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Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Development | News and Discussions

But country like Pakistan ...out of question. Pakistan has to built and modify according to its need. Just like Israel do.

Never said it was or wasn't right or within Pakistan's necessity or capability, just want to refute any notion that nuke-subs will cede firepower superiority to a mini-sub.

Rather then opt for a weapon that's more suited to supporting special operations forces covertly, as mini-subs tend to be used for, it's best to procure conventionally sized conventional attack submarines that can also sling nuclear weapons, as any Tomahawk capable boat theoretically could or as Israel's Dolphin class does.

Pakistan is largely already doing this with its acquisition of S20 (supposedly).

china+submarine-1.jpg


Mini-subs like this Vietnamese, North Korean designed Yugo Class simply lack the endurance, size and capacity to make effective use of nuclear weapons.

Yugo1.jpg


They're too small. Really small.

Yugo3.jpg


I'm not advocating against mini-subs, both the US and Russia still use them - though these days the US mainly uses mini-mini-subs called SDVs, but Russia still makes use of special missions submarines for intelligence gathering and covert insertions:

Ru_Piranha1.jpg


Supporting covert ops is a much better use of a system that's limited in size, payload, endurance and performance.
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Not sure if you're familiar with the name or not, but I'm this person:

https://defence.pk/members/svensvensonov.163324/

Former USN submariner:D
 
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Never said it was or wasn't right or within Pakistan's necessity or capability, just want to refute any notion that nuke-subs will cede firepower superiority to a mini-sub.

Rather then opt for a weapon that's more suited to supporting special operations forces covertly, as mini-subs tend to be used for, it's best to procure conventionally sized conventional attack submarines that can also sling nuclear weapons, as any Tomahawk capable boat theoretically could or as Israel's Dolphin class does.

Pakistan is largely already doing this with its acquisition of S20 (supposedly).

china+submarine-1.jpg


Mini-subs like this Vietnamese, North Korean designed Yugo Class simply lack the endurance, size and capacity to make effective use of nuclear weapons.

Yugo1.jpg


They're too small. Really small.

Yugo3.jpg


I'm not advocating against mini-subs, both the US and Russia still use them - though these days the US mainly uses mini-mini-subs called SDVs, but Russia still makes use of special missions submarines for intelligence gathering and covert insertions:

Ru_Piranha1.jpg


Supporting covert ops is a much better use of a system that's limited in size, payload, endurance and performance.
...

Not sure if you're familiar with the name or not, but I'm this person:

https://defence.pk/members/svensvensonov.163324/

Former USN submariner:D
interesting.......lolzz....who kill the Red October ? incident or accident or classified ...
 
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mini nuclear submarine does not fulfill our requirements, PN should come up with some better solution of long range and more weapons to install and fire.

Insha Allah within two year S20 is coming with nuclear fitted Babur cruise missile and with in 5 years local Nuclear submarines will come out to secure our sea area and to tackle with enemy's devil plan.
 
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SUBMARINES?







Yesterday, we took a look at the impact the Indian Navy’s first nuclear-powered ballistic submarine (SSBN) – the INS Arihant – would have on the strategic dynamics of South Asia. Besides briefly overviewing the Arihant’s capabilities and the advantages it confers to India, we also tried to determine if Pakistan requires an SSBN or even nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) of its own. We offered an understanding of why SSN/SSBN are sought by other navies, their benefits, and their limitations, especially in the tactical sense given the heavy concentration of anti-submarine warfare (ASW) assets in South Asia. Before continuing onto this piece, it would be worthwhile to give the previous article a quick read, especially since it offers valuable context in terms of the question: “does Pakistan have a strategic need for SSBNs?”

