is different and able to muster up its full strength to defend the airspace and provide CAS.

what difference situation is now against then??some 68 F-16 and some 50 JF-17(doesn't comparable with frontline jets like F-16).rest are 3rd gen jets.it is facing some 200 Su-30 MKI,some 60 Mig-29,some 50 Mirage-2000/5.rest are 3rd gen fighters and ground attack jets(some 450).situation doesn't took too gloomy.in the past,India didn't have capability of proper stand off missiles,proper SEAD/DEAD capability.we have now.unless some extraordinary situation arise,situation is against you.in a set piece tank battle,it is even against you as India procured cluster bombs like CBU-105.no offence,but PAF is now playing catching up,where its opponent is budget.they needs too much equipment,but its not economically feasible.if PAF even could add some 50 4th gen jets in next 5-7 years,it'd be a big achievement,regarding that they had to start phasing out 3rd gen jets gradually.

 

[Kompromat]

what difference situation is now against then??some 68 F-16 and some 50 JF-17(doesn't comparable with frontline jets like F-16).rest are 3rd gen jets.it is facing some 200 Su-30 MKI,some 60 Mig-29,some 50 Mirage-2000/5.rest are 3rd gen fighters and ground attack jets(some 450).situation doesn't took too gloomy.in the past,India didn't have capability of proper stand off missiles,proper SEAD/DEAD capability.we have now.unless some extraordinary situation arise,situation is against you.in a set piece tank battle,it is even against you as India procured cluster bombs like CBU-105.no offence,but PAF is now playing catching up,where its opponent is budget.they needs too much equipment,but its not economically feasible.if PAF even could add some 50 4th gen jets in next 5-7 years,it'd be a big achievement,regarding that they had to start phasing out 3rd gen jets gradually.

Who will guard your 'rather large' airspace from the Chinese if IAF is focused on Pakistan entirely ?
Plus PAF's F/7P/PG - Mirage III/V fleet is not yet obsolete.

 

[gslv mk3]

[

Following facts have to be taken into account in regards to CSD.

• Pakistan can declare Jihad as a state, making it a religious responsibility to its 85 million arm bearing citizens to mobilize to the battlefield. Indian forces would not be able able to outnumber Pakistani combatants, nor the Pakistani Govt is going to be able to keep its armed civilians locked in their homes in wake of an Indian invasion.
  
  The possibility of Pakistani civilians starting a 'people's war' is more than likely as we are not going to wait around till the enemy has reached our chokepoints. Civilians are trained in firearms, use a single 7.62mm round and have access to large amounts of spare ammo, spare parts and so on. They will make sure, that no enemy soldier is left alive.
  
  
• Pakistan has a stockpile of ~ 50,000 TOW/Baktar Shikan class guided ATGMs. They will prove pivotal in defeating invading armor. For the numbers sake ex-Army retirees can also be mobilized and civilians can be taught to use ATGMs. If we can teach Afghans, Bosnians and Kosovars to do so, we can do it to our own citizens too.
  
  
• Pakistan has 'functional' cruise missile deterrent, to strike deep on Northern India's critical infrastructure i.e power grids, oil dumps, military installations, naval stations, weapons depots, dams, food storage, industrial units, stock markets, telecom infrastructure and so on. India will be forced to fight at home.
  
  
• 80% of Pakistani armor has Night and fog fighting capability compared to 20-25% Indian armor.
  
• Pakistan will be able to mobilize its total air and naval power while India cannot, since it has to allocate assets to China and Bangladesh fronts.
  
  
• Pakistan can have Chinese nuclear and conventional subs and other naval assets prowl its waters if needed.
  
• Pakistan will activate its sleeper cells inside India to exert public pressure on the Indian govt and military.
  
  
• With Modi in power with China and Middle east on its back, Pakistan can gather international support to avert such an attempt
  
• 
  Pakistan has a potent conventional and diplomatic deterrent to CSD, the need for using tactical nukes won't arise. We will defeat the Indian forces through sheer and brutal projection of non nuclear weapons i.e Thermobaric, Cluster, Biological and Chemical warheads plus the conventional firepower with an aim of inflicting unacceptable numbers of casualties while fighting under the nuclear umbrella. India would be left with no choice but to either declare a full scale war, no one will win or accept defeat and withdraw.
  
  Best Regards.

All wishful thinking...including training civilians.As for cruise missile deterrence,there would be Brahmos & conventionally armed Shaurya's to do the same with Pakistan.And there is no need to mobilize India's total air and naval power.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Who will guard your 'rather large' airspace from the Chinese if IAF is focused on Pakistan entirely ?
Plus PAF's F/7P/PG - Mirage III/V fleet is not yet obsolete.

reliance over PLAAF,I see.where was PLAAF in 1971 war,or USN who fled before Russian SSN??IAF already formulated how to counter this kind of "Possible Interference by PLAAF" by using bombing run in western sector even from far eastern and southern Indian Airbases.jets like Su-30 has massive range which enables to operate them from anywhere.Mid Air refueller helped them further.

India already tested this kind of concepts under fully network centriced condition in several exercise like Iron Fist,Eklavya and Live Wire only previous year.

 

[Kompromat]

reliance over PLAAF,I see.where was PLAAF in 1971 war,or USN who fled before Russian SSN??IAF already formulated how to counter this kind of "Possible Interference by PLAAF" by using bombing run in western sector even from far eastern and southern Indian Airbases.jets like Su-30 has massive range which enables to operate them from anywhere.Mid Air refueller helped them further.

India already tested this kind of concepts under fully network centriced condition in several exercise like Iron Fist,Eklavya and Live Wire only previous year.

Did i say that PLAAF will fight for Pakistan?

My question is if IAF is going to allocate all of its assets to Pakistan while leaving the field empty for PLAAF inside India. IAF also has to take into account, its own balance of power vis-a-vis China.

 

[Informant]

Damn my farts last night would be equivalent to 2-3 kT bumbs