Pakistan's Overbearing Army

[IceCold]

I see some members again raising the same old bogeys to justify every sin.

No other countries have nuclear weapons in South Asia. Where has India gone and done a Gaza? Pakistan supported Taliban almost did that in Afghanistan in the futile quest for "strategic depth" and destroyed that country for decades. Even now that overreach is leading to the deployment of state supported terrorism as a means to get the elusive strategic balance with India.

Then the pet peeve Kashmir where despite having committed every sin in the world and made the life of the Kashmiris hell for decades by sending in terrorists of all shades and hues, one still has the gall to talk of morality and legality. The same endless raag of long defunct UN resolutions is sung again and again, to what end! It was a non binding UN resolution that could never be implemented for reasons repeated endlessly. There must be hundreds of such resolutions if not thousands. Who cares!

Just because one has convinced oneself of some assumptions by endlessly repeating some self righteous arguments in one's mind doesn't make the assumptions true. To start questioning those assumptions may seem impossible and will likely negate everything one has learnt and imbibed all his life, it may still be necessary.

The current posture of Pakistan is not sustainable. You need others to subsidize you for maintaining the posture. Not a small subsidy at all. My understanding is it is to the tune of 25% of your military budget or more. That carries costs which may be more than you may want to bear at times. The others may lose interest at other times.

If we leave all else, it may ultimately come to the capability of Pakistan to sustain that posture. I doubt they can despite all their efforts and likely causing great harm in the process. To themselves and to others in the region!

I feel Pakistan will need to change this posture. It is up to them to opt for a managed change that is less painful or one that is forced on them by circumstances beyond control. That may not be painless at all!

Let me tell you to stop right here. The hatred filled in you seems to have clouded your judgement. Pakistan was not the only country to support talibans, why did you forgot to mention the americans here or the CIA? Also Pakistan's action resulted into the destruction of afghanistan, again you couldnt be more wrong because if anone who left Afghanistan alone was the US and pakistan alone did not had the resources that were required for the construction of a wartorn country. We however did all we could and it makes absolute sense that what little we would do, we made sure that our interest are served, thats the rule of day. Tell me one country that does the opposite or would have done the opposite. Wasnt US doing the same when it supported the talibans against communism and is still doing example supporting dictatorship in Egypt while ranting about democracy for the rest of the world. Same stands for India.
SO what is all this whining for, it is because of this typical mindset of Indians, that we can never move further in peace related process between India and pakistan.

 

[IceCold]

I interpret that as meaning that any talk of any sort of parity will become even more absurd than it is now. No one (except may be China for some more time for her own vested interests) will care for such tripe.

You couldnt be more wrong again. The reason is that you have completely neglected Pakistan's importence in the world today and its importence in the future world. Pakistan holds its own importence which India could never counter both strategically and politicaly and this term of maintaing parity will always be there serving the purpose as the words is meant for.

 

[RabzonKhan]

We don't have to be anything. A certain ethnic group dominates the Army and by extension the Country. Whenever they feel slighted they pull the gears and enrich themselves while the country languishes.

You could not be more wrong! Please don’t blame average Punjabi for the sins of the few power-hungry, selfish dictators or show me (with links) how have the ordinary Punjabi benefited from the military rule?

Here are some facts you may what to look at:

1. Out of the three dictators, two (Ayub and Musharraf) were non-Punjabis.

2. The MQM was the strongest supporter of Pervez Musharraf’s regime for eight years.

3. Benazir and Zardari, without any question, are the biggest beneficiary of NRO.

4. 17th amendment was a gift to the dictator from Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Qazi Husain, Note, both are non-Punjabis.

5. Military land was given to Akram Durrani and Maulana Fazlur Rehman’s (MMA mullahs) close associates for their services to the dictator.

6. And lets not for get that the largest demonstrations against musharraf took place in Punjab.

 

[RabzonKhan]

Pakistan needs to be a military state because we have a very hostile neighbor to the east, who hates our very existance and a very unstable war stricken neighbor to the west who knows nothing except on how to fight. The military needs to be in control because of where Pakistan is located in the world map, if Pakistan was near Switzerland it would be a different story and we wouldn't even need a military.