Pakistan’s pursuit of assured nuclear second strike capability from land, air and sea has been a cornerstone strategic policy. While its land-based strike forces are expansive (via ballistic missiles of varying ranges of up to 2750km), its air and sea-based deterrence capabilities are only beginning to form in earnest. The availability of lightweight plutonium warheads has made it possible for the Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan Navy to deliver a nuclear strike using cruise missiles, which in turn can be delivered using aircraft as well as conventional attack submarines. For example, it is believed that the Pakistan Navy’s next-generation air-independent propulsion (AIP) powered submarines (SSP) being acquired from China will be configured to deliver a submarine-launch version of the Babur.

While SSPs with nuclear-tipped Babur SLCMs (short for submarine-launched cruise missiles) will give Pakistan assured second strike capability, that capability is limited in terms of range. Yes, Pakistan’s land-based ballistic missiles can reach any part of India, but the Babur SLCM cannot. Its range is limited to 700km. That is a problem, but does it mean that SSBNs are the solution?

If Pakistan could somehow muster several billion dollars for perhaps a couple of SSN or SSBN, then why would it not be able to put such money towards longer range SLCM instead? In fact, such a route would be much cheaper (and more attainable) than an incredibly complex system built upon many complex parts (i.e. SSN/SSBN). Granted, the launch tubes in the new Chinese SSPs would have need to be tailored for such a cruise missile, but this is not an insurmountable task.

It is advisable – if not likely – that Pakistan take the route of seriously investing in its cruise missiles. More capable and longer range missiles are scalable, they can be of use to Pakistan’s land-based and aerial delivery assets (maybe even frigates one day). Moreover, such missiles will be a necessity irrespective of platform, even an SSN or SSBN would need them in order to actually be a strategic threat. If Pakistan’s strategic interests do not sit in very distant lands, then why would it need SSNs and SSBNs? It just needs longer-range cruise missiles.

Another factor to consider is Pakistan’s capacity to actually produce an SSN or SSBN. Whatever opinion one has about Pakistan’s abilities, at the end of the day, it will need foreign help. To be put it bluntly, there is not enough internal investment in research and development (R&D) or advanced industry (e.g. safe and effective miniature reactors, shipbuilding materials, propulsion, etc) to allow Pakistan to roll out an SSBN. In fact, even India’s Arihant is the culmination of over 30 years of consistent work, a result acquired from a build-up of extensive investment, trial and error, learning, and proactive leadership. In the best case scenario, it would take Pakistan several decades to come up with a fully capable SSBN; but we are not in the best case scenario, and Pakistan will need help. Is that help forthcoming?

In comparison to the U.S., China has only begun to make serious inroads in its own SSN and SSBN work, but there is considerable work left to do, especially in areas such as noise-reduction. That said, it also has to be understood that SSN/SSBN technology is a crown jewel, and powers – including China – are rarely ever ready to part with their crown jewels. As a general point, it would be erroneous to suggest that China would be willing to sell anything and everything to Pakistan, especially on flexible payment terms, which is indicative of Pakistan’s relatively weak economic ability.

However, on the other hand, making an SSN or SSBN available to Pakistan could offer China some strategic benefits. For example, one could argue that such a factor in South Asia would require India to allocate a higher proportion of its naval assets towards Pakistan, thereby reducing the pressure being applied onto China in the Pacific Ocean. But then it needs to be asked, would China need an SSBN in order to pull this off? Why give Pakistan one or two SSBN when it can equip Pakistan with many more SSP and even multi-mission frigates? One could argue that a generally stronger naval presence on Pakistan’s end – one that does not require SSBNs – could induce additional pressure on India.

We can conclude from the above that (1) Pakistan requires a stronger naval presence, (2) it needs longer range cruise missiles, and (3) its ability to acquire an SSN or SSBN is limited. Furthermore, what is the point of an SSBN when there are no plans for long-range engagement? Where is Pakistan going to fight? Its main engagement theatre is the Arabian Sea, and that area can quickly become crowded with a whole host of friendly and enemy submarines, surface warships, and aircraft – i.e. a dense ASW presence. As opposed to offering a lot of added value, an SSBN could just become a vulnerable target.

With the above in mind, one should not conclude that Pakistan will not work on enhancing its strategic capabilities at sea. It is possible that an effort is underway to bring not only longer range cruise missiles to sea, but potentially even ballistic missiles. However, this does not need to depend on SSBNs, rather, it could emerge in the form of bigger conventionally powered AIP submarines.

For example, consider the Chinese Type 032. Although an experimental design meant for fine-tuning new submarine applications for the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), the 6600-ton Type 032 Qing-class is a large AIP-based conventional attack submarine. It boasts vertical launch systems (VLS) capable of launching cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles, and even ballistic missiles. While the Type 032 will probably not enter production, it is a testament to what is attainable in conventional attack submarine design.

If necessary, Pakistan could possibly seek a large AIP-submarine, one capable of launching submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM). Granted, work would have to be done in terms of designing a hull that is fast and capable (the Type 032 is on the slower side), but this (alongside an investment in SLBM as well as longer range SLCM) could be a more realistic route. In fact, it may even be ideal. Yes, it would not have the same range as a SSN or SSBN, but why would that be a concern for Pakistan if it is not planning to engage in very distant waters? A large conventional submarine would be cheaper, quieter, utilize mature AIP engines, and still provide Pakistan a sound sea-based deterrence.



- See more at: http://quwa.org/2016/05/12/part-2-will-pakistan-now-seek-nuclear-submarines/#sthash.prLZR5jJ.dpuf
 
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Why dont you guys want an aircraft carrier too? We have one since the 60s.

Wait, maybe a missile defence system too? We have it.

Oh wait, why not develope direct energy weapons like us?

Or maybe your very own GPS system like our Navic.

Do you guys really want to get into a weapons race with us?

Oh wait, you guys dont even have a destroyer.....
Pakistani doctrine is defensive in nature.
Carrier.................No need since Pak Navy has limited area to protect.
Missile defense system in Indo-Pak scenario may not be very effective considering the short flight time and distance.
Pakistan does operate capable surveillance and detection systems along with SAM's.
Pakistan is cash strapped but doesn't mean Pakistan doesn't have access to GPS satellite. Pakistan's access to the military grade Chinese Beidou-II (BDS-2) satellite navigation network is reliable and gets the job done.
Pakistan only acquires those weapons in parity, which create stability in the region.
In order to keep pace with Indian hegemonic ambitions, Pakistan needs to do smart work not "A measuring contest". You 'don't need destroyers to counter a destroyers'. Pakistan's latest Naval procurement's such as Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats and (AIP) equipped S-20 submarines are sufficient to supplement Pakistani existing naval force.
 
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Pakistani doctrine is defensive in nature.
Carrier.................No need since Pak Navy has limited area to protect.
Missile defense system in Indo-Pak scenario may not be very effective considering the short flight time and distance.
Pakistan does operate capable surveillance and detection systems along with SAM's.
Pakistan is cash strapped but doesn't mean Pakistan doesn't have access to GPS satellite. Pakistan's access to the military grade Chinese Beidou-II (BDS-2) satellite navigation network is reliable and gets the job done.
Pakistan only acquires those weapons in parity, which create stability in the region.
In order to keep pace with Indian hegemonic ambitions, Pakistan needs to do smart work not "A measuring contest". You 'don't need destroyers to counter a destroyers'. Pakistan's latest Naval procurement's such as Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats and (AIP) equipped S-20 submarines are sufficient to supplement Pakistani existing naval force.

Fun trolling aside, yes I see your point.

Many weapons and systems I listed were also defensive. Indias ultimate aim, i think, is to tip the nuclear balance. That means aquiring direct energy weapons, missile defence shields, etc to counter Pakistans nuke attack.
 
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Navy is a silent service. Literally. One can speculate all they like. Across the border, first there was the ATV, years in coming, then far from being commissioned into a weapon, and leased Russian boomers, from Chakra to current day. Pakistan navigated the Arabian littoral sub-surface successfully for 40+ years. Now, a new era is starting. Public will be told when necessary, or if even. Nuclear propulsion, or nuclear weapon delivery is no technical challenge for the country. How, when, and where it is deployed, will remain classified.
 