I believe strongly that the military should never engage in politics, it’s a recipe for disaster.

We were under military rule (Ayub and Yahya) when we lost half of our country. Today, we are reaping what Zia (AQ, Taliban, sectarian terrorism, Klashnikov and heroin culture) sowed. Under Musharraf the AQ and Taliban terrorists had taken over many parts of FATA and Swat. Terrorism also increased markedly in Boluchistan under his rule.

 

[Vinod2070]

Let me tell you to stop right here. The hatred filled in you seems to have clouded your judgement. Pakistan was not the only country to support talibans, why did you forgot to mention the americans here or the CIA? Also Pakistan's action resulted into the destruction of afghanistan, again you couldnt be more wrong because if anone who left Afghanistan alone was the US and pakistan alone did not had the resources that were required for the construction of a wartorn country. We however did all we could and it makes absolute sense that what little we would do, we made sure that our interest are served, thats the rule of day. Tell me one country that does the opposite or would have done the opposite. Wasnt US doing the same when it supported the talibans against communism and is still doing example supporting dictatorship in Egypt while ranting about democracy for the rest of the world. Same stands for India.
SO what is all this whining for, it is because of this typical mindset of Indians, that we can never move further in peace related process between India and pakistan.

You may disagree with my opinions but if you want to accuse me of hatred based on that post, do substantiate that!

Regarding Taliban, do let me know when anyone other than Pakistan supported them. Are you confusing them with the Afghan fighters before 1989 when the Russians had left. The Taliban was born much later.

So in the light of this little fact, please restate your facts so I may reply to your charges.

 

[Vinod2070]

You couldnt be more wrong again. The reason is that you have completely neglected Pakistan's importence in the world today and its importence in the future world. Pakistan holds its own importence which India could never counter both strategically and politicaly and this term of maintaing parity will always be there serving the purpose as the words is meant for.

I have not disregarded Pakistan's importance at all. It will remain an important country for the region and for the world.

Parity is a different issue. Even now, no one believes that we have parity. The hyphenation has been left behind for good now, never to return.

If you remember, some years (lets make it decades) back many in Pakistan believed that they could defeat India in a war. That is why you always heard of that 1:10 theory to get over the disparity in our sizes. Those People did believe in their military superiority with a passion. They did believe that being Muslims they are more warlike and militarily superior and the Hindus of India would be no match.

Then as India started coming into it's own, the talk suddenly vanished. Now it is no longer mainstream. Now most people talk of maintaining per capita parity and the military posture has also changed accordingly. Not even the most die hard general would now believe they can beat India in a war.

Just extrapolate the same trend over a decade or two and you will see a great divergence. I think it will be good for Pakistan and it will surely be good for India and the region when this obvious fact is internalized and gets translated into policies and actions.

PS: When I said no one would believe that Pakistan can beat India in a war, that did not include Zaid Hamid and his camp followers.

 

[SSGPA1]

Personally I think the future Pakistan Army should be reduced to 250 000 regulars...all very well trained, fully equipped and capable of handling all situations - ranging from conventional war-fighting to counter-insurgency to peace-keeping/occupation.

i would definately support this without the Zia-ist element since i have "lived" that culture!

And you will write checks to the families of other 450K??

Who the helli is going to support all men and women who will loose their jobs.

Anyone can have an opinion or a way of thinking, as long as they follow the discipline of Army and orders of their commanders!

Just because someone supports Zia or Musharraf, shouldn't be the criteria for someone to loose or keep his job!

 

[S-2]

I'll stand by my thoughts and also offer a litmus test.

Your military will no longer be "overbearing" when, hat in hand, it offers itself before your parliament to justify it's budget, fully prepared to submit to the will of the government in the design of such...over and over again.

That means justifying missions, equipment, personnel actions, and all that you see U.S. armed forces officers doing daily on the well-beaten path between Capitol Hill and the Pentagon. That's civilian authority/oversight and it's utterly missing.

Oh! BTW, oversight is an acquired skill- an art if you will, and won't be effectively exercised overnight. In fact, your military may bear the implied responsibility of training your legislators on the complexities and nuances that need to be assessed. It's in your interests, of course, should you wish that intelligent decisions be rendered. It's also in your military's interests not to patronize and you'll be likely bitten if so.