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@Sven, I think a French style solution is the best for us, which until the late 80's meant conventional attack subs and nuclear boomers.
 
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We have to work out on this issue on by phases.
First we have an agreement with old partner china for 8 subs.thats good way to move ahead,but we must make sire in the deal that it will be a complete technology transfer not like augosta the only Assembly becoz now if we will get every facility in technology transfer then it means we can build submarines as many as we have demand. Including the deisel electric engine propulsion and special steel technology torpedo tubes and most important vertical launch technology .then we can fullfill our requirments in future and also can export which reduce the cost and give finance to go further ahead. And on the other hand pakistan must ask nuclear scientists and engineer to start research on the miniature size reactor for submarines then we can replace the conventional power plant with this new develope nuclear plant but thats all can be possible through self sufficient not looking to others.becoz if we r paying then deal must be on our favour we must get the every thing or even get most of the technology
 
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first PN needs to induct 8 S20s to complete its conventional sub needs. then they may think of inducting a SSN but I doubt if they would.
 
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For now lets Focus on getting those 8 Subs from China with AIP ... later or somewhere between that deal we can lease one Nuclear Submarine from China .. and start work on our own N-Submarine Program by 2025' .. 11 AIP and CM with 1000kn Range will be much deadlier than noisy SSBN's ..
Apart from this, we need to have heavy DDG's .. again from China Type 52D's are best option for that .. alone with either Upgraded F-22p's or Type 54A's will give good area Coverage ..
8 Chinese Subs armed with 4-6 Babur range 1000KM can create Havoc ..

@Rashid Mahmood @Penguin your thoughts Sir

Pakistan Should maintain its Naval surface and submerged fleet in coming 5-7 years like this:

1- 11 AIP SSKs - 8 S20 capable to fire Babur(1000 Km variant) + 3 Augosta 90B
2- At least 2 SSBN till 2022
Total Submarine fleet shoudl be 13 or 14 till 2022

3- 15 Frigates of displacement ( 2500 tons Type F22P - 4000 Type 54A)
It could be 4 more F-22P and 4-6 Type 54A but with VLS SAM having atleast 50 Km range or more.

4- There should be 5 destroyers of 7500 tons displacement like Type 052D Destroyers with long range VLS SAM having range 100+ Km.

5- 10 missile boats equipped with CM-104K and Harpoon Block-II.

6- 10 boats for coastal and maritime security.

7- Two Squadrons of heavy weight long range figther-bomber.
 
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Pakistan Should maintain its Naval surface and submerged fleet in coming 5-7 years like this:

1- 11 AIP SSKs - 8 S20 capable to fire Babur(1000 Km variant) + 3 Augosta 90B
2- At least 2 SSBN till 2022
Total Submarine fleet shoudl be 13 or 14 till 2022

3- 15 Frigates of displacement ( 2500 tons Type F22P - 4000 Type 54A)
It could be 4 more F-22P and 4-6 Type 54A but with VLS SAM having atleast 50 Km range or more.

4- There should be 5 destroyers of 7500 tons displacement like Type 052D Destroyers with long range VLS SAM having range 100+ Km.

5- 10 missile boats equipped with CM-104K and Harpoon Block-II.

6- 10 boats for coastal and maritime security.

7- Two Squadrons of heavy weight long range figther-bomber.
You are proposing a wish list which is unrealistic. Firstly we aont have even our 8 subs ready and inducted by 2022 much less think of SSNs.
Secondly the ships are no where in site . Given a lapse of 3-4 yrs for the fisrt ship to appear after an order has been placed and roughly 1.5-2 yrs between each ship it will be a long time before you see a surface fleet of that size.
The destroyers are not happenning.
The twin engines are not on the cards though i would love them to be.
The total budget for the expansion would be 10 billion which would flatten our meek economy.
A
 
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Leasing a sub is better idea let give our sailors learn how to use monster underwater with chinese help

Only nuke country without nuke sub what a pitty shows how pissed of generals we have no idea what is needed most if we saved money of heli deals and f 16 could have leased nuke sub
 
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You are proposing a wish list which is unrealistic. Firstly we aont have even our 8 subs ready and inducted by 2022 much less think of SSNs.
Secondly the ships are no where in site . Given a lapse of 3-4 yrs for the fisrt ship to appear after an order has been placed and roughly 1.5-2 yrs between each ship it will be a long time before you see a surface fleet of that size.
The destroyers are not happenning.
The twin engines are not on the cards though i would love them to be.
The total budget for the expansion would be 10 billion which would flatten our meek economy.
A
Although this is a wish list but if you see in coming 5-7 or may be 5-10 years these would be required by navy to protect its maritime supply routes and also to protect vital assets on our coast line.
As far as my list is concerned, out of this list points 1,3,5 and 6 are Navy's immediate need and it also described by Navy that they need to expand their surface and submerged fleet as CPEC is progressing. This was from high level Navy commanders.
Yes SSN or SSBN, Destroyers and Twin-engine fighters are currently not on cards. But in future PN have to go for them because of massive expansion of Indian Navy.

But for next 5-7 Years even till 2025 i am confident that Navy will procure 8 S20 AIP SSks, atlaest 6 Frigates most probably updated F22Ps and may be other from USA or China, and offcource Missile boats are coming and the maritime security boats as well.
See if they procure only 6 more frigates in coming 5-7 years or till 2025 which is quite likely then the size of surface fleet will reach easily till 15 including old British Type-21 Frigates.

And for Missile boats, they are building in Pak and can be imported from China with CM-400 AKG.

For Last Point, Yes i am agree with you that twin engine is not on cards, but to overcome this issue currently JF-17 equiped with C-802 and CM-400 with IFR can supplement to some extend twin engine long range fighter bomber.
 
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Although this is a wish list but if you see in coming 5-7 or may be 5-10 years these would be required by navy to protect its maritime supply routes and also to protect vital assets on our coast line.
As far as my list is concerned, out of this list points 1,3,5 and 6 are Navy's immediate need and it also described by Navy that they need to expand their surface and submerged fleet as CPEC is progressing. This was from high level Navy commanders.
Yes SSN or SSBN, Destroyers and Twin-engine fighters are currently not on cards. But in future PN have to go for them because of massive expansion of Indian Navy.

But for next 5-7 Years even till 2025 i am confident that Navy will procure 8 S20 AIP SSks, atlaest 6 Frigates most probably updated F22Ps and may be other from USA or China, and offcource Missile boats are coming and the maritime security boats as well.
See if they procure only 6 more frigates in coming 5-7 years or till 2025 which is quite likely then the size of surface fleet will reach easily till 15 including old British Type-21 Frigates.

And for Missile boats, they are building in Pak and can be imported from China with CM-400 AKG.

For Last Point, Yes i am agree with you that twin engine is not on cards, but to overcome this issue currently JF-17 equiped with C-802 and CM-400 with IFR can supplement to some extend twin engine long range fighter bomber.
I think the time frames which you suggest are unrealistic. With our current inept Government how do you think we will raise the capital resources even in 10 yrs to support all the armaments. It is not just the navy but also other arms which will want resources which are and will remain scant for the forseeable future. People have wet dreams about the CPEC potentials but let us not count our chicks till they have HATCHED.The main problem is even with all the will the time frame may not be enough for the developemnts. To give you an example the Sub deal has been in discussion with the Chinese since 2011 and finally signed in 2015-6. add latency of 3-4 yrs and it will be a decade before you see the results of any buys that you make.People talk about getting ships from here and there but it is not happening and wont happen in the near future.
I think the reality is that we may have to think small, ie smaller 500tons missile boats and corvettes in the 15oo ton range so we can increase numbers while keeping costs down.
But lets see how this situation evolves.
Araz
 
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