As of now, the Pakistani military defines the mission, sets the discussion, and writes itself the cheque. There's a lot between those words that needs to change and I highly doubt, given conditioning, that change will come easily if at all. Failing to effect decisive functional change will be corrosively destructive.

Long embedded entitlement will be a "bear" to overcome.

 

[muse]

American friends, welling they may be, find it difficult to imagine that there may be prescriptions other than they use or devise. All problems are not the same, therefore solutions ought not be the same.

Gentle American friends offer critiques that question the effectiveness of the Fauj - perhaps they will, one day, also use the same lens to question the effectiveness of their own forces - after all, if the critique us$10Billion has not brought much from the Fauj is valid, is the critique that US$100 billion a year in Afghanistan, not been very effective, also not worth examining??

Perhaps then a more reasonable framework of critique may become norm.

 

[S-2]

"Comparing the world's premier con artists and secret government with that of Pakistan's small yet efficient fighting force is a joke."

I see that you're a tad self-righteously upset.

I'm very sorry that parliamentary oversight upsets you. Given the generally abysmal performance rendered to date by a nation of your size, resources and human talent, I'd imagine that you'd be eager to shift the centers of power away from failed institutions that have presided over this heinous state of affairs. Budget oversight is certainly one way to rectify these issues and is commonplace among more successful nations where actions and decisions must be justified to elected officials who, in turn, must answer to a reasonably curious and alert press and voting public.

Just a thought given it appears that you may not be able to provide for your own defense without the assistance of others. That's not a good place to find your nation after sixty plus years of self-governance largely by or through the permission of your armed forces.

Actually, I've just thought of this- I apologize for altering the tone of this thread. Perhaps if I withdraw, you will collectively feel more free to discuss your army's less than perfect performance and national choke-hold on policy. I understand that it may be more difficult to present anything but a united front when confronted with these blatantly obvious failings by an outsider, particularly an American whose nation's aid and other assistance is critical to your immediate survival.

Blame us all you wish (and you so terribly wish so) but you've a war today on your western borders, a new democratic government, and too many citizens pre-disposed to see something other than that to lead you. If so, it's likely that our worthless and rubberstamping congress will not view matters favorably and radically alter your landscape in ways you may not be able to imagine.

Nuff said. I'll withdraw and read with interest what you've to say about yourselves and the type of armed forces which you'd like to see in your future. You can waste your energy replying to me and I'll certainly read your comments but I'm done on this topic so don't. Save it for your comments about your military. If more of the same appeals to you then drop out too as you've nothing to add that's constructive.

Have a good chat, folks.

 

[fatman17]

I see some members again raising the same old bogeys to justify every sin.

No other countries have nuclear weapons in South Asia. Where has India gone and done a Gaza? Pakistan supported Taliban almost did that in Afghanistan in the futile quest for "strategic depth" and destroyed that country for decades. Even now that overreach is leading to the deployment of state supported terrorism as a means to get the elusive strategic balance with India.

Then the pet peeve Kashmir where despite having committed every sin in the world and made the life of the Kashmiris hell for decades by sending in terrorists of all shades and hues, one still has the gall to talk of morality and legality. The same endless raag of long defunct UN resolutions is sung again and again, to what end! It was a non binding UN resolution that could never be implemented for reasons repeated endlessly. There must be hundreds of such resolutions if not thousands. Who cares!

Just because one has convinced oneself of some assumptions by endlessly repeating some self righteous arguments in one's mind doesn't make the assumptions true. To start questioning those assumptions may seem impossible and will likely negate everything one has learnt and imbibed all his life, it may still be necessary.

The current posture of Pakistan is not sustainable. You need others to subsidize you for maintaining the posture. Not a small subsidy at all. My understanding is it is to the tune of 25% of your military budget or more. That carries costs which may be more than you may want to bear at times. The others may lose interest at other times.

If we leave all else, it may ultimately come to the capability of Pakistan to sustain that posture. I doubt they can despite all their efforts and likely causing great harm in the process. To themselves and to others in the region!

I feel Pakistan will need to change this posture. It is up to them to opt for a managed change that is less painful or one that is forced on them by circumstances beyond control. That may not be painless at all!

spare me your self-righteousness! people sitting in glass-houses shouldnt throw stones!
youre off the mark here Vinod!
very dissapointing indeed!

 

[Vinod2070]

spare me your self-righteousness! people sitting in glass-houses shouldnt throw stones!
youre off the mark here Vinod!
very dissapointing indeed!

Where is the self-righteousness? I agree that there is no need to throw stones but I didn't throw any!

I just offered my perspective on the topic and some very self righteous posts accusing that India would do a Gaza in Pakistan or some self righteous rhetoric on Kashmir.

I may be way off the mark. Would be good to know why you think so?

 

[Kasrkin]

Maybe because you’re ridiculously naïve and arrogant; quite literally saying “who cares” in regards to completely authentic and binding UN RESOLUTIONS and not realizing what a dangerous and hypocritical precedent you are setting for nation that furiously dreams about getting a seat in the UN Security Council and “Superpower-hood”. I suppose you wouldn’t be too happy if Pakistan ignores UN resolutions about LeT/JuD as well eh? You (subconsciously or consciously) feel that India doesn’t need to apply any of these standards to itself, this is what sir Fatman117 meant when he said ‘glass-houses’. All this crap ^^^^^, what is it if not throwing stones? Pak, Saudis, Americans and some others supported the Taliban government, wow what a sin!!! I suppose India’s own support for the drug/war lords/equally if not more brutal human right abusers of the Northern Alliance is perfectly legitimate right? Oh of course it is, because you’re India.

This thread has become a compilation of a lot of unsubstantiated, unproven, demeaning, completely rhetorical anti-Pakistani BS.

 

[Bane Blade]

The Inconvinent truth is that the Pakistan Army has become an overspending organization but being a citizen of Pakistan I wouldn't mind that because our defence against our neighbours has to be strong. Yet still there are places where the military seems like a corrupt organization made to profit for itself and some officers seem to spend more than what they seem to earn but I think that is a totally different issue altogether. What we need to understand is that the current state Pakistan is in economically the army does look like an overspending organization and maybe better relations with our neighbours may lead to a cut in the military budget but I think that the top brass of the PA would never allow such a situation to be created for their importance in the power houses and fulfillment of their pockets. If they do I think people would stop casting a shadow of doubt that if the PA is even for the betterment of Pakistan or just to suck all its budget and paint a picture of defence need.

 

[must7]

Actually, I've just thought of this- I apologize for altering the tone of this thread. Perhaps if I withdraw, you will collectively feel more free to discuss your army's less than perfect performance and national choke-hold on policy. I understand that it may be more difficult to present anything but a united front when confronted with these blatantly obvious failings by an outsider, particularly an American whose nation's aid and other assistance is critical to your immediate survival.

S-2, contrary to your claim it was the Pakistani army who took out the steam out of USSR ! US armed forces have been bankrupting USA and from decade to decade it has been a parasite on the world economies.

Had Saddam's stunt of Kuwait not happened, USA would not have bleeded the Arab kitties to come clean and at the same time get fundings for the next generation of weapons.

& you here preach us about our Army who have been under sanctions on several occasions with so much of interference of US and still managed to have a sustainable environment vis-a-vis the enemy.

Now coming back to the point, well Sir, we don't need any money from the US but US also has to stop meddling in our affairs.

Pre 9/11 when Gen. Musharaff had taken over and we had time to work internally, we were able to save more than 3.7billions US in our forex without any support of whatsoever from the US. Infact we lost precious time in trade & export while fighting your WOT.

& please don't forget that Osama bin Laden was a CIA operative & today's majority Afghan which later became Taleban were the Mujhadeen which CIA created by opening up madrasas in Pakistan.

The cost of making USA a super power is being paid by Pakistan even today and the worst part is that in Afghan wars first 3 years USA was scared $hit of USSR and to show it's neutrality to USSR, they had to buy Russian used equipment from PLO & Israel !

& here they will preach how our army is over burdening us ! Yeah .. not Zardari & Durrani & Haqqani (the US agents) but our army ! WOW ...

We have a urdu saying "Ulta Choor kotwal ko dant" - Translation "The theif shouting at the policeman